Moving to the Mountains............ But where?

A snowHead

Hi Everyone

I work offshore so am lucky enough to be able to live anywhere as long as I'm within a couple of hours of a major airport and my partner and I love the mountains so we're trying to decide where to make a permanent move to.

We also have a 3 year old son so his future prospects are very important. The Germanic speaking countries seem to have the strongest future prospects for him. My partner and I speak passable French and wouldn't mind the challenge of learning German.

My partner is a secondary school English teacher - so could potentially work in the education system or look at starting a small business but it's vital that she doesn't feel too isolated when I have to work away for a month at a time.

So the question is where would you live in or near the mountains and why if you had to take into account future prospects for your kids as well as wanting to be near the mountains?

A snowHead

Powderpete, if your son shows any inclination towards engineering there are huge opportunities in Germany. My eldest - an engineer - would love to work in Germany (not least to bring his 3 kids up bilingual) and speaks a fair bit of German already, but his wife won't hear of it, unfortunately.

You will, of course, have to hope that all those dopey UKIP voters don't end up having us out of the EU! wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Very true Pam

My boy seems to have a natural ability at pulling things apart and seeing how they work so maybe a future engineer - I wish I could put most of it back together though!

Austria, Germany or Switzerland always seem to do well on the quality of living surveys so definitely what is attracting us.

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Tricky to buy in Switzerland - that's one bit of the EU they don't subscribe to. Germany much easier I expect. You could try the outskirts of Munich - big city stuff and spitting distance from lots of resorts and you can see the mountains from the top of a church spire in Munich centre.

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As somewhere to live year round, with stuff to do other than just skiing, it's hard to look past Innsbruck tbh. Decent sized city, surrounded by mountains, lots of great skiing, biking, hiking, kayaking, paragliding, etc. Got it's own airport, and 2-3 hours to Munich airport too. The Austrians are pretty keen on native speakers for school language lessons so your wife should have plenty of work opportunities (teachers here also only have to be in school for 24 hours a week, whilst getting a full time salary to include planning time). There's also quite a lot of Americans (and a few Brits, and other nationalities who speak better English than German) living here too if lack of German makes socialising an issue, though I haven't had that problem. There are also opportunities to educate your kids in English if they struggle with school in German; an American friend of mine's son goes to an English-speaking school, while their daughter goes to normal Austrian school (the son was older when they moved so didn't pick up German as well). There's also a university if you're thinking that far ahead... (and a lot of engineering jobs too).

I think it would be hard to design a better place to live tbh; great sport opportunities, great study/work opportunities, enough shops and 'city stuff' to not get 'cabin fever.'

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Innsbruck does sound good - far preferable to Munich, I reckon though my view of the latter is unreasonably jaundiced by a stay in possibly the most unfriendly youth hostel in the world, run by a man who was like a caricature of an authoritarian German. Laughing

The important thing would be the German language, rather than actually living in Germany, given that your son is only three!! Ideal age - he would be effectively bilingual. Lucky boy.

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I loved my time in Munich and love southern Germany. Have a look at the Munich schnellbahnnetz (s-bahn regional commuter rail) on the south side. Munich airport is to the north side so one end of the network to the other is about 1:30. South will allow you to get to the mountains easier and there are loads of smaller places on the network which have their own little communities. I lived in Erding and had a great life.

After all it is free

Powderpete, quite a large English-speaking/Ex-Pat community in and around Munich, but be warned getting teaching jobs in the public system is nigh on impossible. The best bet for your partner would be to pick up some TEFL qualifications and work as an English teacher, either in the adult learner sector or for one of the many Language schools. There are jobs in one of the 2 International Schools, but friends who have worked in these have spoken about problems with the management and the lack of long term contracts. They do have quite a high turnover of staff outside of management and long term core group.

Munich itself is very expensive, both to rent or to buy. Rentals within the city average 14 - 16 Euro per square metre (some areas way more but very few that are cheaper) and buying anywhere within the S-/U-Bahn area is also fairly outrageous. However the flats are usually purpose built, spacious and have certain added extras by law (cellars, laundry/drying rooms that sort of thing). There is a very reputable rental agency called Mr. Lodge (http://www.mrlodge.com/) that comes highly recommended for the initial set up. They have a huge range of apartments (furnished and unfurnished) and are used by most of the multinationals for short term leases. My own company use them as well for our overseas engineers when they are based here for more than a couple of days.

I would initially advise renting in either Germany or Austria before you buy. It allows you to actually get a feel for the country and culture before committing to a purchase.It also enables you to find out more about the areas that you would prefer to live in. The housing market is nothing like that in the UK and it can take ages to find the right place. Similarly if you buy and you and your partner find it is not to your liking, it can be very hard to sell.

The other thing is to see which airports in both Germany and Austria actually have regular all year round flights to wherever you need to be. Both Salzburg and Innsbruck for example have good links in winter but totally different flight patterns in the summer months.

I've been here for nearly 20 years now and love it, but it is not for everyone. The language is one problem and the culture, while superficially similar to the UK, is also not to everyone's tastes. I speak and read German fluently (writing is is long way behind because I rarely have to use it) and I'm still caught out sometimes. The bureaucracy seems to be self-perpetuating and you invariably turn up without one piece of the required papers, meaning you have to come back again! But if you work with it rather than fighting against it it actually works for you in an odd sort of way. The schools are excellent, childcare set up second to none and the health care (despite the locals moaning their heads off about cuts and shortages) is superb. As a tenant you have lots of protection and guaranteed rights once you have a place, even the fixed-term tenancy agreements.

If you have any questions there are several of us who live and work here (Bavaria, Salzburgerland and Tirol) all year round who can possibly answer any of your questions. I live way out of town by the way and only pay 5.5 Euro per square metre! wink

Munich is eye wateringly expensive although the SE UK has done a good job catching up. Things have changed but some of the outlying villages on the S-bahn network are a bit... well Deliverance if you know what I mean. Personally I wouldn't live there unless I worked there. The French Alps is an option but missus will find it very hard to get a teaching job - it is harder than becoming a ski instructor for an English speaker. However good airline connections with Geneva and Lyon in the Northern Alps. A lot of BA pilots live here. School system might be hard for the kids - lots of wrote learning and French will be hard for them; even the English kids born in France have some issues.

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davidof, I know of a couple of English teachers working in French schools but not in the Alps.

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From what clarky999 said a job as a teacher of English in Innsbruck might be on the cards - and having a "proper" job would make it so much easier to settle into the local scene and (assuming the institution was basically German speaking) a great way to pick up the language too. If the job itself didn't require high level German skills it would hardly matter if this took a while - after all, how many Brits living in Britain speak or write English well enough to get a job where language ability is crucial? Many of the secondary school children my daughter teaches can't produce a decent sentence unaided.

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Thanks for the comprehensive reply Sue. You're right about the flight schedules - So my search area would be within a few hours of Geneva, Zurich, Munich, Milan or Turin.

We're definitely agree on renting before buying for a decent period of time. I've recently experienced the difficulty in selling a small place in Chamonix. It was bought in haste and then took 3 years to sell after we realised it was far too small.

Can I ask why finding jobs in the public sector would be so difficult? Also how easy do you think it would be for my partner to find work in the adult learner sector preferably in the Salzburgerland or Tirol areas?- I presume you mean private lessons? or language schools? It's actually something we've done before having lived in Japan - but the irregularity and cash in hand nature of most of the work meant it was frustrating at times.

I think on the language and culture front that we'll have to do our best to fit in where ever we end up.

Would jumping through the hoops to gain permanent residency in Switzerland be worth the hassle I wonder? I'm guessing that at the end of it there wouldn't be any restrictions in owning a property then chocksaway?

Munich is a lovely city and Samerberg looks very well connected but with no restrictions I think living a little closer to the mountains would be a more what we are looking for.

Where else would people live if they had the choice with a 3 year old and they were thinking about lifestyle and the kids future as well?

Thanks for the French Alps suggestion Davidof but from the research I've done Austria, Switzerland, Germany seem to have better education systems and possibly stronger economies for the nipper in the future.

Your thoughts are the same as ours Paw in regards to ideally starting in some kind of school so my partner could build up the language skills and then possibly some time in the future possibly start her own business.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Hmm. There are some good places to live and ski within reach of Turin but Italian - though I love it and am trying to learn it - is nothing like as useful as German would be (and the area round Geneva is very French-speaking) and the overall financial and governmental crisis in Italy shows no sign of a very early resolution (one of my sons has just got his Ph D in robotics in the Italian Institute of Technology in Genoa but there is little going on for him to move on to, in northern Italy, though he's desperate, for personal reasons, to stay there if possible). You'd probably learn Italian faster than you'd learn German because there's far less English spoken - you'd have no choice!

How often would you have to fly? If you can avoid the busiest times Innsbruck - Munich wouldn't be impossible a few times a year, though I guess it would become a chore of you had to fly a lot.

But any second language is a boon and experience of living in other cultures (even if you remain a bit of an "expat") very valuable - your son will benefit wherever you go.

If I were looking at your situation I think I'd put the chances of my wife getting a fulfilling job and "belonging" to an institution, rather than just being free-lance, very near the top of my wish list.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Summer flights aren't too bad from Innsbruck; Easyjet fly to London two or three times a week (usually pretty cheaply), and I'm sure others do too. I guess it depends on if it's the right days though.

This is a list of current teaching vacancies in Tirol, with lots of English teaching openings (only one specifically asking for a native speaker, but lots of people have told me recently about demand is really high at present): http://www.lsr-t.gv.at/sites/lsr.tsn.at/files/upload_lsr/Gesamt_Hauptausschreibung201415Tirol.pdf

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davidof, thanks for that. The tot has a French mum I think doesn't he? But is he in an international school anyway?

Sorry Pete - quick question for davidof then I'll leave your thread alone!

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After all it is free

From what everyone is saying it seems to echo my thoughts on German speaking countries so Austria, Germany or Switzerland then for future prospects.

PamW I'd have to fly approximately once a month to some part of the world so a well connected international airport year round is a must. So again probably Munich, Geneva or Zurich within a few hours radius.

quinton Yeah your right and echoing my own thoughts and experiences with smaller mountain communities and so probably why the larger places are probably a safer bet for my partners and sons sanity.
erberg
clarky999 Thanks for the link Matt. There seems to be a number of jobs as you say though from a PM that Samerberg Sue a while ago to my girlfriend I believe you need The ministry of education in Vienna to recognise your qualifications first. I've no idea how difficult that would be?

Powderpete, as you only need an airport it might be worthwhile basing where you live on where your partner can get a job. I'd be spending my time keeping an eye on the overseas secondary English jobs on the TES website, most will be international schools. Then applying for the ones that have the magic formula of not being too far from an airport or the mountains.

The bonus of waiting until your partner gets a job with an international school is that some will help with relocation arrangements/costs for the right person. A lot of international secondary schools will have a neighbouring/sister primary school that your little one would be able to go to (again with lower/no fees for staff members children).

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It is nigh on impossible for native German teachers trained in other Bundesländer to get jobs down here let alone people trained abroad. I have a good friend who trained in Hessen after university (she got a double first in English and French). She also got the highest grades in her State exams in Hessen, but Bavaria did not want to know. They only take on their own student teachers if they pass their final exams with grades of 1.8 or higher! She now teaches at the TU (university), teaching non-German speakers to write their essays in good academic German. I did get "Anerkenung" and taught for 4 years in a Bavarian Gymnasium up to Arbitur level, but I left because the system was grinding me down it was so hidebound and out of touch with reality.

Teaching in a language school can be as an employee or more commonly, as a self-employed freelancer. Working in the adult (public) sector is also usually on a freelance basis. Depending on the age range that your partner teaches in the UK, there is a quite a burgeoning market for teaching early learning of English. For adult education or language schools, experience is preferred &/or something like a CELTA/DELTA training (Certificate of English Language Teaching to Adults, the D is for Diploma and is a higher level training). CELTA is awarded by the University of Cambridge and very highly thought of internationally. There are also other certificates (Trinity House/Royal Society), for example, but the Cambridge ones are more commonly asked for and accepted.

I've also investigated teaching in Tirol (just 6 Kms down the mountain from me) and have also been told what Clarky999 says about the preference for native speakers. However the reality is that unless you speak German to quite a high level, they are not prepared to offer you positions teaching any exam classes. The level of English of Austrians coming out of their own system is exceptionally high and they do know how the system works. You have to apply directly to the Bezirk authorities (Local councils) and they have to ensure that your qualifications are comparable and recognised. It is a long-winded affair to be honest, I've been through it so I do know how it works. My qualifications and references were translated and recognised by the Ministry of Education in Vienna, but they still said that the locals will have to submit them again. Don't ask me why though!

You have not said where it is you need to fly to with your job. You say it is offshore, do you mean in the oil industry? If you do then regular flights from a major airport are more what you need to be honest. Munich is one such node, Vienna and Zurich are the others. Innsbruck and Salzburg have excellent links to the UK but not always to major hubs, so it could involve multiple flights and the added time and cost, of course.

If your partner does not have to work then it is a great area to live in and for a child to grow up in. There is masses of opportunities once you have a wee bit more of the language and having a child in Kindergarten learning as you do helps a lot. The job opportunities are there but getting settled and comfortable is just as important. Once you have built up a circle of friends, opportunities do open up and present themselves. People know people, that sort of thing.

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Powderpete, You've had a few votes in favour of Munich already, which I can only confirm is a great place to live. I would also take davidov's advice and avoid the German English Association, cos it is awful...
The nearest skiing is about 45 minutes down the road, depending on where you live. I live in the south near Starnberg in Würmtal, which itself is a scenic place and is only (on a good day ) 45 minutes from Garmisch. St.Anton can be reached in 2h15 ( on a good day ). What's not to like?
Learning German is easy if you insist on speaking it. The Germans will generally be tolerant and try not to speak English with you if that's what you ask them to do, but you do have to be insistent. Like davidov, I've known guys come here and not speak a word of German after ten years.
Other than that the Beer Garden culture is great... whatever you're into Munich has got it.
Can't help much on the teaching aspect, but Samerberg Sue knows her way around the German system there I think.

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Powderpete, so what to you do, and who do you work for?

I'm gainfully employed by Halliburton in the Middle East.

You know it makes sense.

Powderpete, I'm sure you know this already and your partner probably does have a PGCE, but if not.... she'll probably need a PGCE (post grad preferable to a professional grad) to be accepted to teach in a lot of countries. Teachers who trained through GTP/School Direct route can struggle to get work abroad.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Sorry i didn't take the time to read this whole thread, but I will echo what clarky999, said, innsbruck is amazing, go there! of come to me in vorarlberg (more money here wink

)

A snowHead

Powderpete, Zürich is expensive. I have a number of acquaitances who have moved there with what appeared to be higher wages but end up with considerably lower buying power than in Munich. A quick glance through Immo Scout 24 shows me that a decent 100sqm flat in Zürich is going to cost you around CHF2500-3000... which is a lot more than you would pay in Munich. Here the prices would be about €1500 for that.
The Swiss generally appear to have a problem with the influx of foreigners at the moment, they have never been particularly friendly towards foreigners at the best of times. I would not want to live there tbh.

A snowHead

There's a big international school in Ferney Voltaire, which sits on the French side of Geneva Airport. My daughter was very excited about the possibility of a job there (the pay and conditions were very good) but in the cold light of day it would have been a bad move for her OH, who is a PE teacher (and PE jobs are like gold dust in our part of the UK, as are part-time permanent teaching jobs - my daughter has given up holding out for one of those and reluctantly decided she will need to take a full-time job, after 5 years of temporary maternity-cover type work).

But Ferney-Voltaire would not be a good place to learn German! And from the little I've seen of it, it's fairly boring, though all the "attractions" of Geneva are within a stone's throw. Geneva always seems fairly boring too - but maybe that's just me, and being near a really big body of water as well as loads of mountains in two countries would be good.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

hammerite, correct, I qualified through GTP route a couple of years ago and was told that it only really covered working in schools in England and Wales if I remember correctly. However, the option remains to complete a couple of modules of an education focused Masters degree which apparently then ensures your qualification will then be accepted abroad (which includes Scotland...thought they hadn't had a vote on that yet?!)

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Powderpete, I agree with Clarky, Innsbruck if I could do what you are planning, you lucky man!

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dulcamara, what's Feldkirch like as a place to live? (I've loved visiting there). I think location wise it could fit what Powderpete is looking for, but I hear it's an expensive part of the world.

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Powderpete, I have friends in Geneva - work at CERN - their kids attend the excellent international school but Swiss schools are excellent too - scoring way above French schools in the big PISA survey. Geneva is a great place to live - the lake offers so much, you can get to so many places from it during the winter - all a quick drive away.

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Blunty, yes, we've been looking into it. The OH has a Post GCE, I'm training currently and will have a Prof GCE in a couple of months time. We'll both be ok to work in most countries, but my Prof version won't be good enough to work in say Australia (which is fine as I don't want to!). I'd have to upgrade mine to a Masters which I don't really want to think about at the moment.

That said two of the OHs friends have moved to NZ to teach and qualified through GTP, they got jobs with nice relocation packages.

After all it is free

There are a number of international schools in and around Geneva, and some are fairly flexible with regard to qualifications if you have a degree and relevant experience. The same is true of many European cities. Teach at Le Rosey and your winter campus is in Gstaad! German speaking Switzerland also has good international schools (almost all of which operate in English)

Blencathra is for sale, not so good for airports though.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cumbria-27266993

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Sorry, I know the OP doesn't want to move to France so don't want to keep derailing the thread, but just wanted to say thanks to davidof for answering my questions. I had always thought that if I were to have a child in France and put them in the local school, my concern would be their English writing skills rather than the French. My friend grew up in London with a French mother and is completely bilingual with spoken French, but there came a point when my written French was better than his (even though my spoken French was - and still is - pretty woeful) - he learnt written French entirely from school (and was at one of the top 10 ranked schools in the UK).

Something to think about as forewarned is forearmed, but I have to say it wouldn't concern me too much - as you say, so much is about the individual school, the children and the parents. That's why I wouldn't be particularly bothered by the PISA rankings - I certainly wouldn't move to France because it was a notch above the UK on that survey, nor would I consider sending my kids to Le Rosey if I had the cash to do so.

Anyway, big digression. Good luck Powderpete - very exciting position for you to be in , and will be interested to hear where you end up!

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Moving to the Mountains............ But where?

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