 Poster: A snowHead
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So, I am sure this has been asked before, but I couldn't find it, so here goes..!
My question starts with the first diamond, presented to my other half a year ago in La Tania, leading to the end of freedom this January! Fortunately that is accompanied by the honeymoon, and the opportunity to (finally!) ski out west! We are heading to Whistler for 6 days skiing (followed by a week on the beach) this January. (keep it on the down low, its a secret to her  )
I have been excitedly going over the piste maps, and planning what to do! My question is about the black diamonds, and specifically those in Whistler. Most of my skiing has been in France, where I am happy to ski any piste, and will have no worries heading off to an unknown piste, knowing that I can ski it. I can get down if it is icy moguls, normally without falling, but might not have much grace. Things like the Grand Couloir, Swiss wall, are fun in good conditions, hard work but ok in bad. Ive done some guided off piste, which I love. I can not jump turn.
Other half will ski most blacks (quite well!), but for example was not interested in The Grand Couloir once she saw the entry.
So...what about this double diamond chat? Is there a danger that I will get to the top of something I genuinely can't safely get down?? Given that I do want to push myself! And do I need to keep the .... wife  .... away from them? What about the single diamonds?
Cheers for any help!
G
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's a difficult question to answer because the skiing in the US and Canada is very different to Europe. Double black diamonds may include very tight runs between trees, chutes and very steep bump runs and generally don't include a pisted run like many of the European blacks. I've never been to whistler so can't comment specifically on the area but sounds like you might be ok on some but your wife maybe better sticking to the single blacks.
I think you could potentially get yourself into trouble. If you want to push yourself hire a guide for a day to show you the area, he could assess your standard and show you the best runs to suit your ability.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It's a difficult question to answer because the skiing in the US and Canada is very different to Europe. Double black diamonds may include very tight runs between trees, chutes and very steep bump runs and generally don't include a pisted run like many of the European blacks. I've never been to whistler so can't comment specifically on the area but sounds like you might be ok on some but your wife maybe better sticking to the single blacks.
I think you could potentially get yourself into trouble. If you want to push yourself hire a guide for a day to show you the area, he could assess your standard and show you the best runs to suit your ability.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^ agree!
In Banff I did a few single black diamonds and would say they were on a par with European red runs and maybe easier blacks. I'm OK on European blacks like Face/Sache in Val/Tignes but I would never attempt the Grand Couloir, the Swiss Wall or Le Tunnel in LDA. Too scared!
However the double diamonds in Canada seemed to be a different story. Some are skiable by competent advanced skiers, and some involved cliffs, steeps and chutes and you had to have a shovel/probe/transceiver/special permission to go through the gates to get to them. Areas like Delirium Dive and the Wild West in Sunshine Village (which were shut anyway) should only be skied by proper experts who are happy hucking cliffs and skiing on super-steep off-piste terrain.
However a few people in our group tried another couple of double diamonds in the main Sunshine Village area and managed to ski them (I think one was called Waterfall which was literally a frozen waterfall with snow on top!). They found them pretty tough. However if you can happily ski the Grand Couloir I expect you'd be fine. I'd get local advice on which ones to try in Whistler.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sat 6-12-14 8:24; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If grand couloir freaked out the missus out you probably don't want to be thinking too much of double diamonds - in Whistler they can be stuff like Saudan's and some of the Ruby/Garnet lines. Even many single blacks might be different to what you are used to, glades etc. Advantage is you can see most stuff and check if you fancy it first and bowls are a great intro to off piste.
However there is nowhere like the Dive referenced above in Whistler re kit requirements.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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BTW single diamond groomer and a single diamond regular line may be very different. They don't tend to think of off piste being this entirely separate thing there so most people grow up skiing everything.
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If you add going through gates, make sure you know what lies ahead. I often take a tour (some ski schools offer) or the advanced lesson (which is usually a tour) to get the lay of the land. Then they can tell you where else to try also. Groomed stuff hardly gets to double and black groomed is probably no problem for either of you.
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It's my understanding (and limited experience - Banff, Nakiska and Jasper) that, generally, Canadian ski areas will have some sort of guided tour to let you get a feel for the hill. This is free as it is provided by local volunteers (I think they get free lift passes), and I'm sure that you could ask advice then. Also remember that there is no language barrier and the staff (in my experience) are really friendly - chat to a liftie or a patroller for hints of where is good that day.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lots of them have an easier way down/around to meet up lower down and aren't that long (eg you can do couloir extreme and she does green line) - so you can test the (frozen) water so to speak and judge for your new wife (ahem!).
There are also easier double diamonds - often with one main challenge (IME!) - eg runs into west bowl (if there is a hole throigh the cornice), blowhole (if its not pure ice). As said above you can have a look from above, but also below on the chair up
In a pretty similar situation to you have both my wife (5 weeks on snow then) and I really enjoyed Pakalolo (we'd been told it was the easist! but a lovely little adventure) and West Bowl (hole in cornice) - you can have a very good look at both of these on the chair up; she loved Spanky's ladder (a must do IMO -the hard bit is the ice ladder up which I didnt like so much!) - there is a choice of routes on the way down; however she wouldn't do couloir extreme (I think the name worries her) and we met at the bottom (where she comforted me and told me I was brave - just married you see!).
We asked the locals - the runs are short so it was quite easy to get a description - eg how many tough bits, what is the main challenge?
Great resort all round, great choice for a honeymoon - have a great wedding & good luck!
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You'd be best looking at what's good and riding that. I guess you mean that you're looking for steeper stuff.
In Whistler... some of the steeper things need a fair bit of snow and don't fill in early season. You will see people riding stuff, but that doesn't mean it's fun, you need to use your skill and judgement. In my view it helps if you know your way around a bit too, so you don't get into things you don't want to be in. So I'd start by getting oriented. It's not France, so as someone said you can get "guided tours" of the slopes for free if you like that sort of thing, although they'll not take you to any sporting places. If you actually want someone to take you somewhere serious then look at something like Extremely Canadian who'll hire you a local "pro" for the day who'll show you the secret spots. The locals are friendly and speak a sensible language.
The Grand Couloir in Courchevel... well that, like this, is hugely dependent on what it's covered with... so I'd say Whistler's not hugely different from France in that respect. If it's within the boundary, it's controlled terrain so you can in principle ride it, so long as you're not otherwise directed (that is: it's not roped off, or your dad owns the resort). They will probably close (say) a chute which isn't filled in enough, because if it wasn't closed and you rode it, they'd have to come and get you. There are many other reasons for things to be closed. So if it's not lined off, you can ride it, but that doesn't mean it's "in condition" - that's for you to decide.
There are closed areas, but not (when I last looked) an area in bounds where you're mandated to take special gear. It's easy to cross the boundary if you want, where gear would be a good idea. You'll see lots of tourists with transceivers in Whistler; they probably ride the bunny hill. You should be able to rent gear if you need it from eg Summit Sports. You'd both need to know how to use it, and two isn't a great size for an off piste party, of course. Note that there is mobile coverage across the resort, and it works and outside the boundaries in some places (not that I'd rely on that... blah blah).
I've been riding now and then at Whistler since the 1980s so I don't actually know what the piste map looks like, but I'd say that you probably can't get to anything serious without walking up. That too is like the Grand Couloir: the walk is a "wally stopper".
Early season most of the steeper stuff is probably closed. You can spy it out from the rest of the resort and see. Whistler is a bit of a zoo, so you will get wannabe idiots doing stuff when it's going to be unpleasant, so just because you see someone doing something doesn't mean it's going to be good. Locals may give you some good pointers, but the secret stashes will remain secret.
There are a few things which in my warped world view are useful to absorb about Whistler:- It's coastal. So don't be surprised by rain (go high to avoid it). Wet snow settles fast, so ride it as it falls, do not wait (it goes "upside down" - heaviest on top).
- Most piste traffic funnels down to a couple of main places, so those places get busy. They have speed cops, but it's a bit of a zoo. Other places will be empty.
- Most people are gregarious and very predictable. They start late and queue for the lift together. They never use "singles" lines. They all take lunch at the same predictable time. They all ride home at the same early time. My approach is to never stand in line, never wait to be served coffee, avoid the crowds... easy to do, just don't synchronize your time with the hordes.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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You need to treat yourself to the Advanced/Expert Edition of 'Ski and Snowboard Guide to WB' by Brian Finestone and Kevin Hodder. Should be available in resort everywhere, and possibly online so you can start planning before hand! I've got the Intermediate version - so assuming it's the same format... It describes all the runs - how narrow, bumpy, busy, difficult, worthwhile etc etc they are. An amazing little book....
Have a look at http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/whistler/a-snow-guide-for-experts/Content?oid=2273449 for a review/description of book.
Enjoy!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| philwig wrote: |
I've been riding now and then at Whistler since the 1980s so I don't actually know what the piste map looks like, but I'd say that you probably can't get to anything serious without walking up. That too is like the Grand Couloir: the walk is a "wally stopper".
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Not entirely true - in fact not very true at all - there are a whole load of areas you can get yourself into big trouble without any hiking (chainsaw ridge, west ridge, VD trees, Kyber Pass, cakehole (really big trouble here!),...)
January is tricky as it might snow a bit, but is still a bit early season - it will be this year unless something epic happens. This year, a bit like last, has been a combination of either cold weather, or warm and wet, but not yet both together. The upper mountain has been getting a bit though and this is where most of the double blacks are.
Good thing about Whistler is you can normally take a look at some of the more challenging runs then ski round if you don't like it, or meet up with those who don't. every chair has a green run down.
Would suggest you start somewhere like the Harmony zone, harmony horseshoes that you can find of harmony ridge. you can then peer into each one of these in turn to decide if you like what you see, and if not move on - eventually you get to low roll which you can go in higher for steeper or lower for an easy roll in. The ridge run itself continues on back to the Harmony chair if you don't fancy any of them. In this area there are quite a range of runs you can head off either side - good ones to get going with are sun bowl, gun-barrels, the horseshoes, rabbit tracks, kaleidoscope, boomer bowl, and a few that you'll need someone to show you the way 
On Blackcomb, take a trip up to the glacier. Go up the crystal chair, then the t-bar, then a very short hike and traverse takes you to the top of the blowhole - it looks hardcore but actually isn't, it's the same pitch as the blue run that is the glacier next to it. From here a ton of routes down and you can look up to the left and assess if you like the idea of the gem bowls accessed by spankies ladder 
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You know it makes sense.
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Wow! This thread is making me want to beeline to Whistler and let rip!
I had heard double diamonds were the equivalent to naturide/natur pistes in places like Tignes and les Arcs. Which @SkiG is clearly well able for. Are you saying that someone who is well able for the gnarliest of these is susceptible to getting into trouble on marked trails in Whistler?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'd be surprised given the number of Americans I've skied with in courses such as Piste to Powder who allegedly rip up all the double blacks at home and struggle with not overly difficult terrain in St Anton
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Poster: A snowHead
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Stuarth +1 loads covered there.
Take care double blacks are generally never pisted at all and off the tops will include tight tree glades. Very few of the Blacks are Pisted either !
Good news is there is a free "show me round the mountain by locals" every day and for different levels. Just meet up at the light board 11am (I think - better check website).
Also as mentioned earlier the great news with Whistler is that off every lift there is always a green option so anyone can get down and meet back at the lift.
Bad news is that the Blues & Blacks are actually just defining its harder than the Green options hence there are some very hard Blues and very hard Blacks. Go on the tours to find what you like.
Also the tops will probably not be open in Jan as there maybe not enough snow or too much and it is shut for avalanches.
As Stuarth says Harmony and Crystal chair areas are great - they did not increase the uplift capacity at both of these last season for no reason.
Have a look at Google Maps and run the runs on street view
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oh and the Max4 classes are good. They are small mainly guiding with a little concept of ski improvement "lessons" tailored to the relevant levels you both are. So you can ski at the level you want right the way up to crazy if that is what floats your boat.
Don't miss first tracks too - especially at the beginning of your holiday as if you go straight there from the Airport you will be up at 5am anyway so you may as well be up the mountain before the main lift start time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| I'd be surprised given the number of Americans I've skied with in courses such as Piste to Powder who allegedly rip up all the double blacks at home and struggle with not overly difficult tserrain in St Anton |
Well there's a few factors here.
Americans taking a Piste to Powder course are not necessarily those who ski outside the gates all the time.
Not all resorts grade double blacks equally, some flattish places naturally inflate grades to get a distribution.
Natural hyperbole.
US runs don't have the very and variability of conditions you can easily get in Europe hence stamina and having to adapt.
Whistler is not in Merika
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Indeed. You have to understand people's culture a bit in order to interpret how they describe their own ability.
It's not actually BS, you just have to understand culturally what people are going to answer when you ask them "how good are you". Try working in the snow business for a bit and you'll soon realize that you can't deal with Americans as if they came from Rochdale. The language is similar, but that's all.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
Wow! This thread is making me want to beeline to Whistler and let rip!
I had heard double diamonds were the equivalent to naturide/natur pistes in places like Tignes and les Arcs. Which @SkiG is clearly well able for. Are you saying that someone who is well able for the gnarliest of these is susceptible to getting into trouble on marked trails in Whistler? |
Nope, I was saying there are lots of places in Whistler that you can get to without hiking that you can get into trouble, don't recall saying anything about any of them being marked double black trails.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| peanuthead wrote: |
| I'd be surprised given the number of Americans I've skied with in courses such as Piste to Powder who allegedly rip up all the double blacks at home and struggle with not overly difficult terrain in St Anton |
I take it home wasn't Jackson Hole!
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@stuarth, sorry misunderstood you.
So do you agree that a good skier that can handle any naturide run in France should be able to handle most double diamonds in Canada?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@peanuthead, most, yes. Most of my resort skiing in Canada has been at Whistler and I would say that some of the stuff (eg some of the Spanky's ladder lines) is a level beyond any marked run I have done in Europe
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I haven't been to Whistler but from what I've seen at Fernie and Kicking Horse and various US resorts is very different to skiing French naturide areas. The naturide areas I have skied in Tignes and St Foy are not pisted and pretty steep in places but they are mostly wide open so you have plenty of time and space to pick a line and make your turns. In Fernie many of the double blacks were either glades or chutes - much more difficult IMO. At Kicking Horse its more open but with some fairly big exposures, which if you're not used to that can make your back bottom twitch a bit.
So, I'm not convinced you can really expect Canadian double blacks, or certainly not the ones I've skied, to be like the naturide areas in France typically. I could probably ski pretty much any marked run in Europe without too much hassle but I've got myself into places in the US and Canada (in bounds) where I have had the fear and needed to work really hard to get down in one piece.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I don't think I've ever come across anything marked in Europe that compares to some of the lines at Fernie & KH either (&they are often not individually signed anyway). e.g. if you were telling someone how to get to Anaconda Glades - well you either ski over that cheese grater or under it, traverse hard hop up the ridge a bit when you flat out and then dive off the ridge to your left - just aim for some trees then try to work out a way through them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks for the replies! I suppose one of the things that I forget is that there is no language barrier, so having a chat with the locals is easy! It sounds like I should probably go on the free tour and get to grips with the area. It sounds like I would be best to approach the double diamonds myself, give them a go and send the OH the easy way down, then bring her the next time if all looks to be ok. Definitely will take on board the advice re conditions, our first day on snow is the 19th of Jan, I hadn't really thought of that as being particularly early season, but I guess that will also depend on when the snow finally comes!
Really appreciate the suggestions for areas to ski, if there are other runs definitely to get in please do let me know!
| Cygnet wrote: |
You need to treat yourself to the Advanced/Expert Edition of 'Ski and Snowboard Guide to WB' by Brian Finestone and Kevin Hodder. Should be available in resort everywhere, and possibly online so you can start planning before hand! I've got the Intermediate version - so assuming it's the same format... It describes all the runs - how narrow, bumpy, busy, difficult, worthwhile etc etc they are. An amazing little book....
Have a look at http://www.piquenewsmagazine.com/whistler/a-snow-guide-for-experts/Content?oid=2273449 for a review/description of book.
Enjoy! |
Thanks for this, managed to find somewhere to buy a copy here second hand so should arrive in a few days!
My other thought is whether or not to go Cat skiing (or even Heli skiing) if the budget will stretch! I think the best plan is probably to wait and see what conditions are like out there? I don't want to prebook and then find myself spending the money to do it when the conditions aren't really worth it. Some of the Cat skiing seems to cater for groups newish to off piste (the other half has played a bit off piste, not allot), so that might be something we could both do, if perhaps in different groups. (alternatively she might want a morning in the spa  )
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My mates run Powder Mountain in Whistler.
You can book ahead, and so long as you give 24 hours or more notice, whatever the reason, they don't charge you. On the other hand waiting also works. They book up at peak periods and sometimes when the resort doesn't have any fresh. The weather doesn't always play ball, and they may need to cancel you (they don't want to take you to ride tracked snow or nasty stuff), so don't leave it until the last day.
Cats work well for those who're a little unsure of themselves. You're limited by the speed of the machine, they have guides front and back so they can split the group, people can ride down in the cat if they're tired, all that stuff. That said, the cats also work very well for experts at a resort.
For Powder Mountain, talk to the operations manager Gord, who tries as hard as he can to sort all that out.
The Scandinave spa is the place to go for maximal decadence.
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You know it makes sense.
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SkiG,
I've only skied 10 days at Whistler but I've skied the Courchevel couloirs a lot. I'd say that some Whistler double blacks are tighter and steeper than the Gd Couloir. Probably more like the angle of Sous La Tele or the top narrow section of the Meribel couloir.
I did a day heliskiing with Whistler Heliski. I recommend it as a fun taster but it is not the full Heli experience as they tend to put a large number of skis on big easy bowls - you don't get the small groups, wilder feel and challenging terrain of the lodge based multi day heli trips. Certainly think your OH would be able to cope it wasn't very demanding.
Have fun
J
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@philwig,
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That too is like the Grand Couloir: the walk is a "wally stopper".
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What walk? You ski down the ridge from the cable car to the Gd Couloir? Admittedly the ridge is narrow and tends to be bumpy which does tend to put off the less confident.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| What walk? You ski down the ridge from the cable car to the Gd Couloir? Admittedly the ridge is narrow and tends to be bumpy which does tend to put off the less confident. |
<shrug> The ridge is a "wally stopper" because it is a little scary for some people, so it keeps the numbers of beginners lower than it would otherwise be. In the Whistler stuff we were discussing there's a small walk which has a similar effect on many people, in my experience. Your mileage may vary.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| philwig wrote: |
[*]Most people are gregarious and very predictable. They start late and queue for the lift together. They never use "singles" lines. They all take lunch at the same predictable time. They all ride home at the same early time. My approach is to never stand in line, never wait to be served coffee, avoid the crowds... easy to do, just don't synchronize your time with the hordes.
[/list] |
Yup - people in Whistler love Emerald lift for some reason which means you should never ride it except for very early or late in the day. There's no getting over things like powder day line for Peak chair to open but there is lots you can achieve with a little bit of thinking around less obvious lifts (no idea what the new Crystal chair does to this theory on Blackcomb - the old one used to be a banker).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
[*]Most people are gregarious and very predictable. They start late and queue for the lift together. They never use "singles" lines. They all take lunch at the same predictable time. They all ride home at the same early time. My approach is to never stand in line, never wait to be served coffee, avoid the crowds... easy to do, just don't synchronize your time with the hordes.
[/list] |
Yup - people in Whistler love Emerald lift for some reason which means you should never ride it except for very early or late in the day. There's no getting over things like powder day line for Peak chair to open but there is lots you can achieve with a little bit of thinking around less obvious lifts (no idea what the new Crystal chair does to this theory on Blackcomb - the old one used to be a banker). |
Avoid Emerald by carrying on down Olympic and using Garbanzo Lift Which come out at Chic Pea hut and is generally empty. Can't get up to RoundHouse that way but you can using Red Chair (don't before 10:30 though, as all Creekside are queueing for it) They really do need to put at least a 6 pack in to Emerald some time soon as it is silly. There was a rumour about doing that and using the old chair over the back of the peak to give another 2000 acres to ski without walking. Maybe the new stats they will get with finally putting RFID on each lift will show them what needs upgrades.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@SkiG,
We were in Whistler over Christmas, and several other days, so a roving conditions update....
You should be good for your tour of terror, even with the slightly weird snow this year, the top of the mountain has got a lot and is pretty well filled in probably as well or better than normal for this time of year. Was chatting with someone I know who's an Extremely Canadian coach a few weeks ago and he said they'd already been in action.
Mid mountain not quite so good, still needs a bit more for most of the tree runs to go. At the bottom is mostly man made, however mostly you don't ski down here except to ski out, and it has been a lot cooler over the last few days and snowed quite a bit so should be fine - even the north shore mountains are getting open at last
(oh and hardly lined up anywhere - not even Boxing Day which is normally crazy busy! )
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Obvious, perhaps, but the snow conditions make a huge difference to the doubles. Outer Limits is a fun gladed run in new snow (with an easy to get to alternative) but terrifying if it is all bobsled tracks. Couloirs like pakalolo or Couloir Extreme can be tight, but doable or icy and terrifying. Generally, the 'death fall' potential is limited, even in bad conditions, but you might find yourself bouncing a bit (ask me how I know this....).
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Great, thanks for the update!
Looking good from what you are saying stuarth, and another nearly three weeks to go so hopefully the snow will keep coming!
This will give me a good idea of things to get me started, think I will be doing plenty of trial runs solo before going back round with her in tow if appropriate!
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FAQ
) but far less forgiving Blackcomb version by climbing Spankies ladder and turning left along the ridge to the high entrance to Ruby bowl.
