Slightly provocative title here, but having been away from skiing for 15+ years and now catching up with the advances in technology and technique I'm really interested to get peoples perspectives on the following.
I've been watching the free ride world tour and various of the skiing videos that have come out over the past few years and whilst I can appreciate the difficulty of what people are doing - and freely acknowledge that it's not something I would ever be able to do - one thought keeps coming to me over and over, and that is if you put the jumps, cliffs and big drops aside the actual skiing part i.e. the turns and linking of turns looks rather ugly. Unless it's powder, I see lots of flapping tips and tails and much sliding around, which I assume is in part to do with the shorter skis and use of rocker tips & tails.
In the early 90s, like many I was blown away by the film 'The Blizzard of Ahh's', and looking back I realise it wasn't just the extreme skiing that left a lasting impression on me, it was also the sheer quality and beauty of the skiing technique within. Scott Schmidt and Glenn Plake skiing narrow, fully cambered skies and making it look so majestic. And for all the modern films I watch I still find myself coming back to watching that film and in particular Scott Schmidt over and over again. To me his technique is a delight to watch, still upper body, fluid and quick transition from edge to edge and those powerful carved turns (for which only a full camber ski would do, I'm sure). Where are those fluid powerful carved turns in the films of now? It all just seems to be a rush to get to the next hit and do as little turning as possible! Which seems daft, cause to my mind, if I'd spent 4 hours climbing up a mountain, I'd sure want to take longer than 30s to ski down it!
I love to watch ski movies, but with the advancement of ski technology and the drive for the bigger and bigger lines and hits it does seem that the basic foundations of carving and linking turns has taken a back seat, or indeed you could even say has gone backwards?
Anyway tell me what you think. Do you think this is a fair observation? Does some modern equipment make for lazy technique? Or am I just playing at bah humbug cause I'm not out there doing it myself?
Look forward to hearing your thoughts. Thanks.
PS. One other linked observation. Is it fair to say that in the 80s and 90s most 'extreme' skiers had a background in racing or mogul competition and so were coming into extreme skiing with strong race technique. Where as now it is possible to enter into the 'freestyle/ extreme' camp without the need to get involved with the more traditional race disciplines at all?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When you look at the old movies, take note of how much slow mo is used. Everything is really slowed down, so it looks more fluid and flowing. (NOT taking away anything from the Greg Stump etc movies, they're amazing!)
When things are played at normal speed, like FWT footage or more of today's ski edits, things naturally look more ragged.
Techniques have obviously changed too and the way skiers use the terrain on a mountain is very different today.
@Pdsmark, Not something I know very much about, but having looked at a few videos I'd definitely go with 'ugly' . Have a look at this one http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2h3n5q
I'm not saying it isn't daring or 'good' skiing, but it certainly isn't pretty and don't even get me started on the sort of people who call themselves 'Smoothy Sam'
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One thing I don't like is all the jump cuts and 2 second clips you get on a lot of more modern videos. Presumably because the skier wiped out just after the cut. Some videos are the exception and these really stand out for me. But that is just a personal opinion.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Interesting points folks, thanks. I'll look out for the slo mo thing @MagSeven. I think I'm just a bit of a sucker for big GS style turns & carving in general (am a big fan of Ted Ligety) and would love to see some thrown into the mix with the current crop of ski videos. Instead of a rider straightening it to the next hit wouldn't it be great to have a few tightly carved turns thrown in, but then perhaps they wouldn't have enough speed for the jump, and perhaps the two disciplines don't blend so easily as I think.
I think my dream skier to watch (or indeed be, ha ha!!) would be a mix of Candide, Scott Schmidt and Ted Ligety all thrown in together. I can but dream I suppose, in the meantime, it's back to the day job for me!
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@foxtrotzulu, Good example. Sam's choice of line is very demanding and indeed admirable, but the skiing in-between all the drops isn't very aesthetic and always seem to be the after thought on the free ride tour. I wonder is this because the riders choose not to focus on developing this part of their riding or because the rocker ski's don't allow for a more pronounced edge and carve in the turn.
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@davidof, +1. Earlier ski videos showed lots of footage of linked turns on a variety of terrain, I found it a real pleasure to watch, the jumps and hits were part of an overall picture. But the quick editing of a lot of modern movies seems to leave the 'in between' skiing out and only focus on the jumps etc. I find it rather sterile to watch and think of it as the Red Bull view of the world, i.e. it's all about how big, fast, high, crazy etc you can go and the rest is immaterial..
We need a higher order of thinking in the ski movie world!! Something a bit more zen
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@Pdsmark, If I remember rightly there is a big mountain film with Aksel Lund Svindal in it, believe it was called Supervention.
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Quote:
I find it rather sterile to watch and think of it as the Red Bull view of the world
I have some sympathy with that - and it's not just skiing films. I love to watch good dancers - any kind of dancing, but many music videos just leap around with such crazy short clips that you can't appreciate or understand the dancing.
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@pam w, +15!! I've got a bit of dance background myself and nothing drives me more crazy than the quick clips and focusing in on small detail rather than letting the viewer see the overall picture and assess it for themselves. The editing is constantly telling us what we should look at, that annoys me. The MGM musicals of the 50s are such a pleasure to watch because they used so few camera angles, long takes and big wide views.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Pdsmark wrote:
@foxtrotzulu, Good example. Sam's choice of line is very demanding and indeed admirable, but the skiing in-between all the drops isn't very aesthetic and always seem to be the after thought on the free ride tour. I wonder is this because the riders choose not to focus on developing this part of their riding or because the rocker ski's don't allow for a more pronounced edge and carve in the turn.
It's not very aesthetic 'cos the snow conditions are utter sh it!!
Comps don't have the luxury of waiting for pow, so most of the time they're skiing rutted hardpack and crust. Not easy to ski prettily, especially when speed and air time are the priority - they have to work much harder just to stay in control. The tip flap isn't because of the rocker, it's because they're going balls to wall on firm snow, and much much much faster than any of the old school stuff.
If you watch films rather than comps you'll see much more fluid skiing as they wait for good conditions, though it's true carving is going out of a fashion a bit in soft snow - surfing big drifty turns is just such a fun sensation. Actually in the Svindal video mentioned above they all told him to stop carving so much, as you don't get the dramatic sprays of snow! Remember now they're also charging down the sort of terrain that Plake and co. were jump turning on.
Most of the competitors do come from a race background though, and can bend a ski with the best when they want. Just watch Reine Barkered when they get to the Bec de Rosses.
Just watched the Smoothy vid and smooth is def only his name. The first few turns where horrible. The first jump was great the second was amzaing and full credit to him even to try that line. But again after landing that amazing jump and the sweeping left turn across the face the turns get horrible again. But the skill is there just look at the recovery near the end.
So why do they look so crap inbetween big hits?
Is it just selective vids and if we trawled through the old video's we love so much would we find equally bad turns?
Are they targeting training so much on the big jumps that they have not got the time to perfect technique?
Is it that the points system does not award good technique in the turns?
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speed098 wrote:
@foxtrotzulu,
Just watched the Smoothy vid and smooth is def only his name. The first few turns where horrible. The first jump was great the second was amzaing and full credit to him even to try that line. But again after landing that amazing jump and the sweeping left turn across the face the turns get horrible again. But the skill is there just look at the recovery near the end.
So why do they look so crap inbetween big hits?
Is it just selective vids and if we trawled through the old video's we love so much would we find equally bad turns?
Are they targeting training so much on the big jumps that they have not got the time to perfect technique?
Is it that the points system does not award good technique in the turns?
It's because the snow is horrendous. How else do you scrub speed at 40 mph on a 40°+ face in the runout of a 25 foot drop than by putting the skis sideways? What happens when you do that on firm rutted bumpy snow? They chatter like a bitch. Why do they need to scrub speed? Because there's more shot snow, steep slopes and big drops ahead.
Are you comparing them to racers or something? Racers are on smooth manicured pistes. If they go to fast they can smoothly throw the skis sideways without obstacles, or point them and ride it out. Worst that happens is they miss a gate. If the FWT guys did that they'd break themselves. If Sam Smoothy messed up anywhere in the first half of his line he'd be dead or seriously broken. Obstacles aren't conveniently set - like race gates - in places that match skis turn radii and allow the skiers to always be going as fast as gravity allows.
You want see bad turns in the old films because they have the luxury of picking only the best footage, unlike a comp where one run counts.
@speed098, Do they also get extra points for throwing in some of those silly little tricks as well? I've noticed some of the skiers do them and it just seems a bit weird. Like a high jumper trying to earn extra points for doing a little skip in his run up or trying to touch his nose as he goes over the bar.
@clarky999, That CT film may be highly edited (and a bit wanky at times) but the skiing is truly beautiful to watch.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@clarky999, I'm not sure anyone is grumbling about the quality of the skiing or suggesting that it could have been skiied differently or more elegantly. I think the point is that it's more ugly than majestic as the OP says.
Obstacles aren't conveniently set - like race gates - in places that match skis turn radii and allow the skiers to always be going as fast as gravity allows.
@davidof, what a fabulous film! Tested my French beyond its limits, though.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@clarky999, I'm not sure anyone is grumbling about the quality of the skiing or suggesting that it could have been skiied differently or more elegantly. I think the point is that it's more ugly than majestic as the OP says.
Then the answer depends on the snow conditions
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After all it is free
Lots of great points from everyone here, thanks. Will digest and come back with more thoughts.
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I mostly agree with the OP, it is downright ugly. I don't see the point of straight-lining a powder field, and these kids seem to be taking absurd risks for the sake of a video. I'd much rather watch short radius powder turns on flatter terrain. A few years ago in Avoriaz I watched an ESF instructor come down a mogul field, and it was far more impressive than watching the pro's on TV.
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Hurtle wrote:
@davidof, what a fabulous film! Tested my French beyond its limits, though.
Ce n'est pas Spiral mais je kiffe grave, Ils envoient du gros ces alpins!
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@davidof, I can manage most of the language in Spiral, actually, but this was something else! (I absolute love Spiral. Is there another series due, do you know?)
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Fluidity and turns between cliffs is marked in Freeride comps, however, speed is also marked, so if you mince about doing short turns, you will lose out. I was talking to Hugo Harrison (judge on FWT and amazing skier), and he said he is always looking for solid technique and clean landings, skidding and backslapping doesn't score well. However, a few less than perfect turns are not going to matter if you stomp some huge cliffs, and they really shouldn't.
I would guess a lot of posters here really don't understand how steep those runs are, and how far removed modern freeride is from the straight ski era. Also, if you don't like it, don't watch it?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
@speed098, Do they also get extra points for throwing in some of those silly little tricks as well? I've noticed some of the skiers do them and it just seems a bit weird. Like a high jumper trying to earn extra points for doing a little skip in his run up or trying to touch his nose as he goes over the bar.
@clarky999, That CT film may be highly edited (and a bit wanky at times) but the skiing is truly beautiful to watch.
I don't know maybe DOT will have the answer to that one.
@clarky999 Yes there are sections that don't look like they had great snow conditions, but there are sections that it is not that bad to result in such a drop in technique. So your reply answers part of the question but not all.
The ability not only to survive going over the terrain they do but to do some incredible jumps is without question. I do think the OP has a point though that the turns do not look stylish.
The equipment today is supposed to make this stuff easier yet I have skied with people on the old gear who made it look so much better they had nice turns. So the question is that if they could do that then why are the best not consistently doing it today allowing for conditions?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
speed098 wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@speed098, Do they also get extra points for throwing in some of those silly little tricks as well? I've noticed some of the skiers do them and it just seems a bit weird. Like a high jumper trying to earn extra points for doing a little skip in his run up or trying to touch his nose as he goes over the bar.
@clarky999, That CT film may be highly edited (and a bit wanky at times) but the skiing is truly beautiful to watch.
I don't know maybe DOT will have the answer to that one.
@clarky999 Yes there are sections that don't look like they had great snow conditions, but there are sections that it is not that bad to result in such a drop in technique. So your reply answers part of the question but not all.
The ability not only to survive going over the terrain they do but to do some incredible jumps is without question. I do think the OP has a point though that the turns do not look stylish.
The equipment today is supposed to make this stuff easier yet I have skied with people on the old gear who made it look so much better they had nice turns. So the question is that if they could do that then why are the best not consistently doing it today allowing for conditions?
Because the terrain is several levels up from what the guys on old gear were skiing. Add 50% gnar factor to the impression you get from the videos to account for shrinkavision. Also take them out of the competition setting and you'll see more style.
And regarding the Andorra comp, the snow was bad everywhere - lots of the riders - and commentators - commented on it (I also spoke to Fabi Lentsch about it). Video just NEVER shows how good/bad/gnarly conditions are.
I get what you're saying about style, but as comps are more about skiers getting right up to their ragged edges, it's not really the place to look for it. If you google you'll find videos of most of the FWT guys skiing pow/pillows/etc and looking a hell of a lot more stylish than in comps, as there's much less pressure and need to push it, and they can wait for the best conditions.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jimmer wrote:
I would guess a lot of posters here really don't understand how steep those runs are, and how far removed modern freeride is from the straight ski era. Also, if you don't like it, don't watch it?
+1
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Poster: A snowHead
speed098 wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@speed098, Do they also get extra points for throwing in some of those silly little tricks as well? I've noticed some of the skiers do them and it just seems a bit weird. Like a high jumper trying to earn extra points for doing a little skip in his run up or trying to touch his nose as he goes over the bar.
@clarky999, That CT film may be highly edited (and a bit wanky at times) but the skiing is truly beautiful to watch.
I don't know maybe DOT will have the answer to that one.
@clarky999 Yes there are sections that don't look like they had great snow conditions, but there are sections that it is not that bad to result in such a drop in technique. So your reply answers part of the question but not all.
The ability not only to survive going over the terrain they do but to do some incredible jumps is without question. I do think the OP has a point though that the turns do not look stylish.
The equipment today is supposed to make this stuff easier yet I have skied with people on the old gear who made it look so much better they had nice turns. So the question is that if they could do that then why are the best not consistently doing it today allowing for conditions?
What is 'stylish'!? Yes some riders are a bit loose, but people like Reine Barkered can arc turns like a racer down some of the gnarliest terrain around. Maybe your idea of style is from a bygone era.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@jimmer,
I did know speed is important on the FWT but did not know if they did loose marks for turns if they did not look stylish/smooth/fluid etc as the jumps with clean landings and speed where the main critirea (as well as staying inbound, as out of bounds is auto disqualification).
I also do appreciate the terrain they are on yes admittedly not been on stuff that steep since starting back and may never get to again, age/health and fitness creep up on us all eventually no matter how much we would like to think it does not. The skiing is not that far removed as you may think yes equipment has changed and so has technique but the lines I see them ski on the FWT are not disimilair to lines skied on straight skis, ( I actually enjoyed watching Smoothy's second series of jumps as I have watched a few episodes of the FWT and always wondered why nobody had taken a line like he did, as it was guaranteed to be a big score if landed clean ).
I think everyone posting here likes watching it just because we can see room for improvement does not mean we do not like watching it.
@davidof,
Gates on the FWT now that would be something
Not sure if Bill or health and safety would be up for it, though I am sure there will always be those willing to give it a go.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
speed098 wrote:
@jimmer,
The skiing is not that far removed as you may think yes equipment has changed and so has technique but the lines I see them ski on the FWT are not disimilair to lines skied on straight skis,
Sorry, but it is.
Glen Plake and Scott Schmidt are and were INCREDIBLE skiers, but when you look at the boundaries they were pushing at the time:
I'm pretty good mates with someone who was at the top level of the snowboard FWT. I met him on a BASI course and he was having to make some changes to his steep turns, which seems a bit ironic, but as he put it "on the FWT I just do 100mph side-slips and look for stuff to jump off."
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@jimmer, apologies if my post appeared to imply that I don't like the FWT, I do, I'm just trying to understand the technique and what goes into it more and get a idea of whether my personal observations are misguided or not. And I'm aware I'm doing this from the comfort of home and not staring down a very steep mountain, so it is by it's nature a bit self indulgent.
I absolutely appreciate the balls and skill needed to do this kind of riding, especially as they are often skiing faces for the first time and so taking jumps and cliffs blind, that really takes some doing and not something I could imagine trying myself. I guess some of the issue here is the nature of the sport, it is primarily about gnarly cliff drops and extreme lines and that means a lot of speed is generated very quickly and if you're going to stay alive you got to get rid of that some how. Which would seem to be confirmed by what @stevomcd has just posted.
@clarky999, I take your points about conditions and in particular the dangers of comparing a live competition feed to an edited film. However I do think the style of ski used leads to an exaggerated amount of chatter in these harder conditions. The rocker tip and tails are designed so the edges don't catch and so that means that it's much harder to get the full length of the ski edge to bite when sliding sideways and leads to a more pronounced rotation back and forth around the centre of the ski. I'm making this observation having never skied this type of ski, so would be curious to know if anyone thinks it makes sense or not?
Also can clearly see that what the guys are doing now is way beyond what was then. I suppose I want the best of both worlds, to see a combination of the gnar of now with what I perceive as a the beauty of skiing technique then.
@jellylegs, +1 . There are only so many times I can sit and watch people mainline powder fields.
I guess it's all coming down to what floats your boat, but also what techniques are primarily rewarded within the competition.
Thanks to everyone for the different videos posted, I'll try and get some 'old school' stuff up and try to identify what it is about the technique I miss.
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The good people in days of yore were of course good, but they were less well trained and less well equipped than the good people of today are.
A good rider on antique equipment may be able to beat a poor rider on modern gear, but I've never met a good rider who would voluntarily ride antique gear. Races aren't won on old technology.
I refuse to grow up, and part of that involves never saying "the older I get the better it was".
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Mike Pow, thanks for linking that Candide Thovex film. Mesmerising, with some great shots of the mountains as well as the skiing. I was glad to see that the Thovex family's old videos are as bad as mine.
Sobering that the film is dedicated to people who have died doing stuff like that. I hope Thovex doesn't keep going till he kills himself but I guess he probably will.
I hadn't appreciated the extent to which Thovex re-wrote the script for that kind of extreme skiing.
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@pam w, +1 I think I just watched the whole thing with my mouth hanging open. Absolutely astonishing and, as you say, incredible backdrops.
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Hurtle wrote:
@davidof, I can manage most of the language in Spiral,
respect
no idea about the next series, I don't actually watch it as it is on Canal which is PTV over here. I stick with Inspector Barnaby, that's quite enough excitement for me .
FAQ
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horrendous. How else do you scrub speed at 40 mph on a 40°+ face in the runout of a 25 foot drop than by putting the skis sideways? What happens when you do that on firm rutted bumpy snow? They chatter like a bitch. Why do they need to scrub speed? Because there's more shot snow, steep slopes and big drops ahead.
I can manage most of the language in Spiral, actually, but this was something else! (I absolute love Spiral. Is there another series due, do you know?)
or health and safety would be up for it, though I am sure there will always be those willing to give it a go.
