 Poster: A snowHead
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This is for Multi Trip Annual policies.
The last 3 years I've insured me, wife and two kids with Snowcard under the Max Adventure category with NO baggage, sports equip, camera equip or holiday cancellation cover and with an excess of £100. I am interested in the medical, legal and personal liability stuff. I am happy to self insure the rest. Last year it was £190, this years quote is £205 (increase of approx 8%). I have a deal of confidence in Snowcard paying out efficiently for off piste, one of the big reasons for using them . Max Adventure covers lift served freeride, back country touring, heli & snowcat skiing.
I've been looking at MPI which have been touted on the boards and from what I've read will be equally efficient at paying out and covering off piste. MPI have 3 levels of cover - Economy, Standard and Excel. As you can imagine at each level some amounts paid out/covered increase, excess drops and the premium is higher. However in respect of the above and my personal needs these are the important bits:
Snowcard Medical expenses, inc. rescue & repatriation is £10m whereas MPI Economy is £1m and the Standard and Excel £5m. So question is what are the chances of exceeding £1m or £5m on a weeks family skiing in France - even accounting for off piste activities? MPI excess is £135, £95 and £75 respectively.
Snowcard Physiotherapy/dental is £500, MPI £0, £300 (£95 excess) and £600 (£75 excess) respectively. TBH I can probably self insure this part so no big issue.
Snowcard Personal accident up to £25k, MPI is £5k, £20k and £30k (no excess) respectively. Again the question what are the chances of exceeding £5k/£20k?
Snowcard Personal liability is £2m whereas MPI is £5m (£275 excess) across all 3 levels.
Snowcard Legal is £25k, MPI is £0, £25k and £50k respectively. This is in order to pursue a claim for injury or death against one our party. Clearly the MPI Economy policy gives you zip which is probably not a good idea?
The rest is fluff I am not interested in.
If I take away the cancellation, personal effects and money cover from the MPI quote (seems I can't remove sports equip and piste closure cover) I get the following quotes:
Economy: £79.80
Standard: £90.53
Excel: £120.72
Even at the Excel level MPI seems to win hands down on policy cost.
So matching up Snowcard against Excel cover) I see are:
Medical expenses, inc. rescue & repatriation Snowcard is £10m, MPI is £5m
Physio is £500 versus £600
Personal Accident Snowcard is 25k and MPI £30K
Personal Liability Snowcard is £2m, MPI is £5m
Legal Snowcard is £25k and MPI is £50k
So MPI score on every category aside from Medical expenses, inc. rescue & repatriation. How critical is that £10m versus £5m?
Seems to me MPI is the way to go here. Am I missing something folks?
Comments, criticisms, validations, come on down, let's have them please...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Layne,
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Medical expenses, inc. rescue & repatriation. How critical is that £10m versus £5m?
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Might be interesting to ask the two insurance companies that question. An efficient answer from one or other might help you make up your mind.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Would have thought in Europe little practical difference. In the US for severe life threatening issues over a longer term maybe.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I think in Europe even in Switzerland £5M is likely to be more than sufficiant even if you need an air ambulance complete with staff to take you home after a severe crash.
If you were in the USA I would suggest going for the Maximum, however I'd also suggest going for the maximum of Liability in the US
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Layne, How do they compare on definition of off piste and what is expected of you? (with guide, not on your own, only when avi warning is 1 etc)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@boredsurfin, they both cover without a guide and make a reasonable judgement based on you observing local advice. In other words if you choose to ignore the advice of the lifties then they may not pay out. I understand it's difficult for them to be explicit but I don't believe either of them will try and weasle out of a claim for spurious reasons. I feel they are both open about what they cover. I can never trust insurance companies 100% but on all information known to me I think these two will cover the sort of skiing we do. Unless of course anyone can tell me different.
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| Max Adventure covers lift served freeride, back country touring |
Where does one begin and the other end? If I take a lift up, but climb for 20 minutes up the slope that's above the exit, or perhaps along a ridge next to the exit, and then I ride down to the road that's a 10-minute walk back to lift entrance, would I be covered? What if I do it carrying my snowboard instead of using cross-country ski gear?
In Spain (which is what I know), the best policies in that respect are run by the mountaneering and winter sports federations, where if "out-of-resort" skiing is covered, it's covered in a blanket way without reference to boundaries, guides or meaningless names of sports; typically it's simply limited to "activities below 4000m", or 7000m for Europe-/World-wide policies. The cover is pants though, for pretty much everything... these policies exist purely and simply to get you off the mountain into a hospital (with a modest cover for Personal Liability thrown in). Sadly, in Spain, policies with more holiday-oriented cover or better pay-outs always limit off-piste to either "in resort", "lift-served" or none at all.
Perhaps that blanket idea is what those two policies you mention cover as well. But then I always wonder why they muddy the waters by citing things that sound highly specific like "touring"!
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 10-12-14 16:45; edited 5 times in total
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Note there was a previous thread about these two http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2598517 contained within there is a piece from MPI about their view on off piste skiing and when they may question paying out.
I've sent an email to Snowcard asking why their premium is so high in comparison to Snowcard and to MPI about why their limit is £5m. At the moment I am veering onto the MPI side.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| Where does one begin and the other end? If I take a lift up, but climb for 20 minutes up the slope that's above the exit, or perhaps along a ridge next to the exit, and then I ride down to the road that's a 10-minute walk back to lift entrance, would I be covered? What if I do it carrying my snowboard instead of using cross-country ski gear? |
You would be covered for all that.
Pertinent definitions from Snowcard:
Lift Served Freeride: is for skiers or boarders accessing runs that do not form part of a resorts marked pistes away from the crowds. Runs are accessible via lifts but may entail a short hike or walk to access the start of the run. An example may be the Vallee Blanche in Chamonix.
Back Country Touring: covers remote ski touring using skins, often taking in overnight stays in mountain huts or travelling between resorts.
Covered by the next level up:
Ski Mountaineering: is the combination of alpine mountaineering taking in ascents of peaks with skiing and ski touring. The higher rated policies automatically cover the lesser rated styles of skiing or boarding.
The latter is for up to 6500m
Not sure what MPIs policy on ski touring is. Maybe I will ask although I don't expert to be doing any this season.
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Reply from Snowcard:
"Thank you for your enquiry .
Premiums are based on Claims Performance in previous years and different Insurers have different Claims Experiences from Year to Year and therefore rates fluctuate accordingly across the market.
Of course we would be pleased to insure you again this year , however should you decide to test the market , we would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your custom in the past."
So basically, it is what it is, suck it up or go elsewhere. Which in a way is fair enough. Although I thought they might either a) sell their policy a bit more or b) offer a reduced premium.
Looking ever more likely I will be "testing the market" with MPI.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Layne wrote: |
| @boredsurfin, they both cover without a guide and make a reasonable judgement based on you observing local advice. In other words if you choose to ignore the advice of the lifties then they may not pay out. I understand it's difficult for them to be explicit but I don't believe either of them will try and weasle out of a claim for spurious reasons...... |
It's a couple of years since I skied off piste, but when I did, I didn't like the then wording of Snowcard. What does 'against local advice' mean? Resort advice is posted as an Avalanche Risk. Almost invariably, if there is good powder around, the posted Avalanche Risk is 2 or above. Risk Level 2 means the risk is moderate; Level 3 means the risk is considerable. Whilst I understand that, at Level 3, specifically at risk slopes may be declared, I don't recall seeing that done in reality.
So the question is, how are you going to get information that you can prove you had relating to slopes that you may ski on? If you are with a mountain guide or appropriately qualified ski instructor, then I don't see a problem. But if you are skiing with a group of friends, even if at least one has sufficient knowledge and experience to make sensible choices of slope, whom do you think would give you the advice on slopes when the resort was, say, at Level 3? And, in practice, would you really take time seeking the advice if you had real confidence in yourself or the more expert skiers in your group?
Personally, I took out BMC membership and insurance, since I felt that the wording on the policy was sufficiently comprehensive for my needs. It cost more than most, but it gave me peace of mind.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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As an addendum: Last year I was pondering moving but one of the problems I had was that my annual policy with Snowcard ran out halfway through our Christmas ski trip. Snowcard wouldn't pay out for the first half of the trip unless the annual policy was renewed. I quote "Thank you for your email, with our insurance you need to be covered for the full trip on one policy." So the choice was either to effectively forego a few days of cover and "pay double" either with someone else or buying a single trip with Snowcard or to renew. It's a similar situation this year. So what I am going to do is to get out of the cycle and get a single trip policy with MPI for the whole of this individual ski trip. And then buy an annual policy at a strategic date that means I won't fall foul of the problem again. Early-March seems favourite.
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@achilles, I think Snowcards policy is actually similar to MPIs. If you've explicitely ignore the advice either posted or verbally given and/or negligently put yourself in danger they may reject the claim. In reality I suspect this rarely, if ever, happens. I think any company that allows off piste without a guide are generally aware of what they are letting themselves in for. Just my view.
When I do a quote from BMC it comes out at £450+. For me, basically silly money.
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You know it makes sense.
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@Layne, I wouldn't be too sure about that, I know people have mentioned that just the presence of the wrong colour avalanche flag flying in resort could be a reason for a claim to be refused. I asked MPI specific questions on what was 'reasonable and sensible' with examples of a person straying off the side of the piste in poor visibility and becoming lost, or someone breaking a leg in a collision with another skier after a couple of lunchtime beers. This is HAT's advice on the subject of off-piste cover, they also asked insurers questions. http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/sites/default/files/Insurance.pdf
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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When you talk to a company about a ski policy, you're not talking to the people who will judge your claim against the policy conditions. When you make a claim, you'll be dealing with a completely different group of people, and perhaps even a separate/outsourced company - the Claims Handlers. If you're lucky, this is in-house and there's good communication between Claims and the retail/customer support team. But if it's like, say, the AA, then you're sold a policy by one company and a claim is processed by an absolutely separate Claims company, with the latter targeted on minimising payouts. Claims Handlers aren't going to be allowed to spend time doing pre-sales advice to customers, so it's hard to trust any advice that you're given, unfortunately.
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Poster: A snowHead
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This makes for fascinating reading:
http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/statement-snowcard
Notably it says
We have been insuring skiers for 20 years and we have never not had a claim paid for an off piste skier for disregarding safety advice.
But it doesn't say anything about refusals on other grounds. See below in regard of being "reckless"
It sets out the dilemma for insurance companies:
I do not make the following statement lightly – insuring a lot of off piste skiers and boarders is extremely difficult to get right and it is the responsibility of those taking part in the sport that they act responsibly if they want insurers to continue providing cover. 9 out of 10 insurers insist that all off piste activity is in the company of a guide. We do not have such a restriction so for those who do not want to be restricted, they must appreciate that having cover brings with it responsibilities to act reasonably. The test of what is reasonable is dependent on the situation at the time. It is a condition of all insurance that you act as if you are uninsured. This fundamental principal applies to your home, motor and life insurance as well.
It poses the question of what is reckless:
So – what is reckless behaviour? What about these examples, make up your own mind which are reckless
Two 21 year old boarders with 2 years experience go backcountry boarding in a level 4 warning without safety equipment?
A seasoned instructor with 30 years experience skiing solo in a level 5?
Following a young tour rep leading a group of intermediate skiers off piste in a white out where warnings are at 3 and you are a weak skier?
Drinking a bottle of tequila and heading off down steep couloirs in a level 2?
A group of 4 seasoned skiers with full safety equipment, having registered their planned route with the piste authorities setting of in a level 4?
A professionally guided group heading off to learn avalanche techniques in a level 3?
A group of strong intermediate skiers heading off in a level 4 warning where one has a transceiver but the others don’t?
Which are reckless and which are not?
When I first looked at that list I thought it was quite easy. But for example no. 1 & 2 for me, I'd like to know more about what and where they were skiing. I've skied off piste without safety equipment and solo. Sure it wasn't "back country", more lift served off piste sections. Nor was it level 5. But still. I assessed the risks and felt it was safe. You can take suffer an injury or take a fall at any point regardless of on/off piste, etc. What if you are skiing in a group and one person becomes detached or goes the wrong way. It happens. So anyway, I think all it's all good stuff to read up on and I feel more confident with the likes of Snowcard and MPI than the mainstream insurers.
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FAQ
