 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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plectrum, Nice one. Cheers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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plectrum, yup, good one. Anybody used one of these?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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plectrum, thanks a lot 
| Quote: |
The angle of repose for granular (not slab) snow is 28 degrees
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Does that mean any slope less than 28 degrees won't avalanche? I take it it's probably not that simple.
I'm embarassingly naive about this kind of thing.
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The angle of the slope is only one of the many factors that determine whether or not the slope is likely to slide.
Measuring the angle of the slope so accurately is I believe an academic exercise which will give one a false sense of security. I have rarely come across a slope that is of uniform slope angle from top to bottom and therefore what is the angel of the slope?. If you're going to measure the angle of the slope shouldn't you also dig a snow hole every 50 metres in order to study the different levels of the snow pack and measure the temperature gradient between the top and bottom of the snow pack?
If you are really interested in the subject of "Avalanches" there are courses and talks like Henry's Avalanche Talks (HAT), which will give you a more balanced view on the risks of avalanches.
There was a thread about 6 weeks ago on this subject, can't remember exactly when.
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Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 19-10-22 10:09; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| welshflyer wrote: |
| ........Measuring the angle of the slope so accurately is I believe an academic exercise which will give one a false sense of security. ..... |
Quite apart from the avalanche risk, I am interested in the steepness of slopes I ski on. For example, I had thought the start angle for The Tunnel at ADH ( a benchmark of a tough slope for me) was 45°, but have been told by skiers I respect that it is 38°. Equally, I have leapt into slopes I would not normally have skied on because they were so steep simply because I was with an instructor who knew my abilities. I would have liked to know the angle, as a measure of what I can do given the right conditions.
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i have an inclinometer. every time i have been on a slope where, in retrospect, i would like to have used it (purely for boasting in the bar afterwards) it has been steep enough that i haven't wanted to be messing around getting it out of my pocket, measuring etc
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Arno, I can see that happening to me, too. Even so, might do it for the odd slope, just to start getting a feel for angles.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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quick question, how steep (generalisation I know) is a typical black (30 degrees?) and a typical red (25 degrees?), just as a broad point of reference, because it might be useful to have an idea if off piste and the slope looks 'redish' or 'blueish' or 'blackish'
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Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sat 15-06-24 11:00; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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achilles, there are very good cheapo apps for your ipod touch which will acts as an inclinometer. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| philingle wrote: |
I would say that your typical black will have an average angle of no more than 20 degrees, with it reaching 30 degrees perhaps in one or two short sections.
A typical red is about 15 degrees average, with short sections of 20 degrees. |
Probably not true. I would think a black is probably mid 20s even though I've never skied in Europe BUT supposedly a harder black in NA Rockies is similar to Alps Black which is about 25 degrees with sections of 30-40 degrees.
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Poster: A snowHead
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skiking4, agreed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 15-06-24 11:00; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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i read something recently that said the average slope angle of the Grand Couloir at Courchevel was about 22.5 degrees, which i thought was quite instructive. that starts out quite steep but there is a relatively flat bit at the end
talking about something maxing out at 30-40 degrees isn't very helpful because if feels very different standing at the top of slopes which are 30 degrees or 40 degrees!
i do think that there is some inbounds terrain at north american resorts which equals or exceeds 40degrees - haven't skied a huge amount of different resorts there but i can think of some lines off Spanky's Ladder at Whistler which must be about that steep for a pitch or so
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| philingle wrote: |
| skiking4 and stoatsbrother - I'd have to disagree. I know a thing or two about slope angles having skied over 40 degrees a few times myself. I really dont think I have ever skied a black run that was as steep as 40 degrees. |
I'm not sure you guys are disagreeing. I think the other posters are looking at the steeper sections of the black. If you take something like the Sarenne in l'Alpe d'Huez what you remember are the steeper 20-25 degree bits, not the average 12 degree gradient (unless you are a boarder of course )
Many people would consider la Face de Bellevarde as very steep - I posted some measurements I made with a clinometer on sH a while back, I think the steepest it gets is 28 degrees. The exit left from the tunnel is in the 35 degree mark for the first few meters as Achilles says above.
Personally if a slope has ice on it (not just hard snow but verglas) I won't ski it if it is 10 degrees let alone 45 degrees.
Regarding slope angles, dry slabs are common in the 25-55 degree range with the peak angle around 38-39 degrees (which is why Munter uses this angle in is reduction method). However they can occur outside that range. Wet snow avalanches can occur on slopes of 10 degrees but are common in the 25-30 degree range. In short, slopes that you may be skiing are liable to avalanche.
How do you tell the slope angle?
Ask you buddy how steep the slope looks and subtract 10 degrees.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Scotland's own Fly Paper has a fall line angle of only 39 degrees (measure it yourself from this picture I took half way down). It just feels steeper than that when you're looking down over the concave headwall at the rocky outcrops below. It is also avalanche prone and you can see the results of one slide in this thread ... http://www.winterhighland.info/forum/read.php?2,60934
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| philingle wrote: |
Notably the slope angle of the Flying K run where they are holding this years world champs is only 24.1 degrees.
Phil |
I think we were talking the steepest long pitches rather than the whole run.
What you say about the speed track may be true of the place where they take the measurement but it starts at about 40º (the public are never allowed to ski from the top) and gets progressively less steep to almost flat at the bottom.
moffatross, the only place you get a reasonably accurate measure is level with yourself on the slope. Is that where you measured? I'd have said by eye it was at least 40º but I'm probably wrong.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 4-01-09 21:53; edited 1 time in total
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Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 15-06-24 11:00; edited 1 time in total
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Oh sorry, didn't read carefully - I was talking about Les Arcs, none of which is a piste.
On another thread spyderman said "The very top is 54 degrees, then 45 degrees shallowing out to about 35 degrees for most of the kilometre."
I think the last statement must be wrong - the part after the measuring point gets progressively much less.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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...
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 15-06-24 11:07; edited 1 time in total
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| snowball wrote: |
| moffatross, the only place you get a reasonably accurate measure is level with yourself on the slope. Is that where you measured? I'd have said by eye it was at least 40º but I'm probably wrong. |
I was measuring the angle of the snow against the sky near where the kids were skiing and that is just a fraction under 40 degrees. The point where I was standing is a little steeper but not much, maybe a couple more degrees at most so let's say 41 degrees. Statements I've read elsewhere talking of 45 degrees for the Fly Paper are therefore likely to be pitch spin but it's possible I suppose under the right snow conditions and at the right spot. What you do get on the Fly Paper is absolutely no mogulling but small (and sometimes not so small) vertical linear separations (someone told me the name for these once) big enough for a ski and most of a leg to drop into !! At the nearby Spring Run which is often underskied and like the Fly Paper, never groomed, although only 30 degrees or so at the steepest points is prone to sluffing which can be quite alarming when you're the only one around. I've never heard of a full blown avalanche on that run though.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sun 4-01-09 22:52; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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philingle, It is just possible that some of us might have also skied 40-45 degree slopes. Your assertion that a typical black has short sections reaching as much as 20 degrees but an average of 15 degrees would not hold much water in Jackson Hole where I was skiing last week, where even the middle line of Rendezvous bowl has an average of 35 (mush shallower at the far edge). More stats here which doesn't include details of many of the steeper bits - but gives a flavour.
Not sure choosing Vars is a great comparator? A bit like me suggesting the most gnarly steeps in Sussex? And having skied down the side of the flying K at Les Arcs (plenty of turns mind you) I would say much of that upper bowl area is steeper than 30 degrees.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Your assertion that a typical black has short sections reaching as much as 20 degrees but an average of 15 degrees |
he didn't make this assertion.
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Arno,  you are right - that was his claim for Reds
But I still think that his assertion of an average slope of no more than 20 degrees with a few bits of up to 30 degrees is wrong for most black runs I have skied in the last few years.
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You know it makes sense.
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Clearly someone has to go out and measure but, like Arno, I know from experience that on the bits needing measurement I am enjoying myself too much to stop.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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my biggest ever tumble was on the off piste bit well above the flying K. several hundred metres of terror while i slid down so i remember it well  , defo more than 35 at the top entry well above the actual speed track and prob close to 40...
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Poster: A snowHead
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Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 15-06-24 10:57; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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When avalanche risk is high (3 or above) the advice of sticking to low angle slopes is often quoted and seems very sensible, given the sweet spot for slab avalanches is around 39 degrees. I'd always assumed that low angle slopes would be the equivalent of red pistes or less, but if a European black is typically 20º (with some steeper pitches) would sticking to slope angles that are roughly equivalent to black pistes be considered "low angle"?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar, i don't there's any substitute for getting out there and measuring some angles yourself. philingle's technique for judging 30degrees is pretty handy
don't know about you but when i think of a black run, i think of the steep bits rather than the cruisy bits between. the steep bits will often be in the "steep enough to slide" range
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've skied in Japan a couple of times, and one of the things I loved was that they printed the piste angles on the map. I've wished ever since that Europe would do the same.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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...
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sat 15-06-24 11:00; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Arno wrote: |
| don't know about you but when i think of a black run, i think of the steep bits rather than the cruisy bits between. the steep bits will often be in the "steep enough to slide" range |
Yes, I appreciate that. I'm just trying to get a feel for what people think is "low angle terrain". If the steepest pitch of the Face du Bellevarde is 28º it's only beginning to get into the steepness where slab avalanches normally can occur. Or am I mis-understanding things?
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Arno and snowball are right....if you think it is steep enough to measure it..it isn't the place you want to measure it. I have this issue with a vid cam... is it too much faff..??
Most things are not as steep as we might think..or want to think, but who really cares...!! A slope isn't likely uniform anyway... I'd be more concerned about the terrain and its dangers than a few degress.
You should be looking at the fall-line and the run-outs and the traps, how much snow can slide, how far, convex..etc etc If you are only thinking in terms of degrees..then...????????
philingle, post some more stoke... 
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Last edited by After all it is free on Sat 15-06-24 10:57; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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philingle, thanks for that helpful post.
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Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sat 15-06-24 10:57; edited 1 time in total
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