Ski Resort 10 year forward plan

A snowHead

Not often a French ski resort publishes a 10 year plan detailing which lifts replaced where and which lifts removed, but SAP, the lift co for La Plagne have done so and Romain Guigon's website http://www.perso-laplagne.fr has an interview with Jerome Grellet, Managing Director of the Company. It makes some interesting reading regarding the position of French ski resorts in general and the need to modernise and the pressures to form a joint approach required to move forward.

http://www.perso-laplagne.fr/Actualites.htm#13_12_14 in French

Google Translated into a form of English (Lift names are literally translated which is interesting and or confusing )
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A//www.perso-laplagne.fr/Actualites.htm%2313_12_14&hl=en&langpair=auto|en&tbb=1&ie=ISO-8859-1

A snowHead

Interesting language used by the MD of the lift company, talking about "downward spiral for some years", "declining appeal", "crisis", etc. Obviously the response of a lift company is to modernise the lift infrastructure, but is that a significant cause of the downward spiral faced by La Plagne and other French resorts? Or are there other factors? Perhaps the perception of value for money of things like on-hill eating and drinking? The cost and standard of accommodation? The perception of customer service ethos? Maybe even minor things like banning ski hosting? Seems to me that the quality of the uplift is a minor factor in deciding whether to go to a particular resort or not, at least in the main resorts which have a wide range of uplift.

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rob@rar, Interesting comments about future loss of Hot beds and Pierre et Vancances pulling out of Mountain holidays and the declining number of time share property. Re: ski hosting, if irc the Director of ESF Aime 2000 has stood along side the Director of ESF in La Rosiere in leading the 'action".

FWIW I think this might be the first tacit admittance of the declining ski market in France from a major resort.

A popular story is that La Plagne and Les Arcs are used by CdA (the parent company) as cash cows for the rest of the company, if so this huge investment over 10 years in La Plagne must be going to have an adverse affect on the other 17 CdA resorts?

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I won't be doing any more overpriced French industrial resorts if I can help it, lifts new or old I don't care about, being charged £8 a beer or £30 for a crap meal on the piste is what I'm more inclined to be put off by. There European cousins in Austria appear to have the right balance imho.

If only the lift co's had a bit of say in the day to day costs of the average punter

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Fascinating. La Plagne has always struck me as having a slightly odd layout of lifts, and the article seems to address a lot of the issues.

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denfinella, that's good, I was worried that it was only me that found found it so interesting!

After all it is free

I thought it was an interesting, open and honest article as well. I think they have been hit pretty hard as the French economy has restricted the number of 'home' visitors. When I was in Val Thorens this week I noticed there were very few French around and lots and lots of Russians. Must have been holidays for Russians.

Perhaps the root of their problems maybe related to this:

http://laplagne.livecam360.net/montalbert

The higher resorts seem to be doing pretty well and maybe with climate change progressing the lower resorts will continue to struggle.

@emwmarine, a few seasons ago there was just a man made strip down the middle of Montalbert, and then at midnight New Years Eve it started chucking it down with snow and didn't stop until lunchtime Very Happy

see below ...

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Montalbert 31st December 2006

Montalbert 1st January 2007

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@boredsurfin, ah yes, we arrived in Les Saisies on that new year's eve and the place was looking worse than I'd ever seen it (or have seen it since, even right at the end of the season) and then we woke to a good dump of fresh snow the following day and the snow was fine all week. Had been fairly rubbish at Christmas, I guess (though bright and sunny). My daughter's new boyfriend (now my son in law) was with us, he and I had driven through the night, so I was very glad the weather perked up for them.

A useful reminder to all those folk who are making ominous noises about the worst season ever. wink

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You know it makes sense.

pam w, or Friday wink

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A snowHead

Having not been to France to ski, I'm already put off by the stories of friends around cost but there is a lure of expansive skiing. The quality / cost of the accommodation puts the Mrs off so we end up going to a nicer place in Austria. Not sure if I'm typical as I haven't abandoned France I've just been put off in the initial stages of my short ski life.

A snowHead

Interesting that there is no mention of climate change as a threat. Also interesting what he says about the older pomas lasting 50 years with no major problems whereas the newer lifts are only expected to last 30 years. The change to expensive high capacity lifts is bound to put a strain on finances,particularly if skierr numbers are falling. Presumably that also means fewer queues! I agree however its not the lift infrastructure that puts me off la plagne, its the bleak runs, urban architecture and lack of pleasant cafes.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

My personal observations:
Pound for pound the skiing is better in France. On-piste for sure. More extensive. More challenging pistes. Naturide pistes are controlled and patrolled if they're open so you can lap them on your own. I don't like the Swiss/Austrian thing for converting challenging pistes into itineraries where it is nebulous if they are appropriate to ski alone. More likely to be ski-in/out and excellent lift system so once I finish skiing with OH and kids at 230 I can still get a serious ski in. (ironically above does not apply to LP).Off-piste I am not expert here but assuming all else equal it is easier to hook up with off piste group in France (even with esf)

This will be controversial: better ski schools in France. We all hate esf but some instructors in Austria are worse skiers than I am! There is bigger choice of ski schools in most French resorts so you can assure yourself of exclusively Brit instructors if that's important to you. You don't have monopolies like many Austrian resorts.

France is a bit more convenient to get to (for us anyway)

Standard of accommodation in France is just awful. Even 4-star hotels or premium residences are just terrible. The worst accommodation I have stayed in in Switzerland or Austria is better than best I've stayed in in France. This does make a difference

French resorts just feel dead. Full of tight French who drive there, pack the kitchen sink, and have no interest in spending money in evening. I am not into nightlife but it often doesn't feel like you're even on holidays. Whereas in Austria there's always a feelgood party feeling. Even if I'm not getting hammered it still adds to atmosphere

Personally as I am so obsessed with skiing the skiing comes first and what I feel many French resorts offer is opportunity to do more skiing and challenging skiing and hence progress my skiing so I tend to go back there, but I certainly see attraction of Austria / Switzerland for those who want a holiday first and foremost

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Obviously qualify above by acknowledging it is generalization and there is more variance within France than between France and other countries

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After 15 years of skiing France, the Doshes are looking at Canada for 2016......

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I think rip off drink prices are the action killer on après. When it costs 8 euros for a beer then you think twice about going to the bar, as those everyone else. The French market has way more self catering where people have children or are budgeting so aren't willing to spend. Maybe ski in ski out has the counter affect that people ski in!

I've been loads to morzine, which actually has pretty lively après but the same snow height issues suffered by some Austrian resorts.

After all it is free

I have always been a fan of LP - my son even learnt to ski there. However recently, I think they have started to overdevelop the ski area if this makes sense. When LP was originally conceived back in the 1960's / 70's the original hubs of Plagne Center, Aime La Plagne and Plagne Bellecotte had lifts radiating out from them to provide uplift. More recently the resort has allowed the developements of Plagne Soleil, Villages and Belle Plagne to be built above the original hubs. Skiers staying in these resorts tend to ski down to the original hubs to get the lifts back up thereby putting huge pressure on the lift system particularly in Bellecote. A classic case in my mind of overdevelopment of a ski area which has now spoilt it.

@madlondoner, +1

Every time i've been to France there has not been any après. Admittedly I have not ventured to the big resorts of Val Thorens or Val d'isere but every resort I have been to at about 5 it dies.

The last time I went was to the tiny resort of Chamrousse, being tiny and at the end of season probably didn't help things but beer was about 6 euros if remember despite trying to go out it was useless so we ended up buying wine for 2 Euro a bottle and having our own party. 6 euros may not sound a lot compared to the prices some of you where / are paying but the fact know one else was out and we did a whole week on a budget of £400, i'll take the 2 euro wine anyday - not that it help my head.

Verbier / Nandez last year though was fantastic.

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On the subject of apres ski I would agree that many French resorts are not very lively. I don't think the architecture of some of the resorts helps. Where you have an underground shopping mall consisting of narrow dark passageways, usually very hot with no outside windows such as those of Les Menuires, La Plagne, Flaine etc these types of environment just don't lend themselves to a good apres vibe. At least in Val D'Isere, Meribel etc that do have more apres one can actually walk down a street with shops bars etc lining it. Perhaps the days of the monolithic ski stations of the French Alps are numbered in terms of their architecture and they need to go back to the drawing board with chalet developments, outside spaces, no tower blocks and no indoor dreary malls with apartment blocks above them linked by lifts where the entrances to the blocks are dark and unwelcoming at the best of times.

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My wife was telling me of visiting a new restaurant in Arc 1800 last week. She cannot tell me its name because the sign was not even up, but the 3 course meal with wine was 20 euros. Her comment was where can I get a meal that good and that cheep in the UK? I have had fantastic eveninings in the Arpette at Les Arcs for IIRC about 30 euro for a starter a piraide a pudding and including a fair bit of wine.

Oddly I haven't noticed much difference in price between France and Austria UNLESS you want to drink large quantities of beer, where the bigger servings in Austria have a clear advantage.

Anyway back to the report from La Plagne

I note that

"All French stations are affected by the economic crisis. La Plagne with 70% of French customers is a little more impacted than others who take advantage of a larger foreign customers." Other resorts in France such as Val d'Isere have a much larger international market. Indeed one reason the British are very welcome in France is they they come even when the conditions are marginal, whereas the French cancel and stay at home.

La Plagne has had a programme just recently to improve its rental properties and to maximise the habitation of these properties. They are rightly concerned about the low occupancy rates of many properties. Persoanlly I cannot see how this can change with new buildings going up every year, a limit to the resort's skiing capacity and non removal of older property.

For large parts of the season (New Year and the half term month) the pistes are running at maximum capacity without adding new pistes simply improving the lift capacity will do nothing to increase the feel good factor of the resort.

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It's good to see France finally reacting to the competition and not just sitting back and assuming people will come to France to ski!

These days I tend to ski 1 week in Morzine, France and 1 week in Ischgl, Austria and I've seen chairs replaced in Ischgl where the old chair was better than many in Morzine to start with! Basically everything's new, fast, has covers and increasingly heated seats - something I can't help thinking about while getting a face full of wind-blown snow in the face on some of the older, slower lifts in Morzine.

Regarding apres in France there does seem to be a lot more self catering in France vs Austra and Switzerland, which seems to have more hotels/B&Bs and that does have a major impact. In Ischgl, which admittidly is a big apres resort most people come off the slopes knowing they have a few hours before their hotel evening meal/the restaurants open so hit the bars for a bit then head back out after, as it's that, the hotel bar, or bed.

The constructed French resorts are even worse though don't tend to have much soul to them and can be a little "ski resort Lego", with a kit consisting of 1x pub bar, 1x 10 pin bowling alley, 1x wine bar, 7x restaurants (all equally disapointing), plus as many apartment blocks as you can get in. Thankfully there's a little more life to real villages like Morzine.

Wow! That's a hell of a plan and lots of interesting stuff. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

I've skied La Plagne a lot and some of the problems highlighted in that report I recognise. Access to the glacier was a big one last time I was there. I was nodding at "The chairlift Bijolin dismantled, will be relocated to create a 6-seater chairlift of Inversens, the rise time (16 minutes) despairs number of skiers while the sector is gorgeous and very pleasant to ski."

Thanks for posting @boredsurfin,

You know it makes sense.

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@boredsurfin, Thanks for the link, very interesting.

A snowHead

A snowHead

My biggest (only?) problem with French ski resorts is the total lack of accommodation for singles. Apres - yeah, whatever. A roof over my head is essential, and very expensive in France generally - to the extent that I don't really bother looking. Accommodation is just too difficult to find. DIY is usually not an option either - gets expensive when no-one to share costs. Rant over.

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Mmmmm. Perhaps a story of complacency on behalf of all those in charge. A lot of French ski resorts have a triad of major players, the Lift Company, the Mairie (especially the Mayor) and the Resort Development Company. The 3 need to work in harmony and to look forward and invest. The Mayor becomes a key player here, in ensuring the lift company continue to develop. CdA only own the licence to operate the lifts, they can be removed by the commune so the commune can hold their feet to the fire. If La P has been seen as a cash cow then they only have themselves to blame.

Here in Tignes(the only place where I have detailed knowledge of) a lot of the problems were identified years ago and solutions have been put in place. This was initiated by a very forward looking mayor who did a great job (acknowledging that he was found guilty of some planning misdemeanours). He saw Tignes as one big international business and developed it as such. We have had a large building programme over the last dozen or so years - all at 4 star level including both apartments (MGM) and hotels. Individual owners have been encouraged to upgrade by joining the proprietors scheme where we are given advantages corresponding to the quality of the apt. Loans were also made available to upgrade (with a number of conditions). The Commune also initiated the building of the Lagon (gym, pool and wellness) and the new Tignesespace - multi use facility which in its second year is attracting a number of conferences.

On the pistes the parks have been developed and on average we have had one new high speed lift a year. Internationally, the marketing team have been very active,, to the point where last season foreigners formed more than half the visitors to Tignes (mostly Brits and Dutch). All the parties have been encouraged to make sure their staff welcome foreigners, STGM pay a bonus for each foreign language spoken for instance. The series of concerts and events such as the X Games have placed Tignes in the public eye and of course its position as one of the highest resorts in Europe helps.

As a result Tignes seems to be doing well compared with its neighbours, last year visitor numbers were up, by (only) 0.2% but when compared with drops of 0.5% in Val T, 1.6% in Val D, 3% in Les Arcs and 4% in La P something is obviously going well.

As for €8 beers - yes they do exist in Tignes - but you don't have to look far to find them for 5 or 5.5, apres is a personal choice but we have a selection of bars with different vibes and some very good restaurants where prices are much more favourable than London.

And finally, we will never get rid or our hideous tower blocks (or the most hideous church in the World) but don't forget it was such buildings that allowed many of us to discover a love for skiing at reasonable cost, not all of us were born with Daddy's credit card in our mouths.

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@johnE, you've obviously never had a Guiness in Belle Pintes, Arc 1950... wink

Good to see a plan though. Thanks @boredsurfin, now what I need is the equivalent in Les Arcs...

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Ski Resort 10 year forward plan

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