I have been thinking about giving it a try for the last few years, but so far have not got round to it due to the extra hassle of hiring the gear, it always seems time is so precious when your in the mountains.
Is it worth giving a try?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It depends what you want to do really.
I was in Whistler over new year when the conditions were "brutal" in local parlance. Piste only, no real powder there. My boarding mates, many of whom are "washed up professionals" quite wisely stay home when the conditions are like that. "Snowboards suck on hardpack" is what they'd tell you.
My metal race board on the other hand is precisely designed to rock in those kind of conditions. I could slalom past the crowds side-slipping on their park boards like they were stationary. Personally I gravitated to race boards for piste simply because they work well there. I ride a track bike on tarmac probably for the same reason: I like my gear to be responsive, and I don't mind learning how to use it.
But I'm not in the least evangelical about it - I don't much care what everyone else rides, or I'd have not started snowboarding in the first place. I do get some shit from children about riding hard now and then, as it's so unfashionable. They go quiet when I ride rings around them (sometimes literally).
So no, it's probably easier to go skiing that to learn to ride a race board. Unless you're a good softboot rider in which case it's a pretty straightforward switch. It's a challenge getting / demoing the gear unless you go to a specific hard boot convention (there are many), or ride in Austria (eg Solden etc), where there are rental shops. Or if you know someone with some gear to lend. Precise sizing of the board is important - if the board's not balanced for your weight it'll not work correctly.
I agree about the "precious" thing; the only time put into riding soft boots, or riding no-boards, have been when my hard gear's been lost by airlines. Of course if you're in a resort like Whistler when it's all hard-pack, that too is a good time to try something new. In Whistler you may be able to find hard boot gear in Prior's shop; I'm not sure.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I never get that, "its too icy", "its too slushy" thing, my mantra has always been "any slope, any condition, anywhere I can", I enjoy adapting my riding to the condition available and so far that always beats riding the couch. I've never counted but have about 3 weeks a year on the board on average for 20 years+, so feel its time I give it a try, or rather I should say another try.
Last time I tried hard boots was in 1995 at hillend dry ski slope, first run of the day ended in a spiral fracture of my tibia, since that day I have neither tried hard boots or skiing again.
Anyway the extreme carving thing looks like fun one day I may even try a pair of planks again.
I never get that, "its too icy", "its too slushy" thing...
I think it depends how much slope time you have. If you can ride any day, then some days are clearly better for riding than others. With the right gear you have a much larger range of "good" days to choose from, hence I always carry powder and race boards, but just the one set of hard boots.
I can't really say how the transition would be. People do it different ways - soft boots on a race board, race boots on a soft board. Although I do the latter a lot on powder, I'd just get the stuff and then spend a day getting used to it. If you're a good ride it'll be awkward for a few hours, but that's it. Start with the mellowest "race" stance you can and work from there. Good riders can and do carve soft gear; it's not that different. From a distance you can't really tell the difference between good riders on different gear, unless you go for a particularly extreme style (which probably you will not want to start with).
http://bomberonline.com/ is probably the best starting point for information - they're North American-centric and race-style oriented. Americans like big boards. Some of those guys actually teach CASI on hard boots if that's your thing.
http://frozen-backside.de/ is more European - shorter, sometimes narrower boards, steeper slopes. Useful if you're after people to ride with (to learn from) in Europe.
New here, so I'll just introduce myself - I'm Bart. I ride both hard and soft setup. Recently more soft boots than hard.
It's always worth to try something new. If your riding is solid - switching to hard boots is only formality. If it's not - you will be penalized...
At the same time, there is quite a lot of carving happening on soft boots. There are more and more really good carving boards for softboots out there.
Even the EC guys are doing it in soft boots now.
Cheers
Bart
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Have you tried carving in the gear you already have?
Bindings both forward - Front upto 60deg, rear min 40deg. If you normally have a wide wide stance, narrow it up a tad. When you turn - tuck our back knee into the front one. It will take you 10 min to adjust your gear and it will blow you away how different it is. Only if you can handle that - then have go at hard boots. Like Bart said - you will be penalized!
After all it is free
After all it is free
Good point, I'll give it a try when I'm back in the alps in April, I normally ride with about 5 and 20 so will swing them round a bit further.
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Where, when in April and what shoe size are you JimboS. I am in Val Thorens at Easter and you would be welcome to try some of my hard boot gear. Its all modern race gear (SG, Donek) but if you are proficient enough rider you will not find them to hard to master.
I would not bother moving you bindings to really high angles, only enough to prevent toe, heel and binding heel cup drag. Don't forget to move the high backs round so you heel side carves are not compromised.
As to your last question, yes definitely worth a try. I use soft boots and hard boots, love my soft boot set ups (stiff freeride boards and boots) but when there is no fresh and the cord comes a calling, a race (carve) set up is unbeatable. Especially if you are not bothered about parks and rails, that said if you have the skills there is no reason why you cannot railslide a 185 Pgs board.
Also when did you last ski, as I recently strapped some on for the first time in ages and they were a revelation, great fun. Previous to that was 1980's skiing on skinny skis like 205's.
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willow 15, Thanks for the offer but we will be in Mayrhofen/Hintertux, thanks for the tips. I've probably got more than 50 weeks boarding under my belt so am reasonably good. As for skiing, last turns must have been around 1995 the same time as I broke my leg, I will give another try sometime.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Throwing my hard boot board in a skip in 2001 was the single best thing I ever did for my enjoyment of the mountains.
They don't work until you are going way too fast for a public piste and you will never be fit enough to ride one all day long.
They are no better on ice/hard pack than any decent camber board, ridden by someone who knows what they are doing.
Some may enjoy it but after many years of riding one, I thankfully got it out of my system.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Well I ride a race board all day long, top to bottom, and I'm no superhero. If you're using a lot of effort you're doing it wrong. Same thing in powder, with a powder board of course.
Old school (GS) boards, or US style "carving boards" are intended for Mach 2, and I'd agree public pistes are a challenge for those. Personally I ride a 156 Kessler Slalom... designed to dodge backwards around tourists on park boards, that works at walking speed upwards, and I'm still rarely passed by anyone, skier or boarder, on piste.
Sure, good soft boot riders can carve extremely well on squidgy gear, although most of those I ride with tend to stick to the powder by choice. On days when that's not on the cards, they stay home, I have a blast riding the piste.
I think you'll find that a modern metal board is better than any glass board on hard pack, which is why no race has been won on glass for years. You may be pleasantly surprised by modern technology - I was when I first rode it.
But I'm glad you found what you like. I love my Kessler.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Phil I ride a half pipe board. It's mega stiff and carves like nothing I have ever ridden, as you would expect.
My old race board was a 185 GS board. It was not for public consumption.
I am also pleased that you have found a board that you like.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Well I tried a couple of runs with my bindings turned round to about 40, 60 degrees, it was pretty awkward to start with as expected and I got a bit of pain on my front outer heal. Anyway I got a few sketchy runs in, no videos as a am sure I looked pretty bad and I felt I was lacking in control, so I eventually swapped back as there was a lot of pow about.
This is me with my standard angles on one of the virtually deserted pistes yesterday.
There's no good reason to run race-style angles on a soft-board. The bindings and board are not designed for it and it's just going to be uncomfortable and inefficient. You can carve very, very effectively in a duck stance. It is not quite the same technique as on a race/freecarve board, but the end result is much the same.
By all means go for a full hard-boot & carving board setup though! Just don't ride powder on it, that's just weird...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
When I've had to ride soft gear, you have to adapt to the limitations of it. Try Terje's stance.
Carving on a twin-tip board with a symmetrical stance looks ugly but it can be done.
From the video I think you can carve a lot harder on that rig, just ride faster, push the edge harder, bend your knees more...
I ride powder boards in hard boots all the time. I don't think the snow knows what's keeping my toes warm.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
philwig, a few years ago I would have agreed with you but I now think that, unless you're trying to do laid-out carves for the sake of doing laid-out carves (i.e. it becomes a trick, not a turn) then a duck stance is the best way to carve a softboot board. Even then, it's possible to eurocarve with a duck stance (pretty easy toe-edge, tricky heel-edge!).
I was a Terje stance man for years, but I've spent so long now riding an "aligned" stance and body position that the "twisted-up" hard boot / forward-stance position just looks wrong. Swapped boards with someone who rides like that a few weeks back and it felt truly horrible.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This video shows a couple of competent riders clearly fighting their gear - check the arm waving and body positions. Perhaps they're not "good enough", but they're better than most. I don't think it is wrong, or even that it "looks wrong", just that it looks like you could tune it quite a lot.
I'm trying to carve like that but just cant get low down like that. I can for short periods then I just lose confidence. I have no desire to ride a race/ carve board with hard boots but I noticed the last vid the bloke was on an Rome agent, I'd guess its the cambered version not rocker so that would be better for it. I'm taking my cambered stiff board next year so I'll practice some more.
philwig, there's a lot to like in that video, some stuff not to like as well (i don't like the heelside position very much). Partly, it's that "getting low" has become the aim rather than controlling the turn shape. As you say, there's a fair amount of un-necessary arm-flapping going on too. Looks fun though!
Gainz, try dropping low to your board (i.e. flexing all your joints) very early, putting your back hand on the snow and only then cranking the turn on. Get some actual weight on your hand if you're going for a cranked out Eurocarve. This all applies to toe-side. For heelside, you need to get the FRONT forearm down and put weight on it. But I can't do heel-side either.
If the aim of the game is to make super-tight, carved turns then touching the snow is a distraction, you're better off staying a bit higher and concentrating on other things (pedalling, edge angle).
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
philwig wrote:
From the video I think you can carve a lot harder on that rig, just ride faster, push the edge harder, bend your knees more...
Your right, but I can never get any decent footage of me riding in my normal style as my wife won't ski any faster than that in the video so I just turn into a spec in the distance, however I'm not complaining as I am very lucky to have a wife that loves ski holidays and will have a go at any terrain whether it be on of off piste.
After all it is free
After all it is free
JimboS, if you're REALLY carving hard, you should be getting over-taken by snow-ploughing ski-schools and geriatric ski-clubs. You're just covering about 10x the distance!
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I'd really recommend not touching the snow even as a drill. Like skiers who ride with their legs forced together, it's confusing cause and effect, in my view. If the snow's there then it's there, but you don't want to reach for it as it'll make you break at the waist and put you out of position.
Even cutting deep side-to-side trenches you'll generally be much quicker than most if you're not side-slipping. Catch me if you can.
I came across another video of a much better soft-boot carver:
Hmmm, don't like that one much (apart from the "that's dogsh*t!" line!). Did he actually link 2 carved turns at any point in that video?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
The "dog poo-poo" lines I thought the worst bit - I couldn't immediately get the analogy, until I realised there wasn't one, he just meant "poo-poo". Linked turns, 2:25, 2:33...
Each to their own, there's plenty of room out there for everyone.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Well, I've just sat my BASI3 Tech exam and, while I didn't quite make it through, I did smash the carving section!
I was thinking about this thread at times. The trainers were asking us for more and more performance out of the board, riding tighter turns at higher speeds while still carving clean arcs. The key to this on a freestyle setup is board torsion, using twist to change the sidecut radius of the board and therefore tighten the turns. Maximising this resulted in my using quite a bit of upper-body separation to get the force into the board, almost ending up in hard-boot body position. Interesting.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Interesting.
I ride with a lot of soft boot people, some of whom are very good, and unless someone's making a specific point of it it's often hard to tell who's riding what from a distance. => There's stuff you need to do to make it work which is not dependent on the gear. However my Kessler's not going to twist much.
I'm pleasantly surprised that BASI let you do it, mind - they (and CASI) don't really go there in what they teach the early levels at least.
Here's a zillion photos of people riding hard boots with a variety of styles from last weekend.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
BASI is quite prescriptive in terms of body-position in the early levels, but at the top level some "personal expression" is allowed and even encouraged. They're clear that what is important is the output - i.e. what the board is doing. How you achieve that is up to you, but you're unlikely to get the best performance without using something close to "proper" technique.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Cool pics. There were a couple of groups around at the same time doing the top-level Austrain snowboard instructor exam. They have to do a day on hard-boots!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
And at risk of appearing to be talking to myself - there's essentially 2 ways to change the radius of a carved turn. Change the edge angle or change the board radius (torsional flex).
On a race board, it's very hard to get torsional flex due to the stiffness, but it's easier to get very high edge angles. The opposite is true on a freestyle board!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
My mate Ian describes the first of your "2 ways". The rider varies edge angle by angulation, which enables the board to deliver turns of different radii at a given speed, even though the board has a single side-cut radius[1]. There are complexities, but this is essentially how the machine works.
That's how hard booters turn on piste. When I ride powder boards, which are not necessarily torsionally stiff, my boots provide some of that stiffness, but in any case I'm loading the edge consistently with both feet. The difference in rider body position between the first video I posted compared to the Knapton one demonstrates two approaches soft booters may use to adapt their "freestyle" gear to the mechanics of the turn, which are the same for everyone.
I find the second of your "2 ways" more curious. I know "pedalling" is taught and I can see why, but I'm confused about cause and effect here. Does BASI have an explanation of what they think is happening to the edge of the "freestyle" board in a turn where this is being used? I think I know, but I'm curious what you think/ what they say.
--
1 Of course many boards do not have a simple radius - my Kessler uses a clothoid curve for example.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
stevomcd wrote:
And at risk of appearing to be talking to myself - there's essentially 2 ways to change the radius of a carved turn. Change the edge angle or change the board radius (torsional flex).
On a race board, it's very hard to get torsional flex due to the stiffness, but it's easier to get very high edge angles. The opposite is true on a freestyle board!
Wouldn't torsional flex be benign he board across the width of it? Can't see how that would help - on skis poor torsional stiffness usually leads to poor edge grip.
Longitudional flex, bending the board along it's length (and so into the turn, tightening the radius) makes a lot more sense. Or are skiing and boarding totally different here?
philwig totally agree with your mate's description above (have read it before a few times in fact - my background is in mechanical engineering so the physics is right up my street).
You'll notice that C, the board sidecut radius is part of the equations. Changing C changes the radius of the turn. It really is possible to vary the sidecut radius of a snowboard using your feet. In a carved turn, the trick is to do this while still holding a clean arc and, as you say, loading the edge fairly evenly. It is "pedalling", but in this case it's actually what we would call "counter-pedalling".
Normal pedalling, which can be taught to beginners to produce a basic skidded turn, involves pushing down on the front foot while resisting with the back foot to cause the front end of the board to skid more than the back end. In a basic turn, you can do this to skid the board down to the fall-line, then reverse it (front foot up, back foot down) to pull the board away from the fall line. This is very effective (you can do a basic turn with very minimal movement other than foot-pedalling) but beginners do find it a bit confusing.
Counter pedalling is a little different. Imagine you are completing a toe-side carved turn . You have clean grip on the toe edge. In a basic carved turn, you would now make a strong lateral movement to switch to the heel edge and immediately start carving a clean arc on the heel-side. This is fine and works well, however the turn radius is limited by the amount of edge angle you can obtain. On a soft-boot setup, you can't get extreme angles or you'll start getting heelcup issues or simply blow out as the board can't take the forces. As a result, you're unlikely to be able to sustain clean carves on anything other than fairly gentle terrain. We call this "park and ride" carving - you're carving, but are holding a more-or-less static position and are unable to significantly influence the turn shape.
Counter pedalling works like this. You are completing that toe-side turn. Instead of just moving across the board to the new edge, you perform a strong pedal with the front foot. This engages the front part of the new edge early. A strong enough pedal may even mean that you have BOTH edges in the snow for a brief moment. As soon as the new edge is engaged, you match this with the rear foot. You now have both feet working strongly and are riding a strong platform, ideally still on the downhill edge (i.e. all of this happens before the fall-line). You are now in a similar position to the basic carve described above, but should have gained a tighter radius and stronger platform in the first part of the turn. As the board continues around its arc, you can actively "de-pedal" or counter-pedal with the front foot and increase the pedal on the back foot. You're on your heel-edge so you are effectively pushing down with the toe of your front foot and pulling up with the toe of your back foot. This both changes the sidecut radius, tightening the turn, and also results in a weight-shift aft. As you reach the end of the turn, moving from this position to another front-foot pedal results in a powerful release of the torsional twist in the board and the bending of the tail due to the aft weight shift, launching you explosively into the next turn.
This can be used in all kinds of turns, but it is easiest to experiment with it in a carved turn as you have time to make quite subtle movements and feel the effects. You can be constantly adjusting the amount of counter pedal through the turn to tweak the turn shape and account for the snow conditions.
Try it, it's very powerful and very noticeable.
Hard boot riders do, of course, also use the fore and aft movements. That's why your board has a tighter radius at the back of the board - your aft movement at the end of the turn engages this part of the edge more strongly, tightening the end of the turn.
Fore-aft movements and pedalling are likely to result in skidding for inexperienced riders, but a strong rider can make these movements and still hold a clean carve, giving much more control over the turn shape. The effort required to counter pedal at high speed on steep slopes will often result in the rider's upper body twisting somewhat as the core and the whole body engages to resist the forces.
There's a written project required for the top-level BASI qualification and I'm planning on using my engineering background to put some numbers on this stuff and come up with a "physics of snowboarding" which encompasses pedalling and soft-boot technique.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I was specifically curious about "pedalling", which I assumed is how you were suggesting one may change the radius of a carved turn.
I was going to point that If you increase the angle of attack at the front but not the back (impossible on my Kessler, entirely possible on a soft board).... you now have two different angles of attack along the length. I'd expect the front to track, but the back, with less inclination, would wash out => a skidded turn. So I was thinking that that is not a good example of how to change the radius of a carved turn.
Fore-aft weight shift on the other hand is something I'd forgotten about but is another way to do it. It's more amusing on a glass board as you get a kick from the tail too, which is absent in metal. Carving circles is one place you'd probably want to do this in spades.
I've not come across "counter pedalling", but then I don't have to deal with "free style" boards on piste. As described it sounds like a slower transition, perhaps a way to make a transition easier on a flexible board? Still I'm not clear how that affects the turn radius specifically, which has to come down to the basic mechanics sooner or later, no?
philwig, deforming the board through pedalling / torsional flex physically changes the shape of the sidecut, hence changing the turn radius.
Pedalling as you describe it, producing a skidded turn, is also useful, but it is also possible to pedal the board and still hold a clean carve.
It's not necessarily a slower transition. It can be done very quickly. If you simply flip from one edge to the other, you have a period of time where you have no grip/performance at all. By twisting the board, you have edge contact, grip and performance at all times. Lets just call it a BETTER transition![/quote]
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I guess we'll have to disagree on that.
As per the mechanics, turn radius is a function of your speed and the angle of the edge. Hence If you vary the angle of the edge along the contact surface.... part of that edge is "at the wrong speed" for the turn you're making, hence it's going to skid. That's easily observable, and why race boards are designed the way they are.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Phil - it's easy for a good rider to hold a clean carve on a twisted edge, trust me on this (one thing I can do pretty well).
Don't think of it as varying the edge angle along the length of the board, think of it as a deformed board with a steady edge angle. Anything in physics which involves snow is never easily reduced to a simple formula. Snow is such a complex and malleable material that it's possible to get away with some deviation from a perfect mathematical model.
You could equally argue that if you're on a board with a varying sidecut radius along its length (simple radius, double radius, parabollic, quadratic...) then part of the sidecut radius is going to be the "wrong shape" for the edge angle / speed / turn radius.
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Try googling "extremecarving, you'll find EC community, website, videos, instructional tutorials from 0 to laid down turns and.the suggested boards (Swoard). I LOVE their riding style, but can't afford a swoard board yet, so i am having fun with an old Burton Factory prime (199x).
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Totally agree with Philwig, if you do the pedalling correctly, then you will be able to make perfect carved turns even on soft gear. Basi trainer on my last course was doing this all the time. Instead of moving from one edge to another, you must follow this pattern:
(Assuming you are regular, from a toeside diagonal)
Front foot toe and back foot toe engaged, both knees bend
Strong up movement, almost jump (at high speed)
Engage the front foot heel edge, while keeping the back foot toe edge engaged (the f.f.h.e. must be exactly where the toe edge was before)
Engage also the back foot heel edge
Bend both knees
Carved turn completed
Absolutlely no shoulder rotation is needed
In order to control the speed, keep every turn to the point where you are pointed up, to the top of the slope!
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