Conclusion
"Although the impact on survival is smaller than previously reported, these results confirm the effectiveness of airbags. Non-deployment remains the most considerable limitation to effectiveness. Development of standardized data collection protocols is encouraged to facilitate further research"
Also known as: "Pull the bag, Rabbit" .
Cue mutterings "your money is much better spent doing a snow awareness course".
Generally from peps wearing ABS who have done a course and understand that they are better off with a handle to pull when their word turns to turd.
Discuss.
[P.s. marks WILL be deducted for taking it out on the OP]
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
mishmash, so if I don't pull the handle the bag won't help me? Damn, who would have thought that?
As far as taking an avalanche awareness course is concerned: Good idea, but it's worth remembering that an awful lot of those that got buried were experts...
mishmash, so if I don't pull the handle the bag won't help me? Damn, who would have thought that?
"Overall non-inflation rate is 20%, 60% of which is attributed to deployment failure by the user."
12% or 1 in 8 of the people wearing them didn't think of that !
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Steilhang wrote:
mishmash, so if I don't pull the handle the bag won't help me? Damn, who would have thought that?
Unfortunately I can only see the abstract, so I can't make head nor tail of this, but a more interesting question might be: does the bag actually increase your risk in that circumstance, because perhaps you're more likely to put yourself in harm's way.
mishmash, so if I don't pull the handle the bag won't help me? Damn, who would have thought that?
It's worse than that, just having one on, will increase your risk of getting whacked, if it makes you even a tiny bit braver. It's hard not to be influenced.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
There are links to lots of informative stuff here.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Piecemeal linking single studies doesn't demonstrate anything. For example risk taking in amateur rugby players due to wearing head gear when making pretend tackles doesn't go up. So what does that say about skiers using airbags? Nothing.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
You really can't see ANY parallels?
That when using [some protective equipment] in [a sport], the risk taking didn't change when [a circumstance that could cause injury was encountered] ?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
feef, the point is the lack of data. You can form a hypothesis that it might hold true in other circumstances. It doesn't automatically follow that it does. You're just demonstrating a crucial lack of understanding of what the results of that study actually show. It's the fallacy of hasty generalisation. The data in the study is specific to the sample population only and until further research is conducted connecting it to a completely separate, unstudied population is just silly. Even with a similar group in the same context.
That study doesn't even measure real conditions, it just assumes the test conditions are equivalent.
TLDR; the conclusion you lead with when linking the study is not actually supported by the study itself. It's weight of evidence not any single study that demonstrates something to be true. For something as broad as the concept of risk compensation I'd expect the answer is not a binary yes or no but dependent on context.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
How do these risks, in this report, compare in size to those from driving to the slopes?
Personally I do my best to keep off slopes which are going to slide. So I've seen many slides, but I'm not in these statistics.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
feef wrote:
You really can't see ANY parallels?
That when using [some protective equipment] in [a sport], the risk taking didn't change when [a circumstance that could cause injury was encountered] ?
I can see some parallels but the context of Avalanche Airbags overrides Rugby Helmets - that is to say in adult rugby , the player's expectation must be to have multiple points of physical contact of which his Personal Protection Equipment will afford him some assistance and for which we have a long history of contact Sport PPE - shin guards, cricket pads and boxes, gum shields.
The off-piste skier is more akin to the freefall sport Parachutist or Skydiver whose expectation or hope is to NEVER deploy his reserve parachute or airbag in his whole lifetime.
I thought the most interesting aspect of this latest study was the huge and unexpected quantum of non deployed airbags - in skydiving there is (or was - its been a long time for me) a lot of weight attached to practising the movements associated with reserve deployment and the conditions that would merit a deployment. My personal conclusion is that when I ski with an airbag I should take care to check that it is a) in the correct operating position b) I can physically locate/touch grab all handles and c) I have run through in my mind the actions and scenarios of pulling the handle. And that gets added to my "pre-flight" check list when I do my transceiver and gear check.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Always surprised by the number of ABS users who ski without the handles, even off piste. Or who undo the strap "at the dodgy bit of the slope". They've obviously been on a course........
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
gilo wrote:
Always surprised by the number of ABS users who ski without the handles, even off piste. Or who undo the strap "at the dodgy bit of the slope". They've obviously been on a course........
Couple of victims have (apparently) been found in chamonix where the chest strap had ridden up and strangled them.
Need to engage the crotch strap at all times....
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Couple of victims have (apparently) been found in chamonix where the chest strap had ridden up and strangled them.
Need to engage the crotch strap at all times....
One word of caution though, if you cinch up all the straps to store your ABS over the summer make sure you extend the nappy strap to the appropriate length before you get on the first chairlift of the winter. I've never had a more uncomfortable ride
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar wrote:
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Couple of victims have (apparently) been found in chamonix where the chest strap had ridden up and strangled them.
Need to engage the crotch strap at all times....
One word of caution though, if you cinch up all the straps to store your ABS over the summer make sure you extend the nappy strap to the appropriate length before you get on the first chairlift of the winter. I've never had a more uncomfortable ride
Basically a version of this but doing it to yourself?
I know that with my bag I regularly practice grabbing the handle while skiing immediately the thought pops into my head. The only time I thought that I may have to deploy it was when a small localised slab slid and took my feet from under me. I had observed the crack open in the snow and my hand was firmly gripping the handle even before I hit the deck.
I've witnessed a skier that was caught in a decent size avalanche and didn't pull the trigger. Talking to them afterwards it seemed that they tried to pull the trigger put couldn't locate it as the air bag was sitting high/loose which meant that the trigger was farther back. They didn't have a crotch strap so this could have been a factor.
I ski with an airbag on a daily basis in the winter and I'm glad to wear one. Does it affect my judgement?
I don't believe it does. This would certainly would've been different 15 years ago when I was far more naive in the mountains and wanted to straight line everything. With the combination of courses and experience the airbag is a great backup that if something is missed or overlooked at least there's a chance of being on the surface.
Remote triggers .. Where a member of your party carries a device which activates the bag... This covers all the failings to pull by the wearer and also gives the opportunity to really wee wee your friend off either in a gondola / bar or toilet
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I've quite often failed to pull on skiing holidays.
After all it is free
After all it is free
mishmash, Thanks for the link, anyone got a link to the full report? Always makes me grin when people charge for this type of report.
Agree on the crotch strap issue, they are a bit of a pain to use, especially with a harness as well, but are pretty much essential and all airbags should have one. I would be surprised if there are some on the market without the crotch strap
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
livetoski, I can't get access, even through my University IP address which normally gets past all of the paywalls (as the Uni pays for subscriptions). It's a fairly low profile journal, hence I guess the University haven't added it to the ones they're willing to pay for. Unfortunately these paywalls are the norm for many medical and scientific journals. When we publish articles we pay an "open access" fee that makes it available to anyone. Typically this comes in at £2000-4000 per article!
Having said all of that, I don't think what this article is saying regarding failure to pull is particularly new. I recall highlighting it in a blog I wrote a couple of years ago- I'll not post a link in case I'm accused of spamming! And we'll never really be able to robustly quantify how effective airbags are unless somebody does a prospective study, which let's face it, is very unlikely to happen; it would be expensive and avalanche fatalities are small beer in terms of all cause mortality, even of young fit people. I can't see any national research council paying for it (maybe the Swiss??). These retrospective studies are always problematic to interpret, largely due to things like reporting bias, but I think the strong balance of evidence, now from several studies, is that airbags have a protective effect- it's just difficult to say how big.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Pascal Haegeli's 2012 report on effectiveness of avalanche airbags in Canada
OD, I've added the link to the resource page above. Thanks.
As an aside, when I'm wearing a harness I tend to clip the harness with a carabiner to the waist strap of my abs rucksack, I guess this won't do instead of a crouch strap.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
OD, Useful. And the second paragraph of the discussion summarises the reporting bias problem very nicely.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
jbob wrote:
OD, I've added the link to the resource page above. Thanks.
As an aside, when I'm wearing a harness I tend to clip the harness with a carabiner to the waist strap of my abs rucksack, I guess this won't do instead of a crouch strap.
Looking at my bag (RAS 22), the end of the crotch-strap is attached to the bottom of the back-pad of the bag. Assuming the strap is fixed tightly () the bag will not ride up a whole lot, so there's no risk of strangulation. If you clip the waist strap to your harness, the bag could conceivably ride up too high before the whole system went taut. Stick your bag on, and get someone to try and lift you up by it, and see which bit of you gets squashed first?
You might do better off using the carabiner to attach the bottom of the shoulder strap directly to the waist of your harness, if that makes any sense. It isn't like that connection needs to withstand the sort of forces that a climbing lead fall would generate, so you don't need to use the belay loop...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Serriadh, I sort of figured that it wasn't a 100%, I also put my transceiver in a pocket after breaking a rib on it. I'll defiantly check out the shoulder strap idea, although once I start thinking it's not going to work I'm more likely to do it properly. And before anyone says anything about the transceiver I have upgraded to a pulse and intend to strap it on this winter, at least until I break another rib.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
jbob wrote:
OD,
As an aside, when I'm wearing a harness I tend to clip the harness with a carabiner to the waist strap of my abs rucksack, I guess this won't do instead of a crouch strap.
I have always used crabs to secure the crotch strap , much more sensible for "slack country" skiing. But my main network is mainly chairs...
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Poster: A snowHead
