 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, until last EoSB, I couldn't sideslip either 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Did you ask them why/who taught them Charlotte?
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easiski,
Never had lessons - apart from a dry slope starter and a carve thingey-and I picked up those two things pretty early. What are these people, blind..??
Traversing and sideslipping are fundemental.... I just don't get how people can miss them...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, I was discussing this with my tutor on my Dave Murray Camp (Brett Eyben, for the locals) - prior to teaching in Whistler, he ran the ski school at a small hil called Manning Park in B.C. He reckons the problem is that sideslipping is not seen as adding value to theprocess of getting pupils to ski parallel therefore is not prioritised as highly. Personally (and I think he agreed with me) I consider sideslipping a fundamental in my skiing arsenal (along with my newly acquired bracquage skills  )
Michelle, How well I (and Mrs NBT) remember!
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gregh, Yes - but that might cause problems for the site if I repeated it - more than one are highly respected and touted here! None of these people were beginners - they'd just never been shown how to edge the ski to hold them on the traverse (and in one case never been told to keep the weight on the downhill ski). Sideslipping we've already discussed at length of course, but traversing is the basis for edge control - i usually deal with it for the first time on day 2 of a beginners group. Sideslipping is another form of edge control. nbt, I can't see any big deal in skiing parallel nowadays - more peeps can do it between 6 and 10 days on gentle slopes. Interesting comment though. What do the poop peeps do when their friends take them to the edge of a (perceived) precipice????
Keep the comments coming - off to bed now!!!
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easiski, at the edge of a precipice I'd want to be able to traverse in reverse 
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easiski,
Exactly, thats why you pick it up very quickly... And traversing deals with steepness or rather in the early stages, mogul fileds, when you couldn't bomb it. You can tell how I learnt..!
I can think a of a few routes that have had very hairy traverses past rocks...... I just can't see how anyone could teach and not mention it. Its worries me that these people have come quite a way without it. The only saving grace being that they haven't had to use it in earnest..!!
I always make sure that people are rock solid on traverses and sideslipping..as they go hand in hand on certain terrain IMV..and I'm no teacher or guide.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, incroyable.
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easiski, maybe you two plonkers should learn to board first since side-slipping and traversing is what you're forever complaining it's all that boarders do 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Who are you calling a plonker? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Masque,
Why would we do that...? boarding is such a poor way around the mountain and most traverses would be walks. I used to ski with a couple of good boarders, could go down anything but we would still be waiting all day, either for them to get into the route or walk out of it. They gave up boarding for that reason in the end.
Great way down....but.. 
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JT, ummm ... It could be said that the more exertion and time put into the ride, the better the result ... as you said a "Great way down"
just ask the ladeez . . .
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You know it makes sense.
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I had these skills reinforced in recent classes with Snoworks. Traversing was taught throught edge bite/release while skiing on very hardpacked snow and glacier ice. Sideslipping was taught on on some steep, cut-up terrain - it wasn't just a case of releasing the edges to slide sideways, but actively forcing and scraping your skis in order to overcome the lumpy snow you were trying to slide down. I've had other classes where these skills were covered (although not in such tricky conditions), but only when in British skis schools; not on the few occaisons I tried ESF or Austrian instruction.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I use a hell of a lot of terrain when I teach.
In order to get to the choice spots, this involves traversing to get to the untracked snow, the trees that I want to teach in etc. At the start of the traverse I always stop my clients and introduce the finer points of traversing - as this might well take 10 mins to circle the top of a huge bowl to get where we want to go!
wrt sideslipping - again, in using a lot of varied terrain in my teaching, lots of negotiating between boulders, trees etc., side slipping down, forwards and backwards is called for.
So yes. I do devote time in teaching these skills. All part of a skiers essential toolkit.
I also cover it off at an advanced level, through high speed turns, explaining the Bode Miller "Drift & Lock" tactics.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
only when in British skis schools; not on the few occaisons I tried ESF or Austrian instruction
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that's not my experience. My first on-snow lessons were in Austria (about 18 years ago) and I can still see, in my mind's eye, that exaggerated Austrian traverse position which was drummed into us and which I clung to, like a drowning man, as it seemed such a bomb-proof way of getting around. Side-slipping too. Both strongly reinforced with BASS subsequently. But not in more recent lessons (except with easiski, traversing on the uphill ski!). I like the idea of taking these skills up a level in more difficult terrain, as described by rob@rar.org.uk. Have seen the side-slip on Phil Smith's video, too, and tried it out successfully though not on the precipices featured in the video. I don't understand how anyone ends up without these basics, if they have had a range of lessons. Maybe they have been taught them, but have forgotten?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I learnt with ESF, I used to get fed up of side-slipping exercises, and certainly learnt to traverse. I couldn't have managed without either.
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Like JT I'm self taught and sideslipping and traversing are two of the first things I learnt. You'd have a bit of dificulty ( or a long walk) skiing the Ciste Gulley at the moment if you couldn't traverse. With no link poma or WW chair you have to traverse out of the Gulley along a fairly steep slope of what I guess is the end of the West Wall. When the gulley first opened a few weekends agothe traverse was very hard and wind sculpted and required good edge control.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| easiski wrote: |
| What do our US counterparts think? |
It is something I come across in US lessons, but I've also been in groups where students have never done it before. It is definitely taught at advanced levels, and used by bootfitters, but I don't know about beginner levels.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| I also cover it off at an advanced level, through high speed turns, explaining the Bode Miller "Drift & Lock" tactics. |
"Drift & Lock"?
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I'm guessing it means that during a turn you don;t hold the edge - you allow the skis to drift (sideslipping) unti you;re in the right line, then "lock" the skis into that line
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rob@rar.org.uk, that sounds like a skid followed by engaging the edges. (but I may be wrong)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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nbt and Wear The Fox Hat, thanks, that sounds about right. I think most of my turns are drift and lock, but the 'drift' phase is largely unintentional because I'm not so good at getting a good 'lock' with my edges!
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easiski, I learnt in Austria, allbeit with an Aussie instructor but we also spent a lot of time on sideslipping and traversing and it is definately something i spend time on when i am teaching. Edge control is fundamental to everything we do on skis so I personally cannot understand why so many people have never covered it in their lessons.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar.org.uk, ah, you need early edge engagement. (sometimes called High C turns) - get both skis on edge when you are still in the traverse.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, Who are these people we should avoid? It seems ridiculous ..
As a relative beginner who has done several weeks of lessons with the same person ( an ESI school) , I still get traversing/side-slipping routines thrown in regularly ( ie every day!) . It's just that they are now on much steeper terrain ( and usually involve forwards and backwards). I'm still also asked to do stepping turns (albeit on steeper slopes ) and I'm still rubbish at them 
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eEvans, if you are rubbish at sideslipping, I would ask... have you had your boots/bindings aligned properly?
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You know it makes sense.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Rubbish at 'stepping turns'... you know that step up the hill with your higher foot and then the lower one etc ..... without actually using the edge to carve any bit of the turn , I don't think that's alignment etc.
Think it's both one and two star stuff , but the beggar still has me doing it on steeper reds ( cos I'm crap at it !!)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| nbt and Wear The Fox Hat, thanks, that sounds about right. I think most of my turns are drift and lock, but the 'drift' phase is largely unintentional because I'm not so good at getting a good 'lock' with my edges! |
That sounds a bit like how I understand Harold Harb's 'release' phase???
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Poster: A snowHead
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agavin, not quite, from my understanding, HH teaches that there should be no skidding involved, the turn should be purely carved.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, my understanding from HH (And I am not a disciple of his!!! ... but do have one of his books) is that the 'release' is achieved by flattening the the skis and allowing the tips to slide slightly downhill - this is immediately before tipping the ski/invoking the 'phantom move'. In fact he prescribes exercises of traversing, and then flattening the skis with the weight at the front allowing the tips to turn downhill to practise the 'release'.
I agree he talks no end about 'not skidding' and derived anybody who isn't on thier edges 100% of the time. But frankly as you transition from one edge to the other using his method your skis - and assuming the tips start to rotate downhill slightly at the point of release - are going to skid flat for 'a period of time' (depending on how aggressively you do it and the steepness of the terrain)?
Of course I may have it totally wrong, but certainly his explanations helped me learn to carve in my 2nd week of skiing more so than the instructors. Not that that is the way I think of carving a turn anymore!
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agavin, yes, that sounds about right for him - you daren't call it skidding, because he doesn't teach that, even if it is what you do!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| nbt wrote: |
| He reckons the problem is that sideslipping is not seen as adding value to theprocess of getting pupils to ski parallel therefore is not prioritised as highly. |
Bit surprised at that, as my first proper teacher taught it as a variation of the traverse, and used it (traversing) specifically as preparation for a parallel turn. I would agree with easiski that this is something that should be taught just about as soon as the pupil knows which was to put on their skis (day 2 sounds fine, certainly no later ). The teacher I mentioned (albeit a self-confessed maverick) would first teach traversing, then turning up the hill to stop, then sideslipping, then a parallel turn (albeit old-school). BTW he never taught snowplough (reckoning that skiers would pick that up for themselves anyway) - but we've done that to death here before.
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| nbt wrote: |
| easiski the problem is that sideslipping is not seen as adding value to theprocess of getting pupils to ski parallel therefore is not prioritised as highly. |
Probably not, but it doesn't half add value to getting out of slightly scaly situations (as well as moving in lift queues which head uphill).
What about traversing? The skis are pretty parallel then.
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It depends on who's setting the priority here - I problaby didn;t explain clearly enough, the priority is to make the skiiers happy. the skiiers want to ski parallel, therefore anything not seen as helping them ski parallel is useless. I personally , as I've said, couldn;t do without it and was very surprised to find out it's no longer one of the basics
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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re Bode's "Drift & Lock"
quote from old post:
| Quote: |
Even in rallying - where it looks like they spend their time going sideways - actually the fastest and therefore most efficient method is to minimise the amount of time they spend going sideways as this scrubs their speed off - and what they are actually doing is searching for maximum grip around the course, picking the racing line.
When they do deliberately drift the car around sideways this is for the exit line around the obstacle, and to carry the momentum through - and there is an equivalent manouvre in skiing - it's called Bode's "Drift and Lock" or "Stivot" or "Pitching" or whatever. He will drift the skis around the gate at high speed, then engage the edges and control the ensuing high pressure to jet him off into the new direction. |
and from Epic:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=33741
But don't try this at home unless you have tree trunks for legs, and have supreme pressure control skills! Only to be used where line and speed rule over form.
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| veeeight wrote: |
re Bode's "Drift & Lock"
...Only to be used where line and speed rule over form. |
what? you mean always?
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FAQ
actually) who can ski OK, but has NEVER been taught to either sideslip or even worse
this is truly dreadful (particularly as edge control is so much more important on the carving ski than previously). Can anyone shed any light on this phenomenon? Alternatively, were any others never taught traversing? What do our US counterparts think?
My only excuse is the friend in question is always behind me and I never noticed before they couldn't do it 
