 Poster: A snowHead
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At the end of last week, in Lech, our instructor started to teach us to do short, punchy turns. We started by practising the 'hockey stop' - this is ok, then on to turns. Then we had to do turns between our pole tracks that were held out to our sides and in the snow. Of course I did a few, then my skis crossed in front and I skied on my face for a wee while. What's the trick ? How do you keep your skis parallel all the time ? Am I supposed to get more airborn or what?
Also, I can do short turns down the centre of a wide piste, but when presented with a narrow piste I panic and side slip and ski steps down it. (I can turn one way better than the other) What's the remedy here? Cheers guys!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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OK, the first remedy is to get longer arms, that way your pole tracks are wider. 
There's at least two (other) options - go flat out, and make very small turn movements - basically, get in a tuck and gently move your legs to the left or the right while keeping the rest of your body still and facing straight ahead.
Next, if you don't mind it not being a continuous fluid movement of edge to edge turning, then make your turns a slight progression from hockey stops.
Start by facing across the slope. Roll your skis completely off their uphill edges. You'll be going straight down the slope, now do a hockey stop (doesn't need to be a full on jump to a halt, just a big pole plant and definite sharp turn). Repeat.
You can progress this and make the turns forward or backward.
Anyone want to correct this?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well, I guess it is indeed just "practice, practice...". The good part is that practicing can be so fun.
As you get more ski days under your belt you'll find that the skis will rarely, if ever, cross in front of you. But DON'T get more airborne, actually the current prevailing school of thought is that not only should both skis be on the snow at all times in the turn but there should also be significant weight on both of them throughout a turn
As for narrow pistes, it's all relative. I ski just about everywhere and I seek out narrow&difficult lines which I try to ski properly as opposed to sideslipping or 180-degree jump turns, but I've once been on a ridge with a near-vertical drop on one side where I could only snowplough despite it being wide enough for me to do pirouettes under normal conditions - or this season, at Jackson Hole, I was following a really good skier down a chute and I realised that, while I may have been technically able to follow his turns, I needed to slow down considerably as I was too afraid of losing control and bombing down.
I believe you said in another post that you only started last year - the range of options down the hill will keep increasing for you as your skills progress.
You will probably get more technical answers, too, I'm not an instructor and prefer to abstain from specific advice in most cases.
Enjoy!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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erica, Erica. I had never heard of Hockey Stops before. They seem to be the same as the stop we all do to spray snow over the rest of the skiing group at the end of a run. And I think “short, punchy turns” are usually known as Short Swing Turns.
The secret of short swing turns is to ask your friendly orthopaedic surgeon to insert an extra joint between your spine and your pelvis to allow you to rotate you pelvis 90 degrees to the left and right as you ski down the slope facing straight forward. As usual, some thigh flexion/extension and leaning forward helps. To get it right you already know the solution: practice, practice, practice.
Shouldn’t this thread be in Bend ze Knees? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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erica, as everyone else has suggested, practice is the way! Also, have as many lessons (ideally private as you begin to progress) as you can afford. My ski holiday budget is generally split 40% travel & accommodation, 40% ski tuition and 20% food & drink. May sound a lot, but the more lessons you get, the quicker you'll progress, and therefore get better value (and enjoyment) out of your skiing holiday.
I even prefer to go self catering so that I can afford more lessons!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| masopa wrote: |
| I even prefer to go self catering so that I can afford more lessons! |
You mean you take a home brew kit with you?
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masopa, you may have to rethink that buget of yours now you are engaged. 
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Wear The Fox Hat, what a brilliant idea! Never thought of that one... Would probably have to go for two weeks or more to actually get the end product though!
Jonpim, yup. Getting married ain't cheap! Neither is starting up a new business, so two at the same time is surely a recipe for disaster?!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| masopa wrote: |
| two at the same time is surely a recipe for disaster?! |
Either that, or a recipe for a very happy life?
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Elizabeth B, fingers crossed!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I am definitely going to have at least one private lesson next ski trip...
I have skiied since i was a kid, but my frequency of trips has decreased a lot (i hadnt been for 4 years before this year), and my technique has also gone right out of the window!
so, i can still ski ok, and dont fall over, but i probably look like a right bozo.
My girlfriend (who had not skiied before January, but it living in France, so goes on ski lessons every weekend  ) gave me some refresher tips...the main things that helped were planting your poles, leaning forward and not skiing too fast for your ability.
But, how come everyone else on the slopes is clearly better than me, EVERYONE in the 3 valleys skiied like a pro, looked classy and was probably laughing at me as i stammered down the slope!...has anyone else ever had this nauseating feeling?
I started to ski better when i started leaning forward, but everyone else just skis about all casual like, almost standing upright looking ace...how come? its not fair! 
sigh, ill get me coat....!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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tomski01,
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EVERYONE in the 3 valleys skiied like a pro
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That's easy. Don't go to the 3 valleys. Just been to La Plagne. No one can ski for toffee there. 
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| tomski01 wrote: |
i can still ski ok, and dont fall over
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Tomski01, stop worrying about falling over. I fall over all the time. I do not think falling over a sign of failure, but a sign I am trying. All those "pros" will will be falling over too. Have fun, try hard, and make sure someone gets a good photo every time you fall over. Those photos will be the only interesting ones in your photo album.
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You know it makes sense.
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| maggi wrote: |
tomski01,
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EVERYONE in the 3 valleys skiied like a pro
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That's easy. Don't go to the 3 valleys. Just been to La Plagne. No one can ski for toffee there. |
I'll bet it varies week to week, I often notice this round the Grand Massif. Some weeks you see some really nice skiing and some weeks it's hopeless, same for boarding. We often work out which crowd is the better for that week.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Good morning!
This would lead me into my PMTS shpeal, no sense in boring everyone with that.
I will add this though. You wanna get better, you should be practicing the Primary Movements. Nothing beats practice, sure. But, if you're practicing the wrong stuff --you'll just get really good at making the wrong moves.
I'm not about to tell anyone here they're skiing "wrong". But in cruising these threads, I don't see a lot of talk that indicates "skiing with the feet." 
Now some may chime in here and say, "Hey wait a minute. I saw SCSA fall @ JH." Well, what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't (i always seem to make my worst turns when everyone is watching ).
Folks, I've seen and skied with other skiers who are products of...other teachings. Skiers who've spent countless dollars on lessons and instruction, yet still don't demonstrate any fundamentally correct movements. I've seen hype and blind loyalty. I've seen instructors, most of whom who can't make the turns they type/talk about. I've studied every aspect of ski instruction and every other ski instruction product on the planet.
Nothing, compares to what HH and company are teaching.
PMTS is not propreitary. In a nutshell, it's about learning to balance on all 4 edges. It's about racing movements, for all mountain skiing. What's so proprietary about that?
If you want to really learn the truth about PMTS, contact HH yourself -- he'll be happy to chat with you all. Or, visit realskiers.com/pmtsforum. No, I'm not trying to pry eyes away from my boyz site here. Just trying to help out and get you he/she/its accurate information.
End of rant about PMTS.
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Poster: A snowHead
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English translation anyone?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PMTS should not be confused with PMS
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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PMS I know well, PMTS?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You'll find PMTS here.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And if you go to http://www.realskiers.com/pmtsforum/ as SCSA suggested you will find that PMTS stands for Primary Movements Teaching System.
Rats! More to read. And I've got a suitcase to pack.....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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SCSA - thats a very confusing post?!
who is HH, where is JH....help!
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Helly Hansen should stick to what they're good at
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tomski01, try this advice from the film, "Better Off Dead": "Go that way, fast. If something gets in your way, turn."
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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tomski01, HH is Harald Harb, JH is Jackson Hole.
SCSA, you may not have noticed but no one in the uk gives a flying feck about PSIA/PMTS or other internal US teaching/technique squabble like that.
Could you maybe share from your fount of knowledge some information on how you would advise erica to make short turns?
Thanks
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For Erica.
There are a couple of tricks to short radius turns: Firstly you must be at the level to try them (and because lots of pupils ask to do them lots of instructors oblige before the pupil actually has the level to succeed). You must be able to do a good basic carved turn with comfortable vertical movement before you CAN be successful, this is because you need to apply lots of pressure to the ski to make it turn more quickly than its natural turning radius.
Assuming you have this level of ski-ing on medium radius turns, you need to exaggerate the vertical movement, but not hurry it. Keep your eyes fixed on a point straight down the fall line. Keep your arms and hands wide and down the fall line. Choose a rythm and stick to it (singing can help here). It takes a lot of practice and you need a medium slope to help you - too flat is almost impossible and too steep is scary to start with.
Short radius turns are one of the most difficult techniques to master and are definitely "high end", so fix your point and keep trying. If you are not at the level described then wait until you get there as you will only end up "winscreen wipering" and not looking cool!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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To learn how to do short radius turns, I wouldn't start from a "hockey stop" point of view. The whole point of a hockey stop is that you end up with your skis travelling sideways across the snow, so scrubbing off speed. In any parallel turn the whole point is to be carving your turns, not skidding them, and so the technique is fundamentally different from that of a "hockey stop".
Other than that, I think that once you get past a certain point, it is mostly down to practice, practice, practice, with the benefit of well timed private lessons to tidy up your technique.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Kramer, I wonder if the Hockey Stop concept was suggested to erica as a method of controlling speed when doing Short Swing turns on a steep slope.
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Jonpim, I seem to spend a lot of time trying to iron out my tendency to skid my turns when doing short radius parallels on steep slopes, it's one of my bad habits.
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You know it makes sense.
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Kramer, I'm not so sure it is a bad habit: how else do you slow down on a steep slope?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Erica the quickest way to understand what your instructors have been telling you is to hire or buy a pair of Kneissl big feet. After the initial strangeness of having such a short pair of "skis" on your feet, you will find that you will be able to make short swing turns without thinking about it. You will then be able to translate the techniques to normal length skis. If you spend one day on big feet and one day on skis you will quickly reach a fairly advanced standard.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Jonpim, when erica mentioned hockey stops, my idea was that it was start of a progression - so, the next step was to incorporate them in a turn.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I recently had lessons using the same technique, e.g. the hockey stop first. The reason for this, as explained to us, was to help us learn how to find our edges.
He said that it was not a way to slow down and was trying to get us to stop sliding on steep slopes, which was our bad habit (see bend ze knees, ssh has a cuple of threads on this subject).
Apart from being a way to stop quickly, the instructor did say it was just so we knew how it felt to bite the edges - something you do in a turn to stop yourself sliding. Anyway, next year I'll be getting several more lessons and as erica suggests, practise, practise, practise.
Or as one footballer said: Practise makes permanent.
(Rather than perfect, because everyone makes mistakes)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Jonpim, IMHO you slow down on a steep slope by completing your carved turns. If it is very steep and bumpy, you can check your speed on the bumps. Whenever you are skiing in a direction that doesn't match the long axis of the contact area between your ski and the snow, your ski is travelling sideways, making it harder work, more inefficient, and more unstable, as you are more likely to catch an edge.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kramer, if you can carve your way down a couloir then you're a much better skier than me!!! Once it gets steep my carves rapidly come to a stop and are replaced by short-radius and edge-checking turns.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hi gang!
Sorry about that.
PMTS stands for Primary Movements Teaching System. It was founded, by Harald Harb (HH). Disclosure: HH and I hang out a little and he's definitely a pal. But that's not the reason why I offer my views. I do so, because I truly do believe it's the best product out there for any skier, of any level.
You can check out PMTS @ www.harbskisytems.com
Folks, like I say. I feel like I'm really knowledgeable about ski instruction. Not an instructor, just an avid consumer. I've compared PMTS to what else is being offered and I can honestly say nothing comes close.
I consider myself to be a hack skier and I could afford any teaching or coaching available. But I only follow PMTS and what HH teaches. Why? Because I want to be a great skier, it's a personal goal. I can only achieve my goal with PMTS. But like I say, it's great for any skier of any ability. Because, it teaches a skier what I believe are the skills to achieve anything they want. What does PMTS focus on?
1) Balance. You learn to balance, on all 4 edges. Most skiers never learn to balance on their edges. Learn balance, everything else falls in place.
2) Technique. HH teaches race technique, applied to all mountain skiing. Skiers never learn the wedge. "Never ever" skiers learn edging from day 1.
3) The short turn. Learning the short turn is the key to skiing steeps, bumps, and powder. Anybody who is "great" has a bullet proof short turn. They have to. Anyone who isn't, doesn't.
That's it in a nutshell. But you should all do yourselves a favor and contact HH. He's the nicest guy and he'd love to chat with you about your skiing goals. And if you've ever out in either Vail or Beaver Creek, I'd be happy to show you PMTS informally, for the low cost of just a beer!
Be cool,
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But even when following PMTS, it's still all about, "Practice, practice, practice!" 
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So, SCSA, how do you make a short turn?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| when erica mentioned hockey stops, my idea was that it was start of a progression - so, the next step was to incorporate them in a turn |
Yes Porter le chapeau de renard , on going back to Erica’s original post ("our instructor started to teach us to do short, punchy turns. We started by practising the 'hockey stop' - this is ok, then on to turns”) I see you are indeed correct.
But moving on to steep slopes,
| Kramer wrote: |
| you slow down on a steep slope by completing your carved turns. If it is very steep and bumpy, you can check your speed on the bumps |
Wow, Kramer, you have made me think very hard on just how I do ski those steep slopes (always a good thing). I think it is all a matter of How Steep? (and shades of a previous post “Can you carve on Steep Slopes?” – answer Yes, if you are Herman Maier).
On steep narrow slopes such as this couloire I’m pretty certain I do a series of Hockey Stops (though never called them that before).
On steep bumpy slopes such as Pic Blanc above Alp d’Huez I do check my speed on the bumps, but that check is really just another Hockey Stop.
I think even on wide steep slopes such as the Avoriaz Wall I still essentially do a series of Hockey Stops. I wouldn’t dare carve this, but maybe I am just being a Woose…..
No, I think I will stick to my linked Hockey-Stop technique and leave carving down The Wall to you experts.
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Hi erica,
Learning the short turn is a key to skiing well. Sorry, I really can't offer you any meaningful advice in text. What I can do however, is make sure you're following the right teachings, to get you where you want to go. Erica, skiing is full -- and I mean full -- of lousy instruction. Don't fall prey to it.
Follow PMTS. It's the only ski instruction product out there that breaks skiing down to it's simplest elements. PMTS is easy to learn, then all it takes is practice. If you're really motivated about your skiing, you should take a PMTS camp. I know it's a little pricey, but if you're serious about your skiing, it's a small price to pay.
Be cool,
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FAQ
