 Poster: A snowHead
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Last week, whilst in La plagne, my 22 year old son was behind us on the Arpette chair. Its a 4 person chair and, at the time, the queue was small. However, one of the local ski schools was using the priority system to drop off its pupils, estimated to be aged between 5 and 8, one at a time. My son ended up on the chair alone with a child he reckoned was no older than 6. Importantly, they were not sitting side by side. During the early part of the journey the child started shuffling around and with his hands off the safety bar (which was down) started to slide underneath it. According to my son, it was only through him grabbing the child and sitting him back on the chair that prevented him from falling, probably over 100 feet, onto the rocks below.
Do others in this forum relate to this event? It seems to me that there are 2 main problems and, with my limited experience, I wonder if they are common. First, a chair/safety bar design which could allow this to happen. Secondly, a failure of the ski school to ensure its pupils are adequately supervised whilst on a lift.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 15-04-04 17:39; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Scarey story, Colin.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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When I was an almost complete beginner I got pressured into taking a small kid up on a chair lift. At the time I wondered what good I'd do given that I was worrying about me getting on and off the chairlift and not falling off myself. At least it was a small two man where the gaps are smaller and I would have been closer to the kid to catch him.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes, its was PG's earlier thread on "Accident in Italy" which struck a chord.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think it's important that the instructor asks if it's ok for the child to be put on the same chair - more often than not he/she doesn't bother - something which I've had words with instructors about before. It's vital that you're not sitting at the opposite end of a 4 or 6-person chair of course, and it's crazy if the instructor allowed this to happened.
No other supervision system would be practical - and there are plenty of good skiers more than happy to oblige. As for renewing all the chairlifts... well yes, in theory - but again, the cost.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 14-04-04 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have frequently been accompanied on chairs by kids from a ski school group (although, from memory, only in France) and there appears to be an assumption (either explicitly requested by the Instructor or unspoken) that the adult(s) will keep a watchful eye on the brat. I have indeed had to perform the same action as your son Colin. This raises obvious questions - not least, is it possible to make a "kid proof" chair? (bearing in mind some chairs in the US have no safety bar at all). It would be impractical for a ski school adult to accompany every kid, so should they use chairs at all? Having said that, has there ever been an accident under these circumstances? No doubt DG will have some stats for us ... 
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I was asked a number of times in Canada by the instructor to look after some of his/her charges on a chair... no mishaps though.
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Well, since we are adults, we are supposed to be thinking, what do we need, an instructor to tell us that we must sit close to a 6 y.o. to avoid him falling down?
Cannot we see that safety bars are thought for normal sized persons and not for
5-8 y.o children?
IIRC there is usually a notice posted at the bottom of every chairlift advicing that no children under 8 or smaller tha 130 cm can ride the chair alone, and this is for a reason, isn't it?
Whenever it happens, if I don't have my own children to take care of that is, I offer my help to take care of one or more children of a class. It is my duty as an adult (even if I'm adult in size and not in brain, tee hee). Don't wait for the instructor to ask, offer your help. I do this, and I like to think that whenever my children take a lesson, other adults behave the same way with them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This is not to say that I feel at ease while riding a chair, I am usually very nervous, and keep a close eye on the kid(s). I require them to grip the safety bar as well. Must I think that so far I've been lucky? Should I stop to care and try to avoid offering my help to avoid responsibility an accident should occour?
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I have accompanied ankle biters on chairs frequently, & I have to say that I've always been asked politely by the instructor if I would mind doing so. I've always been sat next to the child as well, not at opposite ends of a 4/6 seater.
What would happen if aforementioned child that was sat with Colin's son had fallen off the chair? Who would be responsible? By agreeing to take children on lifts are you consenting to accept responsibility for them? Surely they remain the responsibility of the ski school for the duration of the lesson? (I'm thinking "out loud" here)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Qualified French instructors will jump on and prosecute any British instructor doing their job on the slope. When it come to making use of the skiers to do their job they are pretty slick too.
My experience is same as PG. They are supposed to but not always bother to ask. They apparently know that they are not popular with people in the long queue. Sometimes they also ferry a large group to a steep red slope and all those arriving at the top of the chairlift before the instructor are unsupervised.
It seems to be a French thing too. Loads of very young school children doing their PE lessons on the slope and obviously subsidised by revenue from the skipasses. Also this problem seems to stand out in La Plagne from my recollection of its bad points.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 14-04-04 17:24; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I had a similar situation in Feb in La Plagne but not quite as drastic. A small child about 5 years old, sat next to my wife. She tried to make conversation (in English) but not much joy really, just a blank look. The bar was some distance to their body as you might expect. Some way up the lift the child lent forward (but she did have their hands on the bar). My wife thought she might be slipping through so she grabbed hold of the kid by the scruff of the neck to stop her. As it turned out I think the child was just leaning forward to look at the ground below but it did make us wonder what could happen.
Thinking about this and other reports of young children getting killed in conveyor type belts, do the authorities have to conduct risk assessments? Surely the potential really does exist for some poor child to slip off a chair if no adult is within arms reach. Wouldn't an individual bar like they have on roller coaster rides be better ~ even if there is a cost implication?
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One thing i noticed when it happened to me,was they let me go on the chair alone.......either i was too ugly or the Snowboard put them off. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
First, a chair/safety bar design which could allow this to happen.
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The safety bars and footrests (and Arpette does have rests - unlike some) have to be 'one size fits all' but unfortunately a small 5 year old could easily slip under the bar and probably never reached the foot rest. Anyone of any size sitting well back in the chair will be OK but tiny tots wriggling around are at risk. The only thing that comes to mind would be perhaps a clip-on extension bar to force them further back into the seat but I've never seen such a device.
The only practical solution is for them to be closely supervised. Which reminds me -when very small my son nagged his Mum all day to do something. NO, No, No, Not until Daddy's home, she replied at intervals getting more and more fed up..... and lastly 'Not without supervision'. He thought for a minute and said "There's nothing wrong with my eyesight" 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've just got off of the phone from our practise nurse at the local doctors surgery, she has just come back from Banff. Whilst we were chatting about it, she said that she was really surprised at how old fashioned some of the lifts were there, but in particular that there seemed to be a lot with no foot rests. She said they were really concerned that a child could slide off, under the bar. A surprising fact considering that our cousins over the pond are such a litigeous (spelling?) lot!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Like Chris Reed's point, my son is a two week skier so not experienced. He probably didn't recognise the danger initially and responded instinctively I've also noticed teenagers (treated as adults) on lifts chatting away,as they do, probably oblivous to the potential dangers I describe. As always, no simple or cheap solutions. Perhaps, like driving, we should all take a test before we're allowed to take to the slopes and lifts!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| It seems to be a French thing too. Loads of very young school children doing their PE lessons on the slope and obviously subsidised by revenue from the skipasses. |
saikee, Local kids, local residents in general, quite rightly get cheap lift passes as I see it ... Residents contribute in many ways to the community, not least through local taxes (eg paying off the funicular debts in Les Arcs), and the only quid pro quo is cheaper passes. After all we and our kids are on the mountain for perhaps a month or two during the season, we eat and drink, buy goods and services, throughout the year. Probably a majority of the parents are employed in some form or other by ski tourism-linked businesses. The race clubs produce the occasional top-flight skier who is invariably used as a promotional tool by the resort.
I honestly do not feel that I am subsidised by the lift passes purchased by tourist visitors! Swings and roundabouts....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ive never been asked but every time I get one of the little blighters dumped on me I put the fear of god into them by telling them the horrific tale of what happens should you try and fidget/ take your hands off the bar (obviously my story ends in a grizzly painful death) - only ever had children dumped on me in France though.
In Arinsal they seemed to have a really great system for the tiddlers ski school on lifts - always 3 kids to 1 adult on the lift- god knows how they managed it- think all the instructors (including those teaching adults) helped out, but my little brother was always telling us about how they had to get in to height order!!?!?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In America they have a better system. It's called the NRA.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG,
It didn't bother me at all how our skipass money goes into the local community and bring up children to enjoy the local surrounding must be supported. I am just curious to see the the post on "British skiing instructor fined 10,000 Euro" picking up enormous amount of posts daily due the high feeling around.
There have been discussions of how high the standard the French skiing instructors must achieve for the qualification so that our British instructions, lacking the equivalent qualification but doing the same job, are worthy of the penalty and condemnation.
Yet the very basic safety consideration of looking after the young children by the French instructor really surprises everybody here.
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saikee, a very valid point. Double standards are evident in other ways too. Not exclusively French though, we all tend to 'protect our corners'. The difference is that British instructors want to work in France - and not the other way around - so the problems appear to be the result of protectionism in France alone.... I do wonder what the Scots would have done had the boot been on the other foot.
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I cannot see why anyone should complain about skipass money going into the local community. After all it is the local community who maintain the ambiance environment and culture of an area and that is the reason why we go back.
Visitors maintaining the pubs, resturants and hotels we I live means that there is employment and therefore a community which cares about and looks after the Cheviots and the Northumbrian coast. Also it is the locals who maintain the coastguard, RNLI and cheviot rescue teams on a voluntary basis, so that anyone (including visitors) can come and enjoy it all in relative safely.
If people didn't subsidise the locals a lot of activities wouldn't run - to the loss of the locals who couldn't afford to run it on their own, but also to the loss of the visitors. Rather a symbiotic relationship as oppose to a them and us when put like that, I think.
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It is my experience that the French put a lot of effort into educating their school children to ski, to the point it becomes obvious to every visitor outside their country. I do not find any similar inconvenience or obstruction while skiing in neighbouring Switzerland, Austria and Italy.
Every country teaches their children to ski but only the French expect you to take care of their pupils on the chairlift. They sometimes ask the first visitor to keep an eye on the pupil and expect all the rest of the visitors know what to do with their school children.
If this is the high standard achieved by the French instructors then I do have complaint because of
(1) The subsidised skiing children always have top priority over the the fee-paying visitors.
(2) They use visitors to help them to manage large classes (other countries do not seem to have such large skiing classes as the French and are more manageable and disciplined)
(3) They prevent outsiders from doing instructor jobs by prosecuting them not having their qualifications.
One member has flagged it up already. I wouldn't know where the visitor's legal position stands if a child under his/her care drop off from the chairlift. All this cary-on is not due to subsidy but the excess amount of it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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saikee, that's not quite correct. Local ski clubs always have to queue with the tourists. Large groups from schools likewise. The only exception is when they are accompanied by ESF (and other accredited resort) instructors (and when the lessons have been paid for, just as with tourist groups). (2) It's only the very small children who need help on the lifts, and these are only at resort level - the vast part of the domain is free of this problem. The kids involved are almost exclusively tourists, all nationalities - no locals. So the system benefits the holiday-maker. As for (3) we've done this ad nauseum, but the system is equitable, and the only people that are prevented from become instructors are those who are not up to the demands of the tests involved, irrespective of nationality. We now have equivalence.
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PG
Fair comments.
The kids I saw are small children with their local parents waiting at the bottom of the slope. They are common signs in the Chamonix valley too and quite rightly confined to the resort level. I was surprised to find them fairly high up in La Pagne.
I admit that the problem is by no mean widespread but it is not so noticeable outside France from my observation.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Ski Bunny wrote: |
I have accompanied ankle biters on chairs frequently, & I have to say that I've always been asked politely by the instructor if I would mind doing so. I've always been sat next to the child as well, not at opposite ends of a 4/6 seater.
What would happen if aforementioned child that was sat with Colin's son had fallen off the chair? Who would be responsible? By agreeing to take children on lifts are you consenting to accept responsibility for them? Surely they remain the responsibility of the ski school for the duration of the lesson? (I'm thinking "out loud" here) |
These are the same thought I entertain every time.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In La Plagne this March I witnessed two French instructors joined force together feeding god knows how many very small children as a production line to a twin-seat chairlift. The queue before their arrival was 25 to 30 strong. Couples and parent & children were broken up individually because one seat on each chairlift was grabbed by them.
I wonder how many are happy to drop off your own young child in favour of pairing with one handed over by the ESF.
If you are asked by the instructor, as D G Orf in Switzerland, you can at least have the option to refuse if it suits your personal circumstance.
If a skier sticks with the child until the instructor gets up to the chairlift top he or she will have a long time to wait in France. Members here have numerous reports on their liberal attitude of exceeding the declared maximum class size.
http://snowheads.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=1177
I give an impression that I wouldn't look after young children while I skiing. This isn't true. I just hate the French manner of refusing to ask for assistance. May be they have little regard of the English language and seldom bother to learn it so it is a dead end street for them.
Make me wonder how many of the members here are French origin.
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You know it makes sense.
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saikee,
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| In La Plagne this March I witnessed two French instructors joined force together feeding god knows how many very small children as a production line to a twin-seat chairlift. The queue before their arrival was 25 to 30 strong. Couples and parent & children were broken up individually because one seat on each chairlift was grabbed by them. |
Well all I can say is you are very unlucky. Over 5 seasons before the current one I skied between 10 and 12 weeks each year on the French slopes and I have yet to see parents separated from their own children in the manner you describe. If the British were to make the effort to learn a few words of the language of the country they are visiting, I'm sure most 'misunderstandings' could easily be avoided.
Just back down from Les Arcs myself, and on several occasions today it was a great pleasure to help out with the youngsters on the lifts. Their parents pay for their holidays, they are our future, I really can't see what the fuss is all about. The slopes are there as much for their benefit as ours, and rightly so.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Moderators Note
At this point the thread went severely off topic discussing languages. I've taken the liberty of splitting it off into a thread on its own - "Are the French better at English than the English at French".
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just back from Serre Chevalier, hubby took a small girl on the chairlift, who refused to take her feet off the bar, and then tried to stay on at the top. He had to physically haul her off. usually though the experience is rather more pleasant than that and he has had great conversations with kids of many nationalities. Not a problem in my opinion, just part of the experience. However, when my own kids were small, we used to refuse another child, as it was hard enough dealing with our own, and we would have had to split up. I do think though the ski classes for the really tiny kids, could do with a helper, to either wait at top or bottom of drags with kids, as some of them fall off and are stranded. The helper or teacher could then make sure they were safe.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Have been asked lots of times in France to accompany kids on a lift but i have always refused.
Sorry, but i'm not taking responsibility for some brat I don't know. The instructors are insured to instruct and look after the kids - it's what they are paid for! I bet i'm not insured to look after anyones brat, and what if something does happen............i bet it's you that gets to carry the can, prosicuted etc. Sorry but in my eyes it's not worth the risk in the sue culture we live in now!
I've got no problem with kids using the lifts, but it has to be in a safe manner. Far too many times i've seen the kids just dumped onto a lift with someone who has not been asked if they mind. The other problem is the language barrier between small french children and say english adults, of whom the vast majority do not have a good grasp of each others language? Surely the answer is for the "responsible" lifty to stop the lift while the kids are lifted on at the bottom, and then at the top, again stop the lift and lift all the kids off??? Ok, it takes a little longer on the lifts but everyone gets the opportunity to enjoy the mountains (as is their right!).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Helen Beaumont,
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| I do think though the ski classes for the really tiny kids, could do with a helper, to either wait at top or bottom of drags with kids, as some of them fall off and are stranded. |
Nasty experience for your husband. There's definitely room for improvement in the system - on Thursday I was about to get on on a really long and slow chairlift from Arc 2000 when an instructor turned up with ten 1* kids. The one I was politely asked to look after was 6 years old. Fifteen rather tense minutes followed as she was so tiny I felt she could slip under the bar in a split second. At the top end the liftie shot out of the his cabin as soon as he saw her bib, so they are obviously primed to help them off the more difficult lifts (this chair travelled slowly enough, but seemed to accelerate just as we arrived, and without a shove the little tot wouldn't have been able to get off).
Dan I doubt you would be held responsible in the event of an accident. However it is entirely right that you should be able to refuse to watch over a child on the lift if you would rather not do so. The language barrier is a problem - how do you tell a small French child to sit back on the chair properly if he/she's gradually sliding forwards, as mine was on Thursday? Ok for me, but for someone who could only stretch to "La plume de ma tante", not so easy to handle the situation....
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The language barrier was a prob for my hubby PG, his French is enough to get by in the bar, restaurant or supermarket, but not great for a conversation, so it was difficult for him to help her. Earkier in the day, we had been specificaaly asked by anothe instructor, because we were English, and so were his class.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As we are now in a time of horendous litigation , I query how any of the gentlemen here would feel if an aligation of improper behaviour (grabbing child to stop falling) was made against them and how they feel they could stand their corner if it was just them and the child on the lift together.Not a pleasant thought but for those of us who work with children something we are oftrn remined is to always make sure you have covered yourself.I am not able to move or hold a child whilst teaching them to ride(horses) without asking them first and I try to insure that parents are always around whilst a lesson is in progress.Just another tyhoughtr on this matter.
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nicky, That is a valid point, but I look at it from a slightly different angle. A toddler being placed on his own on a 15 minute slow chair next to a paedophile is hardly beyond the realms of possibility. Whereas I don't think that a genuine attempt to help - grabbing an arm is more probable than anything else - would be likely to cause you problems, in France at least. 'Normal' physical contact is far more acceptable here!
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Several of the chairlifts I rode last week had a bar that came down from the main one that fitted in between your legs (it didn't quite touch the seat). I'm guessing that it would be impossible for anyone to slip out of this.(although I did get a nasty bang on the head when I rode with my backpack on).
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I am in a pretty unusual situation here in as much as I have very close knowledge of the dangers of chair lifts and as a teacher well aware of the problems of responsibilty for children and the need to protect oneself against accusations. Last week in Les Arcs I happily took on the job of getting tots up the lift. I also expected my 14 year old son to do the same. Often we would go up a lift separately just so we could help out the ski schools when there were not many adults about. My feeling is that this is one of the things we must do to help perpetuate the sport of skiing and to give it a future. All adults should be ready and willing to help all children in my view. Just as you would help anyone who needed it in any other potentially dangerous situation.
It is the triumph of evil for good men to do nothing....(who wrote that???)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You did, just now. 
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| Chris Bish wrote: |
| It is the triumph of evil for good men to do nothing....(who wrote that???) |
It's usually attributed to Edmund Burke - but I don't think he ever wrote it.
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FAQ
Difficult situation for the instructors though as they need to pick out responsible adults just by looking at them and then have to hope no problems occur on the way up 