 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Can they not just pay the minimum wage and cut the benefits? Presumably local hotels also have to comply with the regulations so why not just copy what they do. Seems another desperate attempt to make a fuss about not much. Other countries seem to manage just fine. I tend to book directly with accomodation/tourist board which is easy in this day and age.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Austria doesn't have a minimum wage.
It set something in 2009 for the Eurozone and has ignored it ever since.
The 'problem' across all the ski countries is that Britain tries not to share the benefits of the tourists with the host country.
All tax is paid to another country and workers do not benefit.
In Ski Amadé the British market is in the bottom three of Europe and 'others'.
Austria certainly doesn't need to cling on to the TO led holidays offered by Britain.
(Of course speaking with my 'business driven' head on... I need to cling on to you lot of Brits to get my regular supply of cheddar and pork scratchings throughout the winter...
 )
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“We take extreme exception to the suggestion that we are wage dumping. On the salary packages that we offer, what our staff have in their pockets is considerably more than anyone on the minimum wage in the UK.”
Yes, but it is nowhere near the cost of what an Austrian chalet owner would have to pay in total cost for their employees. If an employee is receiving say 1250 net, then the real cost in Austria is probably twice that once you take into account the double payment etc. The Austrian Chalet owner would also provide a room and meals.
If a UK operator is running a chalet, they therefore have a significant competitive advantage as they are paying their staff nowhere near as much as their Austrian competition. In this instance I think it is fair that everyone is operating on a level playing field.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Austria doesn't have a minimum wage.
It set something in 2009 for the Eurozone and has ignored it ever since.
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There isn't a national minimum wage, but as I understand it most industries have some sort of union/guild that sets what workers in that industry should be paid.
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In Ski Amadé the British market is in the bottom three of Europe and 'others'.
Austria certainly doesn't need to cling on to the TO led holidays offered by Britain.
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@flangesax, I don't really know anything about it, but when I did my Anwärter course in St Anton during one of the lectures they pointed out that more Brits visit the Arlberg than any other nationality. That was in 2008 so might well have changed by now, and I guess it doesn't neccessarily mean they were booking with UK TO's rather than local hotels.
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@clarky999, I suspect that the Arlberg with St Anton is the exception though. My impression is that most resorts are not that bothered about the UK mkt as they get enough people from continental Europe booking directly without a TO taking a cut. TOs seem more a Brit thing as most continentals just seem to book accommodation directly and try to resort so no need for TO? Snowheads is understandably generally a very British perspective. Solution is just to book directly, bit more hassle but cut out TO profit and the hard working staff and local infrastructure gets a fairer cut of the cake.
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Great news, the travel operators have been ripping kids off for far too long.
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@clarky999, I got a marketing summary/results thang through from Ski Amadé last week.
In comparison to the other markets the British market is incredibly small.... but it does fill those airports every weekend!
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Strange. If I'm not mistaken (and apologies if I am), didn't Austria once hold the dubious honour of being the no1 destination for ski travelling Brits?
That may well be irrelevant for any of the alpine countries, given the overall mix of snow sport pursuing holiday-makers, but it is still a fairly significant number. Attracting that number, who tend in the main to take week long breaks, make the TO route quite popular. Given the distance we usually have to travel, having a different model might well push the costs beyond affordability for some (or many). Now that is, of course, "our" problem and not an excuse to dictate employment law outside of our jurisdiction.
To be honest, the hassle of trying to book things independently at the best time for more affordable flights and then tying up with organising sensible transfers and then negotiating a good deal with an hotel/other is often a complete arseache. Having been looking independently, fairly recently, for non-peak SC accommodation, I've been amazed at the charges some places make - more, in some cases than a TO package covering flights, transfers and half board for a week.
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Is benefit in kind included in the calculation?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Cacciatore wrote: |
| To be honest, the hassle of trying to book things independently at the best time for more affordable flights and then tying up with organising sensible transfers and then negotiating a good deal with an hotel/other is often a complete arseache. |
Is it? Don't think it's ever taken me more than a couple of hours to book flights, self-catering accommodation and transfer. Admittedly I tend to go to places I've been to before.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| googiew wrote: |
“We take extreme exception to the suggestion that we are wage dumping. On the salary packages that we offer, what our staff have in their pockets is considerably more than anyone on the minimum wage in the UK.”
Yes, but it is nowhere near the cost of what an Austrian chalet owner would have to pay in total cost for their employees. If an employee is receiving say 1250 net, then the real cost in Austria is probably twice that once you take into account the double payment etc. The Austrian Chalet owner would also provide a room and meals.
If a UK operator is running a chalet, they therefore have a significant competitive advantage as they are paying their staff nowhere near as much as their Austrian competition. In this instance I think it is fair that everyone is operating on a level playing field. |
Not all ski resort jobs in Austria provide accommodation, I worked in a guesthouse last season which did not include a room, I sorted that myself (although I suspect my employer would have helped me had I not already got something sorted). Having said that, I earned quite a lot more last season working locally than I did for the chalet companies, even once I'd paid for food, accommodation and lift pass, and was working fewer hours.
Also have to disagree with the quote of Andy Perrin's mentioned above. In my year out during uni I was earning minimum wage and had more money than when I was working as a chalet assistant once bills/food/accom etc. was taken in to account, and again working fewer hours in jobs without the potential for tips and other money earners (eg honesty bar).
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| Sitter wrote: |
| googiew wrote: |
“We take extreme exception to the suggestion that we are wage dumping. On the salary packages that we offer, what our staff have in their pockets is considerably more than anyone on the minimum wage in the UK.”
Yes, but it is nowhere near the cost of what an Austrian chalet owner would have to pay in total cost for their employees. If an employee is receiving say 1250 net, then the real cost in Austria is probably twice that once you take into account the double payment etc. The Austrian Chalet owner would also provide a room and meals.
If a UK operator is running a chalet, they therefore have a significant competitive advantage as they are paying their staff nowhere near as much as their Austrian competition. In this instance I think it is fair that everyone is operating on a level playing field. |
Also have to disagree with the quote of Andy Perrin's mentioned above. In my year out during uni I was earning minimum wage and had more money than when I was working as a chalet assistant once bills/food/accom etc. was taken in to account, and again working fewer hours in jobs without the potential for tips and other money earners (eg honesty bar). |
Same for me when earning minimum wage (for retail) in Austria. And I lived in much nicer places than the typical 2-4 to a basement room TO conditions. Most chalet staff have what, 60 pounds a week left to spend? TO jobs are a  rip.
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You know it makes sense.
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So it is starting in Austria as well. Not really surprising with the European bank saying Europe may well be slipping back into a recession. I wonder. Will the Austrian hotels etc be able to fill these beds without higher prices. What about Ski hosting and SCGB leading in Austria. Will that be the next target. Welcome to the new Europe! Another thread to keep an eye on as the situation develops.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| flangesax wrote: |
@clarky999, I got a marketing summary/results thang through from Ski Amadé last week.
In comparison to the other markets the British market is incredibly small.... but it does fill those airports every weekend! |
Yes I got it too. Market increasing but still teeny
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowcrazy wrote: |
| So it is starting in Austria as well. Not really surprising with the European bank saying Europe may well be slipping back into a recession. I wonder. Will the Austrian hotels etc be able to fill these beds without higher prices. |
Not really following you there?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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clarky999, laying the groundwork for the usual UKIP/anti EU xenophobia!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Cacciatore, it can certainly be a roulette to challenge the prices offered by TO's (at times).
Probably because they save so much money on the hosts and the staffing set-up.
I remember when expedia and last minute worked like a TO when they first arrived on the scene. You could pick your accommodation and flights and they would put you onto either a scheduled flight or a chartered flight; wherever the cheapest seat was available.
I used to fly on the Thomson planes quite a bit a few years ago.
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TOs use the modern equivalent of slave labour and Austria has woken up to this fact just as Switzerland before them. Tourism should be benefiting local economies, not taking away from them. Even in the absence of national minimum wages there are industry-wide agreements regulating wages/hours and TOs should stick to their terms since these agreements cover chalet holidays too, not just hotels. What TO's do is unfair competition. "But we pay for tickets, provide passes, food and accommodation so all they have left is 100 euros pocket money" is a very weak argument that can be easily refuted. Unless they feed their staff caviar on a daily basis of course...  And I am not sure comparison to the minimum wages in the UK is even legitimate since these people work and live in Austria. If you live and work in country A - your wages should be based on standards of this country, not standards elsewhere.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@nevis1003, +1
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@never summer, slave labour? How can you explain the huge over-application for TO staff positions every year. If the renumeration was that poor, no-one would apply.
It would also be a logistical nightmare to pay everyone according to local min. wage laws. Can you imagine the furore when the Bansko rep on a few lev a month discovers the Wengen rep is on 20 odd CHF an hour?
What does get my goat about TO's is the rise of the 'all-inclusive' (AI) holiday. This really does suck the money away from the local community. AI holidaymakers never need to use the local restaurants, bars, cafes, ice-cream parlours etc. It can have disastrous consequences for those business owners. There are now summer holiday TO's who only offer AI holidays.
I have seen them appearing in ski brochures in the last few years. Perhaps this is one of the factors that these, already existing, laws are now being enforced?
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| Quote: |
Will the Austrian hotels etc be able to fill these beds without higher prices.
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This is not about Austrian hotels; it's about the few TO-run chalets where the TOs have been using staff on UK contracts to run the chalets at rates and conditions which are far worse than those that Austrian employers have to meet. With the possible exception of St Anton/Arlberg, there are not many TO-run chalets in Austria - for example in Saalbach-Hnterglemm there are only two, with a total of fewer than 150 guests, in a resort with over 20,000 guests each week. Where the TOs place their guests into Austrian-run hotels and guest houses, which is the usual model, there will be no impact on prices.
The legislation is not specifically aimed at TOs - it is a general law to prevent wage dumping (e.g. lorry drivers or plumbers employed on non-Austrian contracts but working solely in Austria) that also catches these TOs' employment practices. The minimum wage legislation in the UK has a similar purpose.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 19-11-14 10:08; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
It would also be a logistical nightmare to pay everyone according to local min. wage laws. Can you imagine the furore when the Bansko rep on a few lev a month discovers the Wengen rep is on 20 odd CHF an hour?
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Why? H&M staff in London get paid more than H&M staff in the rest of the UK. Because everything in London costs more they're (theoretically at least) just as well off.
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@never summer, @nevis1003, Totally agree, It would almost be like an Austrian hotel owner paying for example a Slovakian employee, significantly less and then saying “but yes, they are still receiving more in their pocket than those working in Slovakia” It makes no difference, they are working in Austria and so get treated fairly and paid the going rate. I don’t see why the UK TO’s should get away with anything different.
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[quote="quinton"]
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The minimum wage legislation in the UK has a similar purpose. |
Try telling that to independent lorry drivers who own their own vehicle and have to compete with some very well known large European fleets that employ Baltic state / Bulgarian / Romanian drivers on a fraction of UK wages who spend a lot of time driving in the UK. I've had more than a few on ski trips moan about this practice to me
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="dsoutar"]
| quinton wrote: |
| Quote: |
The minimum wage legislation in the UK has a similar purpose. |
Try telling that to independent lorry drivers who own their own vehicle and have to compete with some very well known large European fleets that employ Baltic state / Bulgarian / Romanian drivers on a fraction of UK wages who spend a lot of time driving in the UK. I've had more than a few on ski trips moan about this practice to me |
It's a good comparison as many members of the EU are generally cracking down on 'cabotage', in the same way as they are in skiing.
There have been lots of complaints, as you say, amongst uk, French, spanish, belgium drivers against 'flip flops' (a delightful term used to describe eastern european drivers) to be spending several weeks driving around europe breaking the cabotage rules.
e.g. If you take a full load down to spain. You are allowed to collect 'back loads' on the way back to make the jopurney more cost effective. You are not meant to spend 3 weeks undercutting the local hauliers. This applies across the EU.
To stop this Belgium, a couple of other countries, and now France have just passed a law making it illegal (with I think a 30,000 euro fine for the operator's licence) to spend the mandatory 45 hour weekend break in the cab. The intent, knowing the eastern european hauliers are too mean to pay for a hotel, being to force the trucks back at least each weekend.
The UK is just as keen to stop abuse of the cabotage regulations. Firstly, a new 'HGV levy' is being charged for non UK registered Lorries when they enter the country. Then they have a specific location that, iirc, is operated by VOSA where they pull foreign registered HGVs to try to check for cabotage abuses.
So I guess trying to stick up for your own, isn't restricted to the skiing industry or any particular EU country.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@dode, kids working for "experience" of living in the Alps, often during their gap year. However it doesn't matter for local labour markets. It won't be a "logistical" nightmare to follow the law. Bansko rep is paying Bansko prices for everything. In Switzerland the rep is paying Swiss prices, it's not that the minimum wage in the industry will permit one to open a nice savings account, but it will allow one to live without being subsided by parents/savings. And of course you are right - the contribution of AI tourists to local business is minimal.
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| dode wrote: |
| What does get my goat about TO's is the rise of the 'all-inclusive' (AI) holiday. This really does suck the money away from the local community. AI holidaymakers never need to use the local restaurants, bars, cafes, ice-cream parlours etc. It can have disastrous consequences for those business owners. |
I get your point but it does have to be balanced against the fact that in many resorts a sort of cartel of businesses exist, indeed in some resorts the majority of businesses seem to be owned by a few families. Hence one could argue competition is somewhat limited thus inflating prices. I know by definition things should always be a little more expensive in the resort but frequently the mark-up bears no relation to the prices for identical goods in a village 10km down the road
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I get your point but it does have to be balanced against the fact that in many resorts a sort of cartel of businesses exist, indeed in some resorts the majority of businesses seem to be owned by a few families. Hence one could argue competition is somewhat limited thus inflating prices. I know by definition things should always be a little more expensive in the resort but frequently the mark-up bears no relation to the prices for identical goods in a village 10km down the road
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[cough]bollox[/cough]
That is not true.
I have to pay the same amount for beer all year round whether up a mountain or in town.
I have to pay the same for food too (unless I'm teaching and then it is really cheap!)
All of the business have a meeting and set their main prices to within a few cents of each other. This way they are doing themselves a favour as a guest knows they won't get ripped off.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@flangesax, I think that is probably true for Austria, indeed resorts there are often run by a few families so there is an effective "Cartel" but there is competition between resorts so there is actually very good value to be hand in many family run resorts which is not always the case when a corporation owns the whole mountain.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@flangesax,
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I have to pay the same amount for beer all year round whether up a mountain or in town.
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Yes you lucky bug and it's less than I have to, but I don't get added snow 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@musher, I dunno... knocking on €4 a half litre now!
But grab a case of 20 of them for anything for €6.50 - €15 !!
@TTT, Obertauern has something like 13 (or even 30!... i got the info on the phone from the director of skiline) lift companies.
Each company is a land owner which have made their own 'lift company'.
Most the land is owned by a few farmers but the farm land is farm land and the huts are huts.
And don't get too confused by family names - just because the names are the same doesn't mean they are direct family. One of my best mates is called Walchofer. His cousin is Michi Walchofer.... they've met once and live a town apart.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think it is fair for the Austrians to do this.
If including benefits you can be allowed to pay less than minimum wage it is little more than slavery. Work loads of hours for measly wages just because you're in a ski resort and you get your accomm, hire, travel, pass, food and insurance included? I'm sorry if some don't agree with me but it IS tantamount to slavery, TO's only pay the absolute minimum they can get away with being seen as decent because they think all you really need is 'beer money'. Thus these laws have to be in place to protect workers rights that have been fought so hard for over generations.
I'm amazed the French have been allowing people to get away with this for so long, a change will come soon, especially as TOs only response is 'but they're declaring war on us, it's not fair' well tough!
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Just out of curiosity, what "benefits" does a local get in addition to their wage, if working in a resort in the leisure industry? I mean, presumably they will have to fork out for accommodation, pay for food, have their own insurance. I suspect they may have their own gear, but if their job is snow sports related (not instructor), then they may get a "uniform" and possibly a ski pass etc.
I don't hold with the slavery argument at all. No-one is forcing anyone to do anything against there will. The worker applies in the full knowledge that their working life maybe frenetic, but they seem (in the most part) happy to do something that provides useful life skills and experience and the opportunity to pursue an activity that one assumes they wouldn't otherwise be able to. Has nowt to do with the legal employment matter, of course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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the TOs all have a relatively similar wage, and equally dire living conditions therefore 18 years old have little or no choice if their desire is either to get experience of the holidays industry or just to work a season - one has the right to expect fair pay in accordance with the law, regardless. My UK accountant has told me that wage dumping is not allowed in the UK and he is astonished that these TOs are allowed to do this - it doesn't affect us as we have no staff but I really think nonetheless that something needs to be done to protect the hard earned workers rights. Whether someone applies for it freely wage dumping is a dirty tactic which facilitates massive profit margins to the business, not cool.
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@flangesax, thanks - I'm sure you know better than me. I just know that when I ski in Austria I don't feel ripped off.
You could argue maybe differential dispensation pricing for Brits as they may have higher travel costs or that it is just short term voluntary work and an experience but it is difficult to argue that TOs should have beneficial employment rules compared to local.
The social skiing and instructor topics are debatable but in the big picture they are really minor issues for the majority of people.
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@Cacciatore, In Austria they will also receive a double payment twice a year. If working in a hotel/chalet they will also get a room and food. For example in Mayrhofen a basic role would be c1200 a month net, the tax element and double payment means that it would cost the employer nearly 2400 a month as well as paying for the room/food etc. This is obviously significantly more than what the UK TO pay for staff to work in a competing business, hence why they want to level the playing field
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Well the queues for (not just 18 year olds) seasonnaire jobs tend to suggest that there is a plentiful supply of workers who are prepared for that environment. Moreover, many do so again and again. Unless you are suggesting, @Mountain Addiction, that none have the intelligence or intellect to make a free choice.
I am sure that the vast majority do not take seasonnaire jobs to go into the leisure industry, either. As for dirty capitalism...  Maybe some UK-based TOs are waking up to a new dawn. One can hardly blame them for aiming to make a profit from a situation that they have, until now, been able to exploit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@googiew, thank you for clarifying.
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| Cacciatore wrote: |
| Just out of curiosity, what "benefits" does a local get in addition to their wage, if working in a resort in the leisure industry? I mean, presumably they will have to fork out for accommodation, pay for food, have their own insurance. I suspect they may have their own gear, but if their job is snow sports related (not instructor), then they may get a "uniform" and possibly a ski pass etc. |
Accommodation yes you normally have to pay - I'm currently paying €550 a month (split between two of us) for a nice 2 bedroom flat with big kitchen, living room, bathroom, balcony and a spare (read ski) room right in the middle of a ski resort. WAY nicer than anything a TO will cram more than double the amount of people into.
Food, yeah of course you have to pay.
Insurance - comes off your wages like a tax. No need for travel insurance. Mountain evac insurance = €20 a year with the Alpenverein.
Lift pass - usually you get a discount (not normally advertised) if you're registered as living in the area (eg. day ticket for someone living in Tirol [as long as they bring their Meldetzettel] is €29 rather than €40whatever).
So lets assume a minimum wage of €1200 a month after tax (as in retail) and you have WAY more money left in your pocket than a TO worker. Plus holiday, and max 38.5 hours work a week.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 19-11-14 19:07; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
