 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello,
A heads up for any owners /users of the Mammut 207 Bar Aluminium Refillable Cartridge, it transpires that this cartridge can not be filled legally in the UK or Europe.
The cartridge is manufactured in the USA and carries a DOT manufacturing stamp and not the required CE marking for use or for sale in Europe.
I discovered this when I took my cartridge to my local dive shop to check that they could refill , they examined it and stated that because it has the DOT stamp which is a USA manufacturing standard and no European marking that it is illegal to fill and sell in the UK/Europe.
I advised my retailer who are happy to refund me, who in turn advised Mammut who at this point in time are blissfully unaware that this problem exists. They advised the retailer that it is legal to fill and sell, the retailer asked for some documentation to back this up so will see what they come up with.
I sense a product withdrawal coming shortly from Mammut with regard to the sale /supply of these cylinders in UK/Europe once the penny has dropped.
A swift google on "filling DOT cylinders in UK/Europe" brings up info regarding the required standards for scuba and paintball cylinders and DOT cylinders definitely a no no.
Disappointing as being able to test fire and have cylinder refilled locally without need to return a cartridge was attractive.
I hope Mammut address this swiftly and source or manufacture refillable cylinders that carry the required legal standard for use in UK/EUROPE
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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They also can't sell the cylinder in the EU without a CE mark, if it had that the shop would fill it.
What size is the cyl? Fairly easy to buy a replacement with CE mark assuming it isn't a crazy size with stupid thread, but often US cyls have odd imperial threads.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks for the replies. The plot thickens. The cylinder has indeed got a Pi mark on the valve body but not on the actual cylinder where the DOT Manufacturing stamps are.
I plan to take the cylinder in to my local dive shop again today with the data sheet and some other cylinder data regarding the PI mark.
It may be that the dive shop guy has missed the Pi mark on the valve body and concentrated only on the dot markings.
I will post again when have been in and got clarification.
Thanks again for the replies, I hope that the cylinder is legal and just an error on dive shop guys part, and me for posting prematurely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Let us know, and if you hear anything from the shop.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Snowsafe and Snowshepherd both appear to be selling this cartridge.
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@kmurray, Interesting little thread, I am away at the mo, after running our off piste courses in Chamonix, I will check my stock of cylinders when I return, although I am pretty sure they are perfectly OK in the UK and EU, I have had many refilled by local dive shop and have never heard of this before.
The main reason for the refillable 207 bar is that the US regs prevent filling to 300 bar.
Also worth noting again, that refilling these cylinders with air, its always advisable to make sure its dry air as per dive air, some paint ball operations use their own compressors which may not be dry air.
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Hi ,
Back into dive shop today , who still maintain that for them to fill a cylinder it must have an EN stamp. I took the data sheet and showed them the ISO and Pi marks on the sticker on the cylinder but they were unimpressed. They had received calls from retailer who I bought cylinder from and from Mammut distributor but still adamant that they are correct.
They said that as far as they were concerned no EN number then no filling. They stated that it is a DOT cylinder and therefore illegal to sell and fill in UK /Europe. They pointed to the DOT stamps on the shoulder of the cylinder and commented that the ISO and PI were only on the paper sticker attached to the cylinder and not physically stamped into the cylinder. There is a PI legend etched into the valve but this is a seperate component in their eyes. I think that they coming from a diving viewpoint expect to see proper stamps into the body of the cylinder and not just paper stickers. What occurs if the stickers get damaged then the only identifier is the DOT stamps stamped into the body of the cylinder.
I am going to try to seek a second opinion on this as dive shops non recognition of PI and ISO could be a lack of familiarity with these standards as they may be used to dealing with only Dive gear with EN rating.
I will try and also get a paintball centre to offer an opinion on the legality and will post results.
If anyone else can shed any light or throw up some irrefutable evidence that the dive shops stance is either right or wrong I would greatly appreciate that.
Retailer has kindly offered to take the cylinder back but I will wait to see what I can find out first.
Regards
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@kmurray, the marking on the valve is totally different to what needs to be stamped on the cylinder. You can fit a CE marked valve to almost any cylinder, doesn't mean it matches the spec so that they can fill it.
Dive shop stance is (and always will be) that anyone who operates a compressor can refuse to fill any cylinder for any reason, and has no obligation to even explain why. Of course, a decent shop will explain why for you so that you can try and fix it.
I used to fill a lot of tanks, and personally the only markings that mattered to me were evidence that it had a CE stamp, and that it was in test. Next challenge is the dive industry 2.5 and 5 year test cycle, which they are going to want, even though that should only apply to cylinders used underwater (and as such with significantly increased risk of water ingress)
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If you are anywhere near the peak district or sheffield and sometimes St. Helens, I'll refill it for you for beer money. I have a 300bar cylinder and the connecting kit
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@kmurray, Time to find a new dive shop, These jobsworths have been trained beyond their intelligence.
207 bar in America is the same pressure in Europe last time I checked.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@jimmjimm, nice idea, but if they fill a tin with the wrong stamp and it explodes, it has the same amount of explosive energy as a hand grenade and their insurance won't cover it when an employee is vaporised. Oh, and almost new tanks do explode now and again, usually due to some weird standard they've been manufactured to.
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Yes but this isn't a tin can ,nor a weird standard, It's an aluminium cartridge manufactured to dot standards.
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You know it makes sense.
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@jimmjimm, dot standards that the EU and uk don't recognise, so no insurance if it goes pop.
This is not jobsworth stuff. This is HSE investigation and go to jail if you get it wrong stuff.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thanks for the replies again and the offer to fill Rogersavery, I appreciate that.
I am writing today to Mammut to ask if they can provide evidence that the tri mark that the cartridge has, the PI+DOT+TC is an acceptable equivalent to the EN mark that this dive shop say is mandatory for filling.
I think that the information will be buried in the standards books and probably unintelligible to me ,so am hoping that they can provide a document that makes it clear that the marks that the cartridge comes with are sufficient and comply with the required European standard.
I will also raise the point that the PI+TC+ ISO marks pertaining to the cylinder are only on a paper sticker and not stamped into the body of the cylinder as per the DOT stamps.
I will of course post any feedback that I get.
Thanks again for everyones input.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I had to contact Mammut regarding my unit and they were excellent. Email is quicker. I have sent you private message with the Heads of Product and Customer Service at Mammut.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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22 dropout...thanks for that I have emailed the general contact but will email the Head of Product too...
Regards
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hello All,
Small update with regard to the situation I reported on in the original post , where my local dive shop refused to fill my aluminium cartridge claiming that it was not a legal standard in Europe. They held their ground and continued to state that it was not legal. I asked Mammut head of product to provide me with a document proving that the cylinder was legal in Europe and the response was that the law was complex but maintained that it was certified to an international standard. They did not provide any further evidence that the cylinder met the required European standard for me to go back to my local dive shop so that was a dead end for me. They also acknowledged the dive shops right to refuse to fill any cylinder.
However Mammut in conjunction with the UK retailer Backcountry UK came up with an acceptable solution which was to take my aluminium cartridge back and provide me with 1 carbon and 1 steel cylinder for me to test the bag annually so I was pretty happy with that.
I was pleased at the way Mammut and the retailer dealt with this and happy with the outcome , both were communicative and keen to resolve the issue, top marks to both Mammut and Backcountry UK for good helpful service.
Thanks to everyone for their info and insights.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hi, thanks for keeping everyone up to date. Very useful.
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