 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whats the RRP ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mike Pow will be turning in his powder at the thought of this 
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What would you being willing to pay?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm struggling to determine your cause & effect.
Are you saying that an incorrectly performed and/or timed pole plant is the main reason that a skier catches an edge or loses balance which results in a greater chance of sustaining an ACL injury?
And by using 'Peak' ACL injuries will be a thing of the past?
Re: your advertising copy,
I don't think 'gadget' is the strongest word you could use to describe 'Peak'.
The quote is meaningless without citing the person who said "You'll be convinced that you can't live without it"
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 3-08-14 18:58; edited 1 time in total
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The ACL injuries to women that I see are to good skiers who try to recover from being out of balance, I don't see how this device will help to stop someone doing an instinctive movement.
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It needs to be cheap or undesirable enough for users not to worry about it being stolen off their poles from outside mountain restaurants, or to not need recalibration if you take it off and put it back again.
I'm not sure I'd want instant feedback from a vibrating pole unless it knew magically knows when I'm turning in a situation that I think doesn't need it otherwise there would be a lot of buzzing as I lazily pull in to a cafe stop or ski slowly to wait for people.
My guess is there's a bigger market for an accelerometer and possibly a strain gauge that somehow attaches to skis, e.g. layered under the bindings or with some secure method you'd have to invent for rentals, and some snazzy software to analyse how rubbish my turns are by relative visualising ski angle and weight distribution as well as precisely tracking what I got up to.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It uses a "9-axis motion tracking sensor". Struggling to visualise that . Aren't 3 axes sufficient to describe motion?
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Presumably accelerometer, gyroscope, and compass. 3 axes each. (9 axis is doubtless what the part used's manufacturer calls it.)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
I'm struggling to determine your cause & effect.
Are you saying that an incorrectly performed and/or timed pole plant is the main reason that a skier catches an edge or loses balance which results in a greater chance of sustaining an ACL injury?
And by using 'Peak' ACL injuries will be a thing of the past?
Re: your advertising copy,
I don't think 'gadget' is the strongest word you could use to describe 'Peak'.
The quote is meaningless without citing the person who said "You'll be convinced that you can't live without it" |
No I'm not saying that bad performance/timing of a pole plant is the main cause of injuries. If a skier isn't moving their arms, then it's not going to help with their balance, (towards end of the day, skiers get tired and more lazy). I understand that there are other factors like the press and bending of the legs during a turn has an impact, which I would like to test. Beginners have a lack of rhythm to their skiing and if a product alerts the user to turn, its like the skier instructor shouting to them to turn, instead of them getting to the side of the piste and stopping.
ACL injuries will still happen, If people really want to protect their ACL, then they should buy a knee brace, but it is not user friendly and they cost a lot. I wanted to provide a cheap alternative, that could improve peoples technique, allow them to check themselves (like the skiing apps, but with more input) and help skiers progress quicker while learning to ski. As beginners are more likely to injure themselves.
I understand about your worries with the Advertisement.
I am not a skiing instructor, just a designer with a passion in skiing.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rjs wrote: |
| The ACL injuries to women that I see are to good skiers who try to recover from being out of balance, I don't see how this device will help to stop someone doing an instinctive movement. |
It is not going to help in all cases. It should be seen more as a product that can help you monitor your skiing and hopefully improve it and as a side affect, reduce your chances of falling.
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uniqueox, All good luck..I wish you well, looks interesting.
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You know it makes sense.
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| mtsuit wrote: |
It needs to be cheap or undesirable enough for users not to worry about it being stolen off their poles from outside mountain restaurants, or to not need recalibration if you take it off and put it back again.
I'm not sure I'd want instant feedback from a vibrating pole unless it knew magically knows when I'm turning in a situation that I think doesn't need it otherwise there would be a lot of buzzing as I lazily pull in to a cafe stop or ski slowly to wait for people.
My guess is there's a bigger market for an accelerometer and possibly a strain gauge that somehow attaches to skis, e.g. layered under the bindings or with some secure method you'd have to invent for rentals, and some snazzy software to analyse how rubbish my turns are by relative visualising ski angle and weight distribution as well as precisely tracking what I got up to. |
It has been designed so people can take it inside the restaurant quick and easy. Testing the re-calibration needs to be carried out, but there shouldn't be any problems and if there is, then it'll be fixed.
There would be a feature to stop the product buzzing lots. I understand that concern and further testing needs to be done to make the product more intelligent.
You could add many sensors all over the skier and equipment.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Neat idea, though it seems a little bit of a stretch to say that it will reduce your chance of ACL injury. If you can make em cheaply enough, maybe selling them as a training aid might be enough?
Don't be coy about pricing. Asking people 'how much would you pay for X' won't ever get a useful response, unless 'X' is something that costs people money on a regular basis. I'm not a marketer, and even I know enough about market research to know it is a useless question for a consumer gadget like this.
Is there anything else you can usefully do with the same technology? Something that goes 'bzzzt!' when you get in the backseat or stick yer arse out too far, perhaps 
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Poster: A snowHead
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uniqueox, The women that I have watched tear their ACLs over the years fall over afterwards, there isn't much change in body position before the injury.
Some research that I have seen suggested that women tear their ACLs more easily because the muscles around their knees don't activate as quickly as men's do and that this gets worse with fatigue. A device with some electrical sensors on the skin near the knee that could detect changes in patterns of muscle use might help by letting people know when they are getting tired.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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When does the device buzz?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Serriadh wrote: |
Neat idea, though it seems a little bit of a stretch to say that it will reduce your chance of ACL injury. If you can make em cheaply enough, maybe selling them as a training aid might be enough?
Don't be coy about pricing. Asking people 'how much would you pay for X' won't ever get a useful response, unless 'X' is something that costs people money on a regular basis. I'm not a marketer, and even I know enough about market research to know it is a useless question for a consumer gadget like this.
Is there anything else you can usefully do with the same technology? Something that goes 'bzzzt!' when you get in the backseat or stick yer arse out too far, perhaps |
Thank you, I believe it can reduce chances of ACL injury occuring, by improving peoples technique and awareness, but would have to test to find out.
I designed the product to have a RRP of £80, people have told me prices they would pay from £20 to £40 to £70.
I am sure there is, but more development would be needed. I would like to work with more ski instructors to improve the product.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rjs wrote: |
| uniqueox, A device with some electrical sensors on the skin near the knee that could detect changes in patterns of muscle use might help by letting people know when they are getting tired. |
This might solve the problem, but isn't a commercial product because, people don't tend to buy products to prevent injuries, it has taken years for helmets to become popular.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting, though I'm not sure that an aide-mémoire simply for pole planting in isolation will be much more than an early learning tool. If it was combined with the ability to measure yaw, pitch and torque force through the binding interface then it could be effective in measuring a skiers whole performance at pretty much any level. Don't forget that as speed and competance increases the physical act of 'planting a pole' becomes less a part of the sliding process as the arm mass movements have become the balance counterpoints rather than the physical contact point with the snow. (not in all cases I hasten to add) I've seen some beautiful skiing sans poles.
At least some serious thought has gone into this project and quite good presentation graphics.
see, I can be nice 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I can't begin to understand how this works so would be unlikely to buy it. Is it just me or do the skiers in the "how peak can help you" graphics look in the back seat?
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80 quid seems pretty steep for the intended use, to be honest.
I've a sneaking suspicion that something attached to the lower legs/boots might tell you more interesting things about how a person skis, and by way of a bonus might be combined with a smartphone GPS track to render a nice high quality 3d descent track complete with peak g-force annotations. I bet you'll find it easier to market a device that can give people an objective measurement of how much more of a hazardous/awesome skiier they are than their peers...
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| Masque wrote: |
Interesting, though I'm not sure that an aide-mémoire simply for pole planting in isolation will be much more than an early learning tool. If it was combined with the ability to measure yaw, pitch and torque force through the binding interface then it could be effective in measuring a skiers whole performance at pretty much any level. Don't forget that as speed and competance increases the physical act of 'planting a pole' becomes less a part of the sliding process as the arm mass movements have become the balance counterpoints rather than the physical contact point with the snow. (not in all cases I hasten to add) I've seen some beautiful skiing sans poles.
At least some serious thought has gone into this project and quite good presentation graphics.
see, I can be nice |
I'm with Him, whilst I cant see, from what has been shown, how this will actually reduce ACL injuries, in fact Id go a little further as I'd like to see the justification in terms of figures over the cause of ACL injury.
I do think the marketing and presentation as far as I can see are actually very good, especially compared to some of the other stuff we have seen about these parts.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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oh boy...
life is too short for gadgets like this.
just get someone to video you on your phone if you need to gather information
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I think you'll get yourself in whole heaps of trouble if you start promoting it as a safety device to reduce ACL injuries. That whole " the problem" bit looks like finest woo science. It's an interesting idea though and if you made it a kind of skiing fitband, with full app support at a " give it a shot" price then I can see the usual gadget freaks snapping it up.
Struggle to see how it will make anyone a better skier though. Getting distracted by pole plants is a sure way to lock an entire tier of skiers into bad habits elsewhere.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 3-08-14 22:12; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FWIW : ACL injuries are mainly caused by peoples weight being too far back and then subsequently having a twisting crash.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Pretty and positive marketing of a pointless product.
For pole planting slow stuff down and if you really want something to help, then just make your phone beep at you every few seconds for some short turn reps.
It seems silly to go to the length of design and production for something with such a focused task (or have I missed something??)
There is enough faff without addnig the removal of tech from a pole.
Plugging something in at home is a bit out of date now. Blue tooth or even wireless technology will make detailed feedback instant in the cafe (if you need it)....
The piccy in the brochure is someone learning a snowplough turn; not really appropriate imagery for a pole planting based 'gadget'.
uniqueox, My honest advice to you is be proud of the poster and what you have put in to it. Don't invest a penny or ask anyone else to.
.....I'm out! 
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If it works to accelerate skill development then people will use it, I don't think the price point would be critical if it was effective. I think your main issue would be convincing people that it worked. Some expert endorsement would help achive this. I could see instructors using them for specific pole planting sessions.
Good luck.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| FWIW : ACL injuries are mainly caused by peoples weight being too far back and then subsequently having a twisting crash. |
Exactly as it appears in the graphics IMHO
It doesn't sit well with me....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| It uses a "9-axis motion tracking sensor". Struggling to visualise that . Aren't 3 axes sufficient to describe motion? |
I can think of 6; struggling with 9!
up/down; forward/backward; left/right; Pitch; roll and yaw.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's not very clear what this gadget is supposed to measure or help with - I'm not convinced that your rationale of a correctly timed pole touch decreasing ACL injuries is correct, since it is quite possible to execute a technically accurate turn without a pole touch. The timing of a pole touch does vary, due to turn radius, speed and terrain - does the device allow for this?
I'm wondering how it's possible to do a pole touch/plant without swinging the pole? Maybe it's semantics, but using a wrist movement to execute a pole touch usually means the pole makes a controlled swinging motion.
In my experience, ACL injuries occur due to a twisting fall where the ski binding hasn't released soon enough, and are not necessarily a result of poor technique. I've seen far more ACL injuries in advanced and expert skiers than I have in beginners.
As for the for the advertising - it's a little busy - all the information about the testing isn't really needed, although that could be included on a web site. The photos on the dry slope are poor, and showing a snowplough/wedge turn doesn't make me feel like I would improve my technique with this device. The grey skiers on the next page are all sitting back, which is annoying.
I do like your front page, though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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a multi axis gyroscopic, acelerometer & magnetometer for £80 snap the guys hand off, even if it doesn't work it is about a 10th of the price of the cheapest of these systems used in movement testing for sports and medical situations
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| CEM wrote: |
| a multi axis gyroscopic, acelerometer & magnetometer for £80 snap the guys hand off, even if it doesn't work it is about a 10th of the price of the cheapest of these systems used in movement testing for sports and medical situations |
CEM Even higher than that usually, but sadly that's the norm.
Sounds even worse when you consider that that technology is built already into nearly every smartphone as an ancillary feature. (even my current £130 one).
Here are the 9....... plus a fair bit more for a tenner http://invensense.com/mems/gyro/documents/PB-MPU-9150IMF%20MotionFit%20Wireless%20Developer%20Kit%20Product%20Brief.pdf
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I read the 9-axis as +X, -X, +Y, -Y, +Z, -Z, and roll pitch yaw around those erm 3 axes. Standard marketing practice. Think Sony did the similar with its 6-axis controller. Which is 3 axes as is the Wiimote. This product is 3 axis, and potentially 6dof.
There are tricks to get more axes though - spaceships for example will misalign gyros etc. relative to the axes you care about, so if one axis breaks, there is a rotational component of each axis you care about in the remaining 2 axes. But then there are other genuine sensors looking at the Earth, the Sun and the stars, a bit like a Wiimote looking at the 2 LEDs on the sensor bar (which doesn't actually sense anything btw - the remote senses the sensor bar).
Might strap a spare Wiimote+ to my ski pole out of curiosity - must be an android app that can talk to it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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uniqueox, As a passionate skier and techie I can see why you want to produce a ski related product. I think this though is too focused on a single skiing aspect and not sure even if you refine the product that the "faff" factor is worth the return on investment for the average skier. I'd imagine the basic product features could be adapted to several other aspects of skiing and indeed many other sports and activities. Maybe a product like this is better to market to ski schools / instructors - it's the type of product that could be useful in a training environment, I'd imagine maybe pro-ski teams already use sensors to collect masses of data they can analyse to squeeze out tiny improvements, if not there's your market.
I'd seriously recommend you learn about "lean startup" practices, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lean_startup and the original book on the subject http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Lean-Startup-Innovation-Successful/dp/0670921602?tag=amz07b-21, it's the idea of eliminating waste in product development, going to market early with a Minimum Viable Product (MVP), measuring metrics, experimenting, improving with feedback. Basically find yourself some willing testers now and get some real world feedback to see if you've a viable product, if not PIVOT - in other words change the focus of the product or dump it and find a different product. Don't be afraid to "fail" the product soon and move on to something that will succeed. Even if this product is not successful you will have learned loads about the tech, testing, people, the market, the competition etc. Now if only I listened to my own advise!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| uniqueox wrote: |
Hello everyone
I am sorry this is a bit late, but thank you for filling out my questionnaire, it helped me a lot for my University project, where I have now graduated with a 1st 
The initial start was reducing knee injuries, I found from research and the questionnaire I put on here at the start that most people only buy knee protection after a knee injury and not as a preventative. I decided to design a product that helps skiers improve their technique, to minimise the chances of falling over as beginners are one group that is most at risk.
I'd really appreciate it if you could provide feedback, about what you think of the product, by clicking on the link below.
I have started a new forum post here: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2559939#2559939
Thank you again!
Aaron |
Congratulations on passing your undergraduate degree with a 1st and coming up with this idea and product.
You said earlier that
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I am not a skiing instructor, just a designer with a passion in skiing.
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and this is very evident from the product you've designed and the answers you've provided to the responses in this thread.
And your university supervisor must be in the same boat, as I can't see the null hypothesis for this thesis and subsqequent product design being proven.
I agree with flangesax.
Be proud of all your hard work and your academic achievement and move on.
IMHO this is an overengineered product that doesn't 'solve' the problem. The claims you are making can not be substantiated unfortunately.
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I think the reason people only buy knee "protection" after an incident is that there is very poor evidence on the ability of even the most highly engineered braces to act prophyatically. So it's a problem that is unlikely to be solved other than through good leg strength and pre-conditioning, sound technique and retraining instincts on how to "execute" a fall rather than risk a more catastrophic "recovery".
& any talk of syncing with a computer is definitely old hat. People will want to run it from an app on their phone. Personally I'd think the right app with a strong protective case and super strength velcro strap to attach a phone to the shin (maybe a £40 Android burner) could produce some sort of interesting data. That £40 phone is what you're really competing with, plus that can go in a drone etc etc.
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| Quote: |
a multi axis gyroscopic, acelerometer & magnetometer for £80 snap the guys hand off, even if it doesn't work it is about a 10th of the price of the cheapest of these systems used in movement testing for sports and medical situations
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I've found a development package for about 20 quid in single quantities that combines those sensors, bluetooth le, and coin cell power with sample phone app code seemingly available.
The magic is of course in the ease of use and clarity of the software...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think a lot of us are having difficulty visualising what this product does and therefore how it helps improve technique. I would suggest producing a good quality video of the product in action showing what it does and how that helps the skier improve.
I'm very uneasy about marketing this on ACL injury prevention. You're going to have to be able to back those claims up with some credible data. I've seen 3 ACL injuries happen, poor technique wasn't a contributing factor in any of them.
Better to market the device on technique improvement, that's what thousands of skiers are trying to achieve after all.
Knee braces have been mentioned above as the only way to protect ACL, I wouldn't agree with that. Working on the mussles around the knee will decrease the likelihood of ACL injury. Certainly should be part of recovery from an ACL injury, rather than just opt for a knee brace.
Knee braces can protect you from knee injury, but can lead to other injury. I was skiing with a lady in April, who had had an ACL injury previously so was wearing a brace. She had a twisty fall caused by heavy slushy conditions, the brace stopped her knee from failing, the result a compound leg fracture just above the knee and an eight hour operation to screw it all back together.
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FAQ
