Business - French Alps

A snowHead

Was wondering if anyone would like to weigh in with their experiences of business that work, and business that don't work in the alps? I'm more interested in experience than opinion here.

We're moving to Haute Savoie, France next year as my Mrs will be starting a new job in Geneva. Ofc as a snow junkie I'm am literally drooling at the opportunity!

Plan is to either buy a business or start from scratch, and although I have a few idea already, it would be interesting to hear what some other have to say.

A snowHead

Using the Forum Search function (top of the page next to user facilities) this is the most recent thread on your subject.
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2525694&

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Yea that was the 1st one I cam across when I was doing a bit of searching over the last few days on here. Those guys have an idea and want to discuss its' feasibility.

Plus, whilst I agree that Ski through KFCs and mobile call girls would be gold mines, I was hoping for a few more constructive comments.

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BossCH, that thread might have produced some more constructive comments if it hadn't been so vague. How can you discuss the feasibility of an undefined idea? There are quite a few Snowheads who live and work successfully in the Alps. If you say a bit more about your qualifications, skills (including languages) and experience you might get some more sensible responses. Some catered chalets are successful, some are a disaster, for example. Some restaurants are a success, some bomb. I have had examples of each within 50 yards of my apartment - two restaurants with four different lots of proprietors, all French. One of the successes was run by a local who sold it at a high price to a Frenchman who did everything wrong. He was not "du coin" but that was not IMV the primary reason for his failure; the cousin of the successful proprietor ran her own restaurant which bombed too. The two failures were due to entirely different reasons - one was too ambitious, borrowed money to enlarge the place, a job he did himself, cheaply and badly, and paid a cook. Overweening ambition and little or no restaurant experience. His first action was to put up all the prices and he made the fatal mistake of not getting to know his customers. The other failure was a lack of any ambition at all - the opposite. Husband and wife team, low overheads. Good food, friendly welcome (albeit not one single word of English) but poor marketing and couldn't be bothered to change the tatty posters which had been on the wall for at least (to my personal knowledge) eight years.

There is now just one restaurant. A young local couple bought the other and developed a modern, high-spec gite, and are letting it at a high price. But he also works (middle-mountain guide, ski instructor) and she has one small child, second on way. The husband, and his brothers and the wife's father, who lives in Paris but spent weeks down on the site doing some heavy excavating and labouring, did a very large amount of the work themselves though it must have still cost them quite a bit of money. I watched him, from my terrace, beer in hand (mine, not his) working on the roof last summer, in very high temperatures, just at weekends and in the evenings and admired his skills and determination (not to mention his lithe and athletic figure....) They didn't pay other people and the same is true of the one successful family-run restaurant we have left.

How much time would your wife be willing to spend commuting?

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Thanks Pam w. Yea its not the easiest of things to put into words.

Well my background is i'm a commercial manager for a construction company so good with the financial side of things, but i'm ready to move away form that now. Outside of that i'm quite a creative cook and I'm good with my hand (i've developed a bit of a hobby for woodwork), and i've been lucky enough to have a family that went on 2 ski holidays a year since I was a toddler, so i'm fanatical about skiing.

I've been through the basic ideas of Ski Hire shops and a Chalet Business, and i know a variety of factors result in them being successful or not, but i'm really just looking for some inspiration for other things that people who live in the alps do. I've also done a bit of research on the idea of food/sandwich vans and apparently the red tape is especially bad, although I know in France in general it can be a pain for most things.

The other plan is to buy a place and do a bit of property development during the summer/s with the view to eventually rent it out or sell it on (gotta find some use for the construction background), but i'm also keen to look at other options.

My French at 18 was very good at a conversational level, but 15 years of neglect takes you back a couple of steps so we're currently getting lesson and have been for a few months, but getting my French to a decent standard is important to me.

She'd be happy to commute up to 60 to 90 mins each way. I'd also be the same as it's what we've been doing for several years now anyway.

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I think Pam has it spot on, it is the person that is the most important factor in any business. Ok after that there has to be a modicum of potential but some of the most far out businesses work and good solid businesses run into the ground.

Property in the Alps is still very expensive and near the crest of a long boom, I'm not sure the returns on something requiring a substantial real estate investment are really there.

>> How much time would your wife be willing to spend commuting?
> She'd be happy to commute up to 60 to 90 mins each way.

good, that should just about get her over the border into Geneva Happy

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Being serious, the businesses that I have seen succeed in the Alps have been simple ones that would work anywhere.

If you can do building type work then there is always a good market for british builders in the alps - if they are good. I know Val Thorens and CMS Maintenance was run by Chris who did very well and one of the British bar owners worked for him. He had more work than he could handle, mainly from the British property owners. In the winter fixing things that broke and in the summer doing larger renovations.

I think he is doing most of his business in Paris now.

However it is a good and easy business model to replicate. Lots of paperwork with the French authorities so fluent french, or a French partner is essential.

Not much time for skiing though.

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emwmarine, beat me to it. As an English Property owner I would like to employ an English speaking builder/property maintenance man/fixer/cleaner rather than the extortionately priced French ones in resort. I mean, €70 for an hour's cleaning?
You could start off by getting a job in this field with an existing company whilst you brush up your French/German and make contacts...

You know it makes sense.

snowyowl, not sure that an English-speaking person would charge much less than the local going rate… why would they?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

For my tuppence worth and having watched my brother go from washing wheelie bins and doing peoples gardens at 13 (he had so much work in the school holidays he had to employ our 11 year twin cousins) to running 3 business's that are successful, I have some pointers:

Get out there and take a look at the lay of the land, if you are going out with your wife then that will get a place and means you won't have to start straight away.

Work out what services or goods seems unnecessarily expensive and crunch the numbers to see if you can do do it cheaper with little overheads and outlay.

Don't fall into the trap of thinking Dog Walker, Burger Vans, T Shirt printing or any of that type of thing IE EVERYONE considers these so don't go for something obvious, the less glamorous it is then the less likely someone has thought of it.

At first, spend NOTHING, keep the cash for when you need it as no doubt you will need to invest at some point, better to have a small pot once you have experience.

Work out how hard you are prepared to work, this seems obvious but often people neglect this, are you willing to put in 45 hours per week, 75 hours per week, 100 hours per week? These are things you need to work out before you start putting any money into a business. If it is just 45 - 55 hours per week then maybe just get a job? This sounds harsh but when you have a job it's ALL profit with very little risk (in comparison), the golden goose of any start up!!

Location, location location - it's a cliche but it really is a huge advantage to get a good location, even if it's just for signage etc.

Good luck and I can't wait to hear what you decide to do.

A snowHead

The high handover/inventory/cleaning charges reflect the fact that people willing and able to work hard and fast to clean apartments - ovens, microwaves, etc - are all likely to be busy on Saturdays, which is when the majority of French handovers take place. A skilled and reliable building repairs/maintenance company would do very well, I'd have thought, but as noted above, would need local partners. As someone who has had to swot up French plumbing vocabulary in order to explain a problem, on the phone, to an (albeit charming and, as it turned out, very good-looking) French plumber, I would keep the telephone number of a bilingual company (even with ugly plumbers...) on my noticeboard.

A snowHead

Very good point by davidhammy about working hard. As I said earlier Chris worked incredibly hard all year round.

If you look at the people who do our maintenance now as well as cleaning and key holding then they work their nuts off. We have phoned Nicole up at 10.00 pm UK time having had a tenant phone up about a tap leaking that needed to be sorted then and there.

Changover days are long and hard.

They manage to sneak a little skiing in here and there but you would get more by taking a couple of holidays each year.

However, they do very well out of it. Starting up would be difficult. You would have to convince people that you were good at whatever service you provide and also reliable.

But my advice still stands. Choose something simple, that lots of people need and do it better than others.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Serriadh, It's a lick and a promise which is why I think it's overpriced. €70 for a good thorough clean such as the one I do when we leave which takes 2 hours including bed making would be OK I suppose... but the cleaners are employed by our agent...we complain now and again when it gets too bad but it does no good. Our flat is often not let for consecutive weeks so there is no need to do it on changeover day either.

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+1, davidhammy,

Although, tbh, if you are going to have to work more than 45 hours and don't like that idea, get a job.

Do something that you can do from anywhere. Your wife's job might not last forever and you might find yourselves having to un-emigrate.

€70 for an hours cleaning? Someone's ripping someone off. Going rate for cleaners of English or French persuasion in Chamonix is €10-15/ hour.

Be aware that French bureaucracy for being in business is a total nightmare. Switzerland has its own surprises but is about as rational as the UK. France is not. At all.

Conversely, if you are thinking of doing a building trade, in France, legally, you are required in some cases to hold local guild qualifications and do a basic business course run by the chamber of commerce. You would also need decennale insurance and those are things that estate agents like to see pursuant to a sale so are not to be ignored.

Switzerland seems easier for a trade other than electrician (maybe plumber too) and we know at least one general "small" builder who seems to do OK.

If you like property, our experience is that Geneva estate agents are abysmal. You'd need to get your head round the law, might face considerable heat, but the competition are more or less talentless and expensive.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

My apartment costs 60€ for cleaning, making beds, and doing most of the laundry in the apartment. It takes around 2 hours when I do it myself. Includes cleaning windows mirrors bathroom and making sure guests have left kitchen and oven clean and fridge emptied. Uk friend who is a carpenter had to do an artisan course locally.

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miranda, pam w, it's not clear that the €70/ hour is to an agency. Although that makes it entirely plausible.

I do take your points though. But I'm unconvinced though that given Chamonix's year round relative cost of living that it's going to be any cheaper than anywhere else in Haute or not Savoie to find a regular, year round cleaner who can be really relied on.

But I do see how it might be very hard to find one at any price if I'm not contradicting myself (!) (I am...)

We pay €60 odd for each of our 2 bed apartments. About 2 hours thorough cleaning plus an hour or so ironing with a pressure iron. More or less.

under a new name, I suppose Chamonix is one of those places which attracts the young and impecunious who are happy to do a long day on a Saturday - probably in numbers greater than can be found in larger numbers than in a lot of more traditional resorts - and you can live pretty cheaply in a hostel, subsisting mainly on baguettes. Or so my niece assures me.

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pam w, i am led to believe that you can, but taht's not the situation our changeover staff are in. Permanent residents, etc.

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davidhammy great advise all round and the plan is to participate on Snow heads as the general advice here has helped me out a few times in the past. I'm also going to start a blog which i'll link at a later date if you're interested in following things that are happening.

In terms of hours work, i've worked in the Oil and Gas industry for the past 5 years in Australia putting in 90-100 hour weeks at times, all in the name of making someone else very rich. So i'm keen to make something of my own. Even if I have to kill myself week in, week out to make it turn a very small margin, at least it will be mine Smile

But i'd love to get a morning's skiing in once or twice a week in the winter.

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I was quite keen but she wasn't so impressed on the potential -30 degree days so we agreed on the Alps.

You know it makes sense.

BossCH,

Yeah but they aren't that frequent. its a dry cold and the summers are often great.

Course Calgary is great, but I wouldn't be tempted by Fort mac

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

BossCH, do you have EU citizenship? TBH, if Mrs B is working 9-5, M-F in Geneva, you might find it simply easier to get a job in that neck of the woods or consider some form of business that's not directly related to tourism.

I was quite serious about estate agency. I know that you need qualifications if you want to do that in canton Vaud but I don't think you need to to do so in Geneva.

Property management in resort might be a thought, especially for the non-French market. Property project management, if you can swing it, might also be interesting - again, for the non-French. Our experience of local project management is generally poor.

I would submit that if you're living in resort, Mrs B might get a little tired of the morning commute. Sister-in-law commutes from Chamonix and does not enjoy that. Some friends weekend in Cham but have pieds-a-terre in Geneva.

A snowHead

I am by no means a business expert but we run a company in the alps quite happily and whilst we might never be rich, we certainly earn enough to pay the mortguage comfortably.

As Pam says, over the years we have seen a fair chunk of businesses come and go so my suggestions would be:

- Get real life hands-on experience in whatever you decide to do before you go it alone - even if that means taking a few years to learn a new trade. You wouldn't start a construction company with no construction experience, so why would you start a cleaning company with no professional cleaning experience. Get a job for a season changeover cleaning first.

- It is harder running a business abroad than it is in your own home country. If you wouldn't feel confident running a small hotel in London, don't start a chalet company in the alps. Get some experience first.

-Language skills are vital. Reading a contract, or calling a plumber is not the same as ordering a beer. Think carefully about how you would feel about buying something in the UK from someone with your equivilant level of language. What would you be willing to buy? What wouldn't you? Would you trust the food hygiene of someone who can't read food hygiene documents? Would everyone you know? How will you sell alcohol if you don't have enough french to get an alcohol license? You can get around these issues with translators etc but that is expensive and ultimately there is no substitute for learning for yourself.
Even then it's difficult - my french is good enough to go to a dinner party or to read a newspaper but not to do a crossword and yet when I've done holiday sales in French (for self catered apts with french/english marketing- not our company) there is a measurably lower conversion rate than for english-language sales because it's not my first language.

- There is a lot of paperwork/red tape/regulation in both France and Switzeland - and even more so if you are doing something cross-boarder with UK registration etc. There is no point in getting frustrated or trying to fit under the radar - you just have to bit the bullet and do it. For a settled, comfortable, prosperous business you need to be sure that you are legal in all countries where you work.

- If your aim is to have more ski time, don't start a winter business. Whilst you might get plenty of daytime time off when working as a barman/chalet host/cleaner/driver etc you don't get a lot of daytime time off when working as the bar owner/company manager/office bod. Ski instructor is the worst job on the mountain for ski time if by ski time you mean skiing for yourself.

- Don't buy a business unless what you are being sold is something you couldn't build yourself. Limited licenses (eg spirits)/patented goods/unique selling point etc are all in my view a really good investment.

Good luck!

A snowHead

under a new name, Yea we're both English. Property project management sounds like it might be of interest. In terms of the commute, we will probably aim to live somewhere around Bonneville/Anncey, and when we lived in the UK she used to be happy to do a 90 to 120 min commute each way every day so she pushing to live further from, rather than close to, Geneva.

Snow and Sunshine, Some good words of wisdom there. Thanks.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Thanks for the comments above. We are using a French letting agent who employ the cleaners in Les Arcs. There seems to be a cartel in operation there, all the agents take a similar cut/fee - and they all charge the ame for cleaning - even just for key holding the cost is quite high and then we'd have the hassle of changeover cleaning and maintenance. We live 800 miles away - not ideal when the plumbing is leaking..All we can really do is insist on value for money. Next season hope to spend more time there as will no longer be tied to school holidays.....this should mean that we do the maintenance ourselves at least.

I have often thought that running an English Tea Shop in a ski resort might work.. Irish pubs work after all. Ski in the morning, bake in the early afternoon and open at 3pm for post ski tea. Even do high tea for kids... Everyone loves cake!

Maybe I'll do that....

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BossCH, be aware that the Bardonnex norder post can be a right pain with 11-12km tailbacks heading in to Geneva from about 07h00 onwards. I.e. from Annecy, etc.

I wil suggest that wasting 90-120 minutes each way sounds like a nightmare when there are massively easy and appealing alternatives. (Annecy not bad). Does she like sitting in traffic? I mean, FFS, you could just about commute from central London to Geneva quicker than that.

And remember that for much of the winter typically that will be in the dark from start to finish and probably on icy roads, easily possibly in snow storms and with a reduced because of pollution speed limit.

Not. My. Idea. Of. Fun.

Surely a move like this is all about quality of life and that doesn't just mean skiing.

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snowyowl, I think Pam has it right on tea shops.

Cleaning costs sound about right if you're using agency, seems like a typical experience and costs.

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under a new name, I've travelled to GVA airport at that time of the day for a weekday flight, won't do it again, we caught it by the skin of our teeth.

After all it is free

under a new name, Thanks for the words of warning but we're not going to commit to anything that's obscene by blindly buying a house in Chammonix and hoping for the best. We'll trial a few things, rent somewhere and then make an informed decision.

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BossCH, not suggesting you would. Rent somewhere you like, work out what you really want over time. Defo.

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Business - French Alps

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