Adieu to the 4 Vallees ski area?

A snowHead

Verbier goes it alone, see http://www.planetski.eu/news/6116

Quote:
"The withdrawl of Verbier may just be a negotiating ploy as talks are on-going though we understand there is a deadline of June 30th. It is unclear if people will be able to buy any form of supplement to ski between the areas.
The new lift pass for Verbier Grand Ski is priced about the same as the old 4 Vallées ski pass even though the size of ski area has been slashed. This has angered some locals and regular visitors to Verbier that we have spoken to. Verbier is world-famous for its off piste but the new area would rule out skiing off the back of Mont Fort as that route ends in Siviez which is not in the new Verbier ski area. The new area stops at the bottom of the Tortin and Gentianes lift."

A snowHead

negotiating ploy seems to be the key phrase ?
i heard that the Mont Fort / Gentianes cable cars are shared between the TeleVerbier & TeleNendaz areas ?
no doubt the source of the dispute.
however would be very surprised if dummy not stuck back in and its "business as normal" by the time winter arrives.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Haggis_Trap, I think the problem is Téléveysonnaz http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/romandie/story/T-l-verbier-renonce---l-abo-4-Vall-es-13255118.

Whilst it feels like it's a high stakes power play and there's every chance that it will be resolved before winter, it's a pretty risky PR strategy. People tend to remember hearing about the break up and never hear about the reconciliation.

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Steve Sparks, that link of yours doesn't seem to work?

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Hmmm not good, have had a quick look online but cannot see where the exact problem lies. Le Nouvelliste has a short article, but my French is so bad now I am not sure I fully understand it.

From what I can see the article mentions TeleVeysonaz and Teleythyon with a dispute over Thyon 2000. It is interesting because Verbier has a 30% shareholding for Telethyon but not sure for TeleVeysonnaz.

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Would also add that Verbier has less to lose than the rest of the 4 Vallees.

I saw that Evolene was back on the Printze sector pass last season however it is another aged lift system with no direct link.

I always though that Telenendez created a lot of issues with lack of investment in their lift system however it would appear that Veysonaz with the smallest footprint has a gripe. Time will tell I guess.

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Steve Sparks, errant full stop at the end of your link

After all it is free

This link seems to work:
http://www.20min.ch/ro/news/romandie/story/Televerbier-renonce-a-l-abo-4-Vallees-13255118#talkback

I like one of the comments "en plus les pistes sont surpeuplées de skieurs anglophones qui skient qu'une fois par année et qui sont des dangers ..."

Laughing

You can take the folk out of the mountains, etc.

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under a new name, This is a local ski area for local people. No room for no tails here.

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Haggis_Trap, The problem with the Printze sector is that it is empty out of the peak weeks. Great for those of us that know wink

but difficult for the areas and businesses to re invest in themselves. Regarding busy pistes, I have had nightmares in the PDS, 3V, Austria and Domain des Sybles during half term so whilst it does not make it right, Verbier seams to be no different.

There are some really archaic lifts between Thyon and Siviez that do not help but they need to be used for any link. There are still 2 man fixed grip chairs in the Printze sector and Evolene.

This is a backwards step that does no one any favours.

^ The reason I like the Printze sector is precisely because the lifts are old and slow Wink

Keeps the punters away and doesn't feel like Switzerlands biggest interconnected ski resort ?

Bruson, for example, has certainly lost some of its charm and magic since they made it easy to get over there with the new gondola.

You know it makes sense.

Here's the TéléVerbier statement.

Chers Partenaires de Verbier, du Val de Bagnes et de la Tzoumaz,
Nous vous prions de trouver ci-joint une communication qui annonce la mise en place d'une tarification nouvelle Verbier GRAND SKI qui remplacera celle des 4-Vallées qui ne pourra plus être proposée à notre clientèle dès le prochain hiver 2014-2015, suite à la rupture de la Convention 4 Vallée par Téléveysonnaz, intervenue au 31 décembre 2012, avec effet au 30 juin 2014.
Nous regrettons profondément le fait que les 4-Vallées soient interrompues. Vous pensez bien que nous avons tout fait tout ce qui était raisonnable pour tenter de l'éviter, sans succès.
Téléverbier était ainsi disposé à prolonger la convention en vigueur pour au moins deux années supplémentaires, ce en dépit de son caractère plutôt favorable à d'autres partenaires, dont notamment Télénendaz.
D'emblée, Téléveysonnaz a justifié sa résiliation par sa volonté d'obtenir de la part de Télé-Thyon des prétentions supplémentaires par rapport à la situation actuelle liées à la Caisse de Thyon 2000. Or ces prétentions ont été l'objet d'un jugement définitif du Tribunal Cantonal du Canton du Valais, qui les a clairement rejetées en 2009. Remettant en cause cette décision pourtant passée en force, Téléveysonnaz a décidé de tenter de néanmoins forcer l'obtention de ses prétentions, y compris rétroactivement, en résiliant la Convention 4 Vallées régissant l'ensemble des relations inter-sociétés sur le périmètre et en liant son renouvellement à ce que Télé-Thyon cède à ses demandes.
En bref, Téléveysonnaz veut obtenir des avantages unilatéraux dont le fondement est pour le moins discutable de la part de Télé-Thyon, en jouant sur la menace de ne pas renouveler les 4-Vallées.
Le temps pressant pour publier les tarifs de la saison prochaine, et pour préserver le produit 4-Vallées, Téléverbier a proposé à plusieurs reprises une période transitoire pendant laquelle l'ancienne solution s'appliquerait. Ce qui donnerait le temps nécessaire à l'établissement d'une solution cohérente, équitable, globale et surtout pérenne, à l'instar de ce qui se pratique dans tous les domaines skiables qui doivent gérer de telles questions de répartitions.
Toutes les propositions - y compris celles visant simplement à garder le dialogue ouvert et à préserver le produit 4-Vallées dans l'intervalle - se sont heurtées à une position intransigeante de Téléveysonnaz qui veut recevoir ce qu'elle demande sans discussion possible.
Téléverbier ne peut traiter sur de telles bases, ni abandonner son partenaire Télé-Thyon - dont elle détient 30% du capital - ou encore accepter un nouvel accord à trois sans Télé-Thyon, ce qu'évidemment Téléveysonnaz souhaiterait.
Dans ces conditions et vu la résiliation de l'accord des 4-Vallées par Téléveysonnaz qui supprime la base du produit 4-Vallées, nous ne pourrons simplement plus le proposer à nos clients. Notre tarif se fondera en conséquence sur notre domaine propre.
Le domaine correspondant portera le nom « Verbier GRAND SKI». Ce nom traduit la valeur de notre offre, qui représente l'essentiel du domaine effectivement utilisé par notre clientèle. Le domaine couvert par Verbier GRAND SKI va de la Tzoumaz à Verbier et de Médran à Tortin en passant par les deux versants du Mont-Fort. Il s'est enrichi l'année dernière de l'accès direct à Bruson.
Téléverbier a investi 300 millions au cours des 20 dernières années pour l'équipement de son domaine, l'un des plus grands et beaux domaines européens. Nous continuerons à l'améliorer en ayant pleine confiance dans l'attrait et la valeur de notre offre pour la clientèle de Verbier.
Dans le moment particulier et difficile que nous traversons, nous tenions à vous faire part de ce message et vous demander de partager la confiance en Verbier qu'il traduit.
Nous vous tiendrons informés des développements que nous espérons encore voir prendre un tour positif.
En vous remerciant de votre confiance et votre soutien, nous vous adressons, chers partenaires, l'expression de nos sentiments les plus cordiaux.
Verbier, le 23 juin 2014

and the google translate into English(ish)

Dear Partners Verbier, Val de Bagnes and Tzoumaz
Please find attached a statement announcing the introduction of a new pricing Verbier GRAND SKI which will replace the 4-Valleys will no longer be offered to our customers as soon as next winter 2014-2015, following rupture of the Convention 4 by Téléveysonnaz Valley, which occurred on 31 December 2012 with effect from 30 June 2014.
We deeply regret the fact that the 4-Valleys are interrupted. You can imagine that we have done everything that is reasonable to try to avoid it, without success.
Téléverbier and was willing to extend the agreement in force for at least two more years, despite its rather favorable character to other partners, including Télénendaz.
From the outset, Téléveysonnaz justified his termination by his desire to obtain from Télé-Thyon additional claims with respect to the current situation related to the Fund Thyon 2000. Yet these claims were the subject of a final judgment of the Tribunal Cantonal the Canton of Valais, which clearly rejected in 2009. Challenging this decision has come into force yet, Téléveysonnaz decided nevertheless to try to force the obtaining of its claims, including retroactively, by terminating the 4 Vallées agreement governing all corporate interrelationships on the perimeter and linking renewal Télé-Thyon yield to his demands.
In short, Téléveysonnaz is seeking unilateral advantages which the foundation is at least questionable from Télé-Thyon, playing on the threat not to renew the 4 Valleys.
The pressing time to publish prices for next season, and to preserve the product 4-Valleys, Téléverbier proposed a transitional period during which the former solution would apply several times. Which would give the time necessary to establish a comprehensive and sustainable especially coherent, equitable solution, like what is practiced in all ski areas that need to manage such issues distributions.
All proposals - including those just to keep the dialogue open and to preserve the product 4-Vallées in the meantime - have faced an intransigent position Téléveysonnaz who wants to get what she wants without discussion.
Téléverbier can handle on these bases, or abandon his partner Télé-Thyon - in which it holds a 30% stake - or accept a new agreement without three Télé-Thyon, which of course would Téléveysonnaz.
In these circumstances and having regard to the termination of the agreement by the 4-Valleys Téléveysonnaz which removes the basis of the product 4-Vallées, we can simply no longer offer it to our clients. Our rates will be based accordingly on our own domain.
The corresponding field will be named "Verbier BIG SKI". This name reflects the value of our offering, which represents most of the area actually used by our customers. The scope of Verbier GRAND SKI goes from Tzoumaz Verbier and Medrano Tortin through both sides of Mont-Fort. He enriched the last year of direct access to Bruson.
Téléverbier has invested $ 300 million over the past 20 years to equip its field, one of the largest and most beautiful European areas. We will continue to improve with full confidence in the attractiveness and value of our offering for customers of Verbier.
In particular we are going through difficult and time, we wanted to share with you this message and ask you to share the confidence that translates Verbier.
We will keep you informed of developments that we hope to see take a positive turn.
Thank you for your trust and support, we send you, dear partners, to express our warmest feelings.
Verbier, 23 June 2014

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Thanks for that Steve Sparks, more from Le Nouvelliste here, even snowheads gets a mention ,Admin, Haggis_Trap, yer famous boys.

A snowHead

So "Verbier BIG Ski" even bigger than it wasn't last year? i can see the mad men itching to get at those taglines... rolling eyes

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Gilberts Fridge, reading that Le Nouvelliste link, I was surprised but pleased to find them using the term " internaut". I like that word to describe an internet user, and will try to use it myself in future. I may not be an astronaut, but at least I'm an internaut!

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Le Nouvelliste has a headline today stating that the Suisse government will try to act as a mediator. It is behind a pay wall unfortunately so can't comment on it further.

Interesting comments on some blogs I have found stating that the whole mess is typical of the Valaisian attitude. Didn't know they had that reputation amongst the Swiss.

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Gilberts Fridge,

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Following some confusion it has been clarified that the lift from Siviez back to Verbier will NOT be included in the new "Verbier Grand Ski" skipass, see Planetski News

After all it is free

Is there a financial tie between Nendaz and Veysonez at all. It may explain the Nendaz stance, as I would have thought that they would have been keen to keep Verbier access for their clients. The rest of the Printze sector could be busier next season if there is no agreement.

Here's the latest communique from Téléverbier giving their side of the story.

BREACH of the CONVENTION 4 VALLEYS and new pricing "VERBIER GRAND SKI" you learned in the press: Televeysonnaz has unilaterally broken the Convention 4 valleys, in force since 2006. The reason is simple: Televeysonnaz wants that, its neighbour, TV-Thyon pays an additional $ 400'000.-per year with retroactive effects, in relying on grounds which were sliced permanently by the Cantonal Court of the Canton of Valais.

Téléverbier - you can imagine - asked Televeysonnaz repeatedly to extend the old agreement, to give time to find a solution which will finally provide the 4-valleys without risk of questioning. We systematically struck to the intransigence of Televeysonnaz. If a joint tender is offered, we cannot accept that it excluded our partner of Telethyon.

To convey to our partners Tour operators and hoteliers our rates for the coming winter, we could not do otherwise that publish tariff offers with not accessing the 4 valleys, because the agreements necessary to do no longer exist following their termination by Televeysonnaz.nous have not broken the 4-valleys but simply noted that this termination removed them.

We therefore decided to create a new "Verbier GRAND SKI" package, which will allow our skiers to evolve on all sectors Verbier, Savoleyres and la Tzoumaz, to Mont-Fort, Chassoures, Tortin, Jumbo and Bruson which is newly connected directly to Verbier.

With regard to our "big package", its always were priced on the sole basis of the Verbier area and the Mont-Fort, without consideration for the rest of the 4 valleys which, if they provide a quantitative offer additional tracks, remain remote and do not provide the same qualitative level in facilities.

Last year, package Verbier alone (without the Mont-Fort and the jumbo) was CHF 65.- This year, our skiers will pay 'only' six francs more for skiing on the Jumbo sector / Mont-Fort, which include three heavy facilities (cable cars up to 3'300 m). Last year, the surcharge for the 4 valleys was of - 17, an additional 6-to include them is therefore justified.

If Televeysonnaz were to return to best feelings and a base to provide the 4-valleys could be revisited, we incluerions in our offe without extra charge, as it has already been the case so far.

Hoping that you will always enjoy domain Verbier GRAND SKI (Verbier, Savoleyres, la Tzoumaz and Bruson, Mont-Fort, Chassoures) and hope still the 4 valleys, we are counting on your understanding and wish like you all that the reason will eventually prevail. (Translated by Bing)

The reason that TéléVerbier are backing Téléthyon is that they own 31% of Téléthyon and are responsible for the operational management of Téléthyon. I'm not sure what the tie up is between Téléveysonnaz and Télénendaz.

Whatever the rights and wrongs it's an almighty cock-up. As if the strong Franc wasn't already giving people reason to look elsewhere then this comes along. The chaletcos and tourops will be hopping mad. And it's incredibly bad news. For all the other business based in the 4V. There's a meeting of the Societie de developement de Verbier next month which should be quite a fiery affair if this isn't sorted by then.

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Would be interesting to hear the Téléveysonnaz side of the story. As I see it they are the biggest losers if this really goes through. I imagine the lawyers are rubbing their hands...

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Haggis_Trap, agree that everyone loses, but as a holidaymaker I might still consider booking for Verbier, with Mt. Fort & Mt. Gele and all the great skiing to be had there, but I almost certainly wouldn't consider booking just Veysonnaz. OTOH, I would probably compare the offering to Val D'Isere and would just go there instead.

I quickly read the Telethyon press release on their site today and they are talking about an offering relating to the Cone de Thyon, so if this is not sorted out it would appear that Thyon may be isolated on its own with no direct link to its partner Televerbier's area which is/was all via Veysonez and Telenendaz.

I can imagine that a lot of investors in other aspects of the resorts such as bars, ski hire, property, restaurants and accommodation not to mention ski schools are looking at all of this very closely.

You know it makes sense.

Sounds remarkably similar (in my poor memory at least) to the CMB-Les Houches tiff a few years ago,

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Gilberts Fridge, Its Veysonnaz not Veysonez..sorry splitting hairs I know. wink

x

A snowHead

Swissie, only one of the various ways I have spelt it over the years. Laughing

Are you living in the area, if you are what is the local feeling about it all.

A snowHead

Got called 'the Valais mafia' by the (very decent Swiss) guy I bought my place off. TBH apart from Novelli if you lumped Nendaz and Verbier together, the rest would not be such a big loss. A bunch of crappy drags, T bars, long paths, old cable cars, massive queues and only a couple of decent chairs, runs and places to eat.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The plot thickens. There's a meeting this afternoon between the City of Sion and TeleThyon and Televeysonnaz to discuss the future link between Sion and the 4V. Looks like Sion want it to go to Thyon and TeleVeysonnaz not very happy about this. Report in Le Nouvelliste http://www.lenouvelliste.ch/fr/valais/valais/sion-et-veysonnaz-s-opposent-sur-la-telecabine-de-la-piste-de-l-ours-498-1313588

Where will this all end? Should it be settled by a cow fight? That would be the true Valaisanne style.

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Steve Sparks, It is becoming a bit of a pea soup, I read it as they all want it to go ahead, but Thyon and Veysonnaz disagree with Sion over the arrival area of the lift. it would be a good boost if it were to go ahead as I understand it will replace the current Piste de L'Ours lift.

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The Piste de L'Ours is a superb run if I remeber correctly snowHead

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Followed by the superb queue

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...but would it be such a good run if it was more crowded ? and therein lies the attraction to all those crappy drags.

After all it is free

Not hugely surprised, I remember talking to a few bendable instructors about 5 years ago and the ski schools etc had been begging nendaz lift operators to replace the drag lift the connects to the cable car up to the plan du feu. The nendaz lift people decided to redevelop the tracouet restaurant instead. Haven't been back since so don't know if this has changed, but highlights what televerbier are up against

^ dont kid yourself for a second that TeleVerbier are the ones in the right here Wink

I suspect there is more to this story than the press releases let on ? Small town mountain politics. The fact that TeleVerbier own 30% of TeleThyon and a new lift is proposed from Sion to either Thyon OR Veysonnaz no doubt has something to do with the debacle ?

In the past Televerbier publically threatned to close down Bruson unless they got permission to build the Le Chable-Bruson link gondola...

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Haggis_Trap, Looking at the map, the shortest route from Sion to somewhere in the system is to the bottom of the Piste de l'Ours gondola, presumably it would then continue on up replacing the existing old gondola. I can't see the point in building a similar length lift to the base of Thyon. I suppose there could be problems in getting land for the base station in Sion that mean they want to go nearer to Thyon.

My guess would be that the dispute is over how much each of Sion, Veysonnaz and Thyon contribute to the cost.

Help!!

Adieu to the 4 Vallees ski area?

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