 Poster: A snowHead
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The same group who were involved with arresting several British Instructors this last year, who have instigated legal proceedings agains the SCGB and tour operators for leading groups on piste and who have actively delayed implementation of working rights of British ski instructors within Europe will be at the Ski Show and have been doing promotion in London this week
If you are going to the Ski Show please stop anyone wearing a Red ESF uniform and ask them to explain why they deserve your business when you on Holiday in France
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Being cheaper than their competitors would probably do it. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yeah and ask them why they are cheaper, because many of their schools are "Training Centres" and trainee instructors punt up a portion of their earnings to the senior instructors are offered much lower wages. To qualify to become a Training Centre you have to have 10 Fully FRENCH Qualified instructors, those with full equivalence trained in other EU systems do not count so therefore no Foreigners can realistically open a Trainer Centre ski school.
Ask a Red jacket if your kids will be taught by a fully qualified instructor or a trainee and also ask how many kids per instructor.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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That's not QUITE fair.. your kids could be getting taught by a BASI level 1 or 2, but that would be, at best, a trainee in an ESF school. I often see groups of up to 10 with a BASI1 in the UK, how is that better?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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feef, why are there no British Ski Schools allowed to hire non L4's in France? I have no problem with lower level instructors (being one of them) but my comment was in relation to the ESF being cheaper. There are reasons they are cheaper than Brit schools, large class size and trainees taking the courses is the key reason.
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Fair point on pricing, but your wording suggested that being taught by a trainee was somehow lesser than if they were being taught in a non-french system.
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Feef, Not my intention, If Non French ISTD's could have trainees/lower level instructors I would have no problem but once again the ESF trade union are flouting EU law.
To other SH's Perhaps also ask the ESF what they charge to guide you around the piste on the first day of your holiday like Le Ski, Mark Warner etc used to do as part of your holiday...
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Esf classes can be very big in holiday weeks but unlike some schools they don't, I think, cancel a class because too few people have signed up in quiet weeks,or insist on shorter hours. I had a week XC course with two other people and my OH had an ESI course (same price as ESF) with one other, falling to nobody else one nasty day when he and the instructor,who we know, retired to a bar. They are also much cheaper for private lessons with qualified instructors than some of the British schools.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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^ … and more expensive than other British schools.
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pam w, again they can afford to be because they have a lot of "trainees" who are on lower wages subsidising the Full cert guys, yet Brits get arrested if they try doing the same thing...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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here we go again..
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
and more expensive than other British schools
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not many, I wager. How many British schools will do you a three hour private lesson for up to 5 people for €122? (as will ESF Val d'Isere). I don't defend the French protectionist attitude at all, but I've seen no evidence to back up the assertions that French ski instructors are paid more than all the rest.
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You know it makes sense.
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Thank you for providing the Cambridge Business English Dictionary definition of knocking copy.
"Knock knock"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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"Who's there?"
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Poster: A snowHead
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"Knocking"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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"Knocking who?"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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"No, not Knocking who ... Knocking what?" etc. etc.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Isn't that a bit like asking any Spey valley or Carlisle instructor why they deserve your money if you ski at cairngorm or yad moss? And get annoyed if they have the audacity to object to a Cornish instructor teaching Cornish folk bussed in by a Cornish tour operator. Just sayin...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
and more expensive than other British schools
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not many, I wager. How many British schools will do you a three hour private lesson for up to 5 people for €122? (as will ESF Val d'Isere). I don't defend the French protectionist attitude at all, but I've seen no evidence to back up the assertions that French ski instructors are paid more than all the rest. |
That's not really skimottarets point though. The French schools are able to charge less, as they are able to employ trainees, who are paid less. Brit schools aren't allowed to employ trainees - purely 'cos they aren't French - which means they can only employ full ISTD instructors, who obviously need to be paid more than trainee/lower level instructors, so HAVE to charge more.
Yes yes, French schools too must have 10 fully qualified french instructors to get training centre status, but if a Brit school wants to do that and still be a 'Brit school' (I admit I don't really see why this is neccessary or attractive given how many 'foreigners' speak excellent English) then presumably they also need at least the same amount of Brit instructors too = a damn big wage bill and a lot of work to find...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Clarkly999, correct but you missed out that a "training centre" in France must have 10 ISTD's who qualified in the French system, Italian ISTD, German, British, Austrian etc doesn't count. Is that legal in the EU to discriminate against the accepted qualifications of another member state.
Although the qualification is completely equivalent Foreign owned locally established businesses cannot compete as they cannot hire trainees. They have an unfair and illegal competitive advantage which is being tested in the courts. Funny enough the local French court sided with the locals and the case will go further, most likely to EU level. They are disregarding EU law and now after initiating the arrest of the only Brit ski school in Megeve have a virtual monopoly.
Yet the same group comes to the London Ski show with open arms looking for custom. My point with this thread is to inform so people can make their own choice.
This thread goes into a bit more detail http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=93395
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 17-10-14 10:17; edited 1 time in total
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IME, skimottaret's point is, as a commercial outfit, to overcome competition from another commercial outfit - and get snowheads to do help him do it.
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achilles, No my point is that the French trade union is flouting EU law, is protectionist and attempting to retain a monopoly position by unfairly undercutting other businesses through restrictive trade practice and that 90% of British instructors who are licensed and should be able to work within the EU are currently being arrested for plying their trade in competition to the locals. The same union then initiates the arrest of "ski hosts" and SCGB leaders while cynically sending red coated smiling instructors to ply for trade after using such bully boy tactics. They are free to do so but if the lesson buying public understands the situation better they may think twice before booking with the ESF. Spirit of fair play and all that dear boy 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, your commercial considerations are your affair, not ours.
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Not my commercial consideration but the several thousand British trained instructors that are unable to work within the EU after becoming qualified to do so. Do you not take on board any of my points above?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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achilles,
skimottaret's commercial considerations are absolutely germane to me (as a buyer, not a seller, in that market) and I'd have thought at least of passing interest to most of this community. At least as much, say, as the ordering of imaginary drinks in an imaginary bar. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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skimottaret, nope. laundryman, Must admit I don't understand the popularity of the bar thread - I can do dysfunctional. As for the ESF matter, I'd be more impressed if a snowHead without relevant commercial interests invited me to lobby the ESF, rather than someone who stands to gain if the ESF are undermined.
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achilles, I can somewhat understand you cynicism but if another  unconnected to the ski industry, say Laundryman, made the same points as I did would you view it differently ?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
That's not really skimottarets point though
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yes, I realise that - I was responding to laundryman who implied that some British ski schools offer cheaper lessons than ESF. The only ones I've come across (e.g. BASS, Evo 2) charge a lot. That's not to say they don't provide good value, or that all ESF lessons are good - they're not. I had a rubbish private lesson in powder with an ESF instructor whose main objective appeared to be to demonstrate his exquisite grasp of English and his hot-shot ski ability rather than try to improve mine. And I've seen ludicrously big groups of ESF kids. But there are plenty of people who have had good lessons with ESF or other French schools - two teenage sisters I booked onto a beginners course, the winter before last, with our local ESI (at about €80 for the 5 session IIRC) had a stupendous week with an excellent (and top qualified) instructor. There was only one other member of the group and she was fairly pathetic and dropped out after the first session. His English isn't brilliant (he always talks French to me, with suits me as I get a French lesson thrown in free) but he's a great guy and super-friendly. The lessons I've had with Inside Out Skiing have been better, though, in part because of language.
The French "keep them out" attitude isn't good at all, but it's echoed in other places in the Alps (notably the Arlberg and I believe Italy has its moments too) which don't come in for so much stick and wholesale rubbishing of French establishments is not, in my view, the best response.
And it remains the case that there are probably more successful British ski schools in France than in all the other alpine countries put together.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arlberg ski school has heaps of non Austrian instructors - German, Scandis, Dutch, Bulgarians I've all come across which suggests to me that though the right to run a ski school may be restricted, there isn't much of a keep em out attitude.
I retain a personal suspicion that what you get from your 3 hour private ESF in VDI isn't so different from what you'd have got for free from your Mark Warner "host", unless you know enough to ask for someone by name and know how to ask for what you want out of the lesson.
I've not really got a problem with ESF Megeve coming to an industry beano and touting a bit. Yes it shows a fair amount of chutzpah and it's quite amusing/irritating depending on where you sit on the whole SBS/BASI-French stitch up but it might also be a sign that it is beginning to dawn on them that they need to get closer to what (British) customers want than the old model.
Personally I think ESF Megeve would have been better standing behind Simon Butler so that even when he was run out of town they could have retained goodwill of Brit clientele, but it's not like anyone who isnlt a ski nerd will care. SBS are still there and recruiting for L4s anyway.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I think you shouldn't generalise, as it clearly varies between resorts. In Plan Peisey the ESF only teach groups of 8 since last winter. The children are regularly taken by one of the most experienced & nicest instructors (Fred!). If you see bigger groups than 8 with ESF, they will have come from Club Med, & that is a Club Med thing. They also seem to have an excellent relationship with New Gen locally.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| achilles, No my point is that the French trade union is flouting EU law, is protectionist and attempting to retain a monopoly position by unfairly undercutting other businesses through restrictive trade practice and that 90% of British instructors who are licensed and should be able to work within the EU are currently being arrested for plying their trade in competition to the locals. The same union then initiates the arrest of "ski hosts" and SCGB leaders while cynically sending red coated smiling instructors to ply for trade after using such bully boy tactics. They are free to do so but if the lesson buying public understands the situation better they may think twice before booking with the ESF. Spirit of fair play and all that dear boy |
Was Austria not ordered by the EU to relax it's protectionist laws regarding who could run a ski school earlier this year? Seems it's not isolated to France, although the sentiment on SH suggests that only France does it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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feef, Yes they were are I believe fined as well.. But they aren't at the Ski Show
Genepi I don't mean to over generalise and have no problem with the ESF instructors in the main but rather the Trade Union that represents them who engage in all the tactics I explained. My daughter went through ESF locally and enjoyed her time but there was a choice in Meribel as opposed to Megeve where the locals have run out the Brit ski school.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
Clarkly999, correct but you missed out that a "training centre" in France must have 10 ISTD's who qualified in the French system, Italian ISTD, German, British, Austrian etc doesn't count.
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They are training for the ENSA exams so that would make some sense. However the same law should apply for people entering the BASI or other system.
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| the case will go further, most likely to EU level. They are disregarding EU law |
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You can introduce EU points of law at any point in the court process, even at the lowest French courts. Have you checked the court transcripts of the case you refer to to see what the judges' opinions were?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, No not had a look as French law is not my specialist subject but it would be good to get your expert opinion on the matter. I am less concerned with SB challenging and potentially setting case law in a few years and more interested in getting improved working rights through modification of the tests we must take and the fine details of the implementation of EC Directives via a delegated act. In the mean time he gets arrested and those that were actively involved with the court case are now over here marketing with a straight face on. Dave would call it Chutzpah but my view is that it is more devious than that. But I stray into who cares unless you are a ski instructor territory
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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How dare the ESF tout for business from British tourists visiting France.
Outrageous
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there was a choice in Meribel as opposed to Megeve where the locals have run out the Brit ski school
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BASS have a school in Megeve - which miranda reported on very positively last year, IIRC. And the SB set up only offered lessons to their chalet guests - at least that was the case when I tried to get some lessons with them a few years ago. So it wasn't really that much of a choice for the rest of us. BASS is, though I am not going to book a week's course with them at this stage in case it turns into a much smaller number of private lessons!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam Shona and Derek are actually mainly based in Cham down the road and occassionally work in Megeve..
Haggis_Trap They are of course entitled to do that, I am just giving some background so people can make an informed choice and understand some of the issues involved.
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I think the ski instructors will happily be sacrificed by everyone involved to give the French a political victory with something so symbolic. Much bigger problems would arise all over the alps if the French turned their zealous investigators on to the UK tour operators, and I don't think even the esf want that loss of potential custom.
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FAQ
