 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi
Does anybody know how the 2 different systems map across to each other & in particular what level BASI Level 2 is equivalent to?
Ta
A
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some old info here
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=40299&start=40
Spyderman
super-snowHead
Posts: 27429
Location: On the Red Carpet
VolklAttivaS5, This is how I see the technical skill levels between the various Associations.
Starting from the Bottom:
SSE CI
SSS ASSI - BASI L1 - CSIA L1
SSE ASSI
BASI SI
CSIA L2
BASI L2
CSIA L3 ISIA
BASI Ski Teacher ISIA
CSIA L4 - BASI ISTD
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks kitenski, thing is it doesn't go beyond SSE L2; they've now got 4 instructor levels (http://www.uksnowsports.co.uk/default.asp?contentID=624), but there doesn't seem to be any descriptions of the content of any of the 4 levels, outputs, personal skiing etc
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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There also seems to be a bit of confusion between the UKSS / SSE / SSS etc Instructor Pathways and Coaching pathways (UKCP1 being the L1 coach for BASI L3 and UKCP2 being the Level 2 coach for BASI L4).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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UKSS (i.e Snowsport Scotland / England) is the coaching pathway for training junior ski racers or freestyle skiers.
BASI is the instruction pathway for working in a ski school.
There is no equivalence as such between the two systems - however there are good reasons why the home nations look after the ski racing / competition side of things while BASI train instructors. Once you get to BASI L3/L4 then couple of the UKSS coaching courses need to be done as modules. In the past there used to be a UKSS dry slope instructors qualification called the but this has long been replaced by BASI L1.
EDIT : actually it seems that snowsport england still organise insturctor courses ?
not sure what status they have ? snowsport scotland stopped such courses about 10 years ago!
http://www.uksnowsports.co.uk/default.asp?contentID=620
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 28-04-14 11:02; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I get the coaching pathway, however what gets especially confusing is that Levels 3 & 4 of the "Instructing Pathway" are called Coach rather than instructor!
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Did you go Sunday morning to the Lions abd? I think the L1 instructor is the same one your doing, ie L1 coach???
So UKSS is aimed at "coaching" kids to race
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes kitenski, I'm not sure that that is the case. They were talking in terms that the L1 Instructor is taking the pupil from never ever to plough parallel. They do the L1 internally in the club. See the links I posted. I'm getting more confused! Is it just me?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Ok, so the Alpine Coach L1 that you reference feef, is the UK Snowsports "Coaching Pathway" (hence CP) level 1, also called UKCP Level 1.
Seems that there's quite a lot of confusion on this; I've emailed a contact at SnowSports England to get a definitive answer. Will post on here when I have an answer.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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confusing isnt it... My understanding is that the Coaching or Performance pathway they describe is the new UKCP jointly between BASI and the home nations. The L1 is entry level and the L2 is required for ISTD and skiing ability is high, around BASI L3 technical i recon.. The L3 UKCP course only ran once or twice and they have rejigged it and it will be relaunched this winter I understand. The UKCP L3 is a high standard and the guys who took it are ex FIS racers and above.
Their old Instructor pathway has pretty much been blown out of the water by the BASI L1 instructor award and they rarely even run the L3 or L4 instructor courses which are confusingly called "Coaching" . Contact KieranM on here as he has his L2 SSE and BASI L1. I would say the SSE L2 is between BASI L1 and 2, the instructor pathway then use the term "coach" for their L3 and L4 instructor award
I have the SSE L4 award and I would say it is under the BASI L3 ISIA in terms of skiing ability and the SSE L3 instructor/coach is around a BASI L2 instructor.
The Level 4 SSE Instructor award qualifies you for an international coaching license called the IVSI and allows you to coach in foreign countries with your own club members.
Make any sense at all 
Personally I would just continue with BASI if I were you and perhaps take the UKCP coach 1 either through BASI or SSE , it is exactly the same course. A few of the SSE trainers are not BASI (Phil Brown for instance) but some are both (Mike Barker)
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 28-04-14 11:51; edited 1 time in total
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Thanks skimottaret, as I understand it the SSE L1 Instructor is run in house in the clubs (not sure about the L2). The SSE L1 Instructor is definately still being run from what I can see in one of the clubs local to me.
Still really confusing that a Level 3 Instructor is called a coach, but not on the Coaching Pathway! The L3 instructor (coach) can't be the same as the L1 Coaching Pathway Coach as this (http://www.uksnowsports.co.uk/default.asp?contentID=624) says its a 6 day training course and as we know UKCP L1 is 3 days!
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You know it makes sense.
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sorry I was still typing as you posted. The L3 and L4 instructor are the ones that are hardly ever run. They still run the L1 and L2 's
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The L3 instructor/coach is definitely not the same as the UKCP coach
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, I thought that the Level 4 SSE Coach was the IVSI but obviously not.
So how did you get your Level 4 SSE Instructor and hence IVSI? As you've got your UKCP Level 2, what else have you done with SSE / UKSS / SSS?
This page (http://www.uksnowsports.co.uk/courses.asp?c=Alpine) only shows courses for L1 & L2 on the Instructor Pathway.
What a mess; it's ridiculous that they confuse their own pathway nomenclature by using coach in either strand.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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abd, I think the chairman of Lions is the highest qualified SSE instructor, you would need to ask him what level of course he can run by himself.
He was at the Chill Factore races yesterday but should be at Castleford next Sunday.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks skimottaret, I do intend to continue with BASI, just trying to understand the crossover between the 2 (or knowing how this is going it might be 3 or even 4) pathways within SSE / UKSS.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, L3 and L4 development coach courses have been run more recently by SSE than the last UKSS L3 performance coach course. I haven't seen a L3 performance coach course on the calendar after the one I did in 2010.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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the L4 SSE coach gets you the IVSI license. I did my coaching stuff before the whole UKCP pathway came into existence and those who had L2 coach awards through BASI were granted the UKCP L2. On SSE I worked for the MK ski race club for a couple years and the Head coach was an SSE Tutor and I worked an action plan and logbook for around two years to get my L4 SSE award.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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RJS makes a good point, SSE call the Instructor L3 and L4 "development" coaches and the L3 and L4 UKCP are "Performance" coaches.. Basically the performance coaching is for race coaching and the Development coaching is for recreational skiers.
RJS I heard from RG that the L3UKCP will start back up this pre season and he said Oct they should have details... I cant recall was the one you did in 2010 the UKCP version or the Canadian based one? I keep thinking I may want to have a go at the L3 coach at some point, Ross suggested that I take it and let me have a look at the course content but I got put off by DH and SuperG setting and training 
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 28-04-14 12:11; edited 1 time in total
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skimottaret, You can also get the IVSI licence with L3 performance coach.
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rjs, Thanks didnt know that... so the UKCP L3 coach and L4 "development" coach both get you the IVSI ? I wonder if the BASI run version of the UKCP would get you the IVSI or must you join SSE or SSS
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Not sure how that would work skimottaret, isn't the BASI run version of the UKCP only going to L2 rather than L3?
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abd, No, BASI always had envisioned having 4 levels of coaching similar to what the Canadian Coaching Federation has. The BASI coaching pathway has gone through several iterations. A long time ago BASI and the Home nations (SSE, SSS and SSW) tried to "modernise" and combine their pathways, this failed and SnowSport Scotland used to run two very highly regarded courses called the APC 1 and APC 2 while BASI created their own performance course called the APM. It was a ball buster course that was required for L3 instructors and many who had their 3 tech module failed that course. When I did mine they were just forming their own coaching pathway and combined the APM with another course licensed from the Canadian federation which formed the BASI L2 coach. Subsequently BASI and the Home Nations sat down again and created the UKCP pathway a few years ago and Ross Green who is the head of Coaching for BASI and some of the Home Nations guys wrote the content for the current UKCP L1 and L2 courses. They were going to utilise a lot of content under license from Canada but that fell apart after Sean Langmuir left BASI, Sean has strong connections to the CSCF having coached their national team. So BASI has gone back to the drawing board and has written from scratch the UKCP L3 coaching course which I hear will be launched this winter. The L4 UKCP course I dont know about but is aimed for National Team Coaches. CSCF L3 and UKCP L3 are high level coaches, people like Dave Morris are L3
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/uk-coaching-pathway.aspx
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Mon 28-04-14 12:36; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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abd, glad you asked now, simple isn't it 
Slight tangent but are Lions happy for you to show up ad hoc and help out and does that then count towards your 200 hours? I need to get my 150 mile C2C under my belt at the end of June before I look into all this!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ah, ok, thanks for the background
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| RJS I heard from RG that the L3UKCP will start back up this pre season and he said Oct they should have details... I cant recall was the one you did in 2010 the UKCP version or the Canadian based one? I keep thinking I may want to have a go at the L3 coach at some point, Ross suggested that I take it and let me have a look at the course content but I got put off by DH and SuperG setting and training |
The course documentation was written by Tom Ondrusz but I think the tutors basically copied the Canadian courses that they had done for what we did on snow.
We didn't do anything on DH or SG, just lots of GS in slush on the L2A glacier.
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You know it makes sense.
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rjs, Wasnt sure who wrote it but heard it was based on the CSCF courses. I have seen a draft of the new L3 course workbook and seem to recall there would be some speed training on gliding, rollers jump etc with SuperG setting and DH speed traps with emphasis on safety, spill zones, netting etc... a lot of FIS regs, setting for SL and GS plus some speed, organising and running camps, fitness training and LTAD for each disciplines, biomechanics and skier analysis, Personal Performance only judged on SL and GS though...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, It sounds as if the only real change is to add stuff on speed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Could be, i think it is cosmetic and mainly to avoid the Canadians saying they pinched any of their materials... You thinking of having a go at it ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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skimottaret, I don't see the point of doing basically the same course twice. I would hope that ideas on how to teach speed, particularly the progression from U16 to FIS would get passed on at refreshers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Slight tangent but are Lions happy for you to show up ad hoc and help out and does that then count towards your 200 hours? I need to get my 150 mile C2C under my belt at the end of June before I look into all this!!
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I'm not sure about your particular requirements but my recent experience working towards L2 is that both SSE and BASI have been happy to accept shadowing and teaching hours logged via one system for the other (as they should be).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Heavens! I'm surprised that any of you can keep straight with what is valid where. I often see Q's. asked about instructor grades and where they can be used, but I've seldom seen a thread which shows how mixed up things are in this area - helmets off!! to the lot of you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kieranm, the 200 for L3 can't be shadowed...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
Contact KieranM on here as he has his L2 SSE and BASI L1. I would say the SSE L2 is between BASI L1 and 2, the instructor pathway then use the term "coach" for their L3 and L4 instructor award
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I don't think there's much for me to add here, but I'll give it a go.
The nub of the question seems to be how do the two systems (for instructor training, I'm ignoring the UKCP as I have no experience of that yet) compare? They are pretty comparable. Exactly how you would order them depends on whether you're looking at your own skiing performance, your teaching performance, or something else. SSE are in my experience a bit hotter on teaching and demonstrations and a bit less worried about your performance skiing, but the difference is small overall.
The main reason for the two systems seems to be that they have different goals. SSE is aiming to qualify people to work mainly within a club in the UK, and this will inevitably involve a trend towards coaching as at the higher levels you'll be likely seeing the same people over a long period of time (e.g. through a race club). BASI is aimed more at qualify people to teach in a ski school, ultimately internationally, and the emphasis is more on instruction rather than coaching. Que long discussion about coaching vs instruction!
skimottaret has explained the UKCP much better than I could, but I don't think this will have implications for the SSE or BASI instructor qualifications as they are not really competing with it. I suspect he's right that the BASI L1 dwarfs the SSE L1, and the two are largely in competition with each other.
My advice would be to choose the system that fits best with your goals. E.g. for me having the support of a local club providing the SSE courses and training has been great, but if you hope to teach abroad then BASI makes more sense. Ultimately I did both (and will probably continue to do both) as more training is good, and getting another point of view helps broaden your development.
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kieranm, the 200 for L3 can't be shadowed...
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Yes, sorry - I wasn't as verbose as I should have been. I meant for shadowing hours BASI would accept me shadowing an SSE instructor, and SSE would accept me shadowing a BASI instructor. Or that for teaching hours if I deliver a lesson through a SSE-based-club BASI would accept that as teaching, and likewise if I taught through a BASI school SSE would accept that too. I.e. they don't mind which licence I'm using to gain the experience, it's that I've gained the experience that matters.
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Thanks kieranm.
I'm not actually looking to choose, so perhaps a bit of background will help: I'm already a BASI 2 looking to secure my 200 teaching hours over the next 1.5 seasons so that I can look to do my L3 tech and teach in season 2015/16.
I've turned up at Lions in Castleford and all the instructors have jackets that show their level and am wondering where my BASI L2 gets me in the SSE system as far as equivalence (struggling to see how SSE Level 2 = BASI L2, given that both the SSE L1 & L2 courses are only 2 days each). In exploring this I got thoroughly confused about the different levels, different language (SSE interchanging the use of coach and instructor).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Here's another query however.. how does coaching work in other countries in terms of equivalency? ie, is there an equivalent coaching standard or could someone do coaching in France or Italy but not instruction?
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As I understand it feef, you can coach in France with your IVSI without any issue, just can't "coach" never-evers. I suspect skimottaret, might be along in a sec to give his take on it given that he is actually doing it!
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FAQ
