 Poster: A snowHead
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I have recently had an instructor in the UK suggest that I work on my "central / peripheral flow" which will help my "core form". Now I don't understand what these are, and he didn't seem to be able to explain it either (which I find a little worrying, but maybe no-one else has been brave enough to ask him to?!). I did grasp that core form isn't anything to do with my body's core but something fundamental to the underpinnings of my technique / lack of it.
I've done a bit of google-digging but haven't found a helpful answer, so I'm asking for the massed brains of the Snowheads for explainations....
Many thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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No idea what those phrases mean.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well, at least I'm in good company!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If you ask your coach/instructor to explain terms he used during a lesson and he can't, I'd suggest using a different coach/instructor.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Haha I love Instructor BS... we Brits are the kings of it!
Rob How do you not know these terms? obviously he was a far superior teacher than you!
I'm gonna take a punt at core form being something like basis techniques of skiing, and that flow thing being changing what you are doing smoothly... sure I have a BASI book lying aroung somewhere.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| Rob How do you not know these terms? obviously he was a far superior teacher than you! |
 Sadly I've always been hopeless at Bull$hit Bingo.
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I hope you told him he was a shite instructor? How does using phrases that neither you nor him understand help you improve your skiing? I'd get a refund.
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I think (and I may be wrong --- usually am)...
Core Form = Short radius fall line turns
Central and peripheral flow = Central applies to body, peripheral applies to feet and skis.
So -- what I think he/she was asking you to do is to have you upper body flow more or less straight down the hill with you feet and skis crossing under you body and out the side on each turn...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| dulcamara wrote: |
| Rob How do you not know these terms? obviously he was a far superior teacher than you! |
Sadly I've always been hopeless at Bull$hit Bingo. |
Thank goodness!
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Too much complication of a simple process. Communication is essential in teaching and that has two parts - transmission and understanding. If the latter does not take place no communication and no teaching has occurred. Report him/her to BASI and asked that at his next refresher he is scrutinised very closely.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skiinghamster, i agree with the suggestions above you get a different instructor
On the whole, people use jargon (odd word combinations, initials, acronyms) to impress and cover up their ingorance.
Anyway, i don't think your instructor was using "jargon" - that was bµllsh!t
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Agreed - talking out of his pipe.
An instructors job is to impart information in a way their students can understand clearly and concisely while ensuring their safety.
Sounds like someone who's read a book. They probably didn't understand what they were saying.
Hehe - wonder if they've done an MBA as we'll
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Thanks all. ski, that seems quite likely and is something that I have been working on elsewhere, so I'll go with that.
As for those that suggest a change of tutor, we definitely had the "Look, I haven't a clue what you're asking me to do, and how am I expected to do it if you can't/won't explain it to me in a way that I can understand or at least point out good/bad examples on other skiers so I know I'm aiming for/avoiding?" conversation.
In hindsight, it was similar to the situation where you're talking to a gifted mathematician who has been doing complex stuff so long that he can't remember a time when he didn't just inately "get it", and so struggles to grasp that someone may not be seeing it the way they do or have never come across the concept before. Frustrating all round (I could sense that my lack of understanding wasn't expected) and, as you say, not conducive to learning.
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You know it makes sense.
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Not sure your mathematician analogy stands up skiinghamster, but your ski instructor was spouting crap.
Most people would get lost by such things as "imagine a space" let alone the suggestion that the infinity of even numbers is bigger than the infinity of all numbers... Maths can get so weird that it's beyond the capability of words to adequately describe it.
Skiing however shouldn't other than boxer changing moments.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skiinghamster wrote: |
I have recently had an instructor in the UK suggest that I work on my "central / peripheral flow" which will help my "core form". Now I don't understand what these are, and he didn't seem to be able to explain it either (which I find a little worrying, but maybe no-one else has been brave enough to ask him to?!). I did grasp that core form isn't anything to do with my body's core but something fundamental to the underpinnings of my technique / lack of it.
I've done a bit of google-digging but haven't found a helpful answer, so I'm asking for the massed brains of the Snowheads for explainations....
Many thanks |
Simple this means I don't know how to help you improve, fancy words though will make it all seem it is your fault not mine so you will continue booking with me in the vain hope you will improve and hey who knows after I have read a few dozen more books I may accidently stumble on a solution.
Agree with others above an instructor should be able to explain what they are saying in plain terms, and if need be demonstrate it to you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Was the instructor wearing a Snow Sport England badge ? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't recall any badges, but no-one else at the place wears badges either. Do SSE use a different "vocabulary" to BASI skimottaret, ?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skiinghamster, In my experience they tend to be much more technical when assessing aspirant instructors and I am assuming that rubs off and colours how they teach clients.
Feedback during an SSE assessment "When skiing parallel you often set off in a traverse, seeking the target amplitude before developing sufficient flow. This disrupted arc continuity."
Dear oh Dear
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And I thought I can be a bit wordy! 
I don't mind technical, in fact I like to know what, why and how, but I do have a need to _understand_. (I suspect those things are linked).
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I have recently found the 'one word school of teaching' very beneficial. My word is 'ankles'. I understand that 'zipper' is also a popular word...
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Pedantica, cake.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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'Just do it' also works.
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| Quote: |
Feedback during an SSE assessment "When skiing parallel you often set off in a traverse, seeking the target amplitude before developing sufficient flow. This disrupted arc continuity."
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HAHAHA... Instructors really can be tools!
We (me, actual clever people and Richard Dawkins) call this physics envy, what you are explaining in inherently simple so you use long words to make your job sound harder!
That said i have been asked by a student to explain parallel, there are limits at the other end of the spectrum
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And I thought I can be a bit wordy!
I don't mind technical, in fact I like to know what, why and how, but I do have a need to _understand_. (I suspect those things are linked). Ho hum.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Argh! Cross-post. I meant the SSE excerpt was wordy notdulcamara,
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Shame the author lost interest:
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You know it makes sense.
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Pedantica, It can take a while to be at the point where "action" words have real meaning to the student, but as you have had a lot of coaching it was about time we distilled things.... Me, I sadly have had to go back to two words as I suck in multiple ways... My new ones are Drive and Level , Zip wasn't working...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret,
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I sadly have had to go back to two words as I suck I multiple ways
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Well, if you now need two, I need the whole bloody lexicon!  But I like distilled things, be they words or beverages.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, these are Snowsport England terms, so I'm guessing the instructor using them has been trained through that system. As a Snowsport England (and BASI) instructor I think I understand them pretty well, but I'd never use them with a client as they are far too technical and have next to no meaning to anyone who hasn't been trained as a SSE instructor. BASI isn't immune to this, and has its own jargon - having being trained in both I have to try and remember which jargon to use depending on which system is being discussed. Fundamentally they're all talking about the same things, as the skis and physics don't know what words you're using. Although this instructor was clearly using them in the wrong context, there are times when having a precise technical description of something is useful.
"Central peripheral flow" is a rather fancy way of saying your skis travel further than your body around the turns, so your body can be quiet and go (roughly) straight while your legs and skis go to either side and move underneath you. Angular and rotational separation would be another wordy way of describing this.
"Core form skiing" is in general less well defined, and I've pulled trainers up on this in the past to try and get a good definition. It is again a technical term that, I think, tries to capture a whole range of different things into one short label, but is probably widely misunderstood as a result and I avoid using it altogether due to this. I think I'd translate it as "performance skiing", or just "skiing well". I.e. an instructor's own level of skiing, rather than trying to demonstrate something more basic such as snowplough or skidded parallel turns. It doesn't apply to just short-radius turns as someone else suggested. There's a kind-of definition in here: http://www.snowsportwales.net/Level%201%20instructor%20resource%20pack%20revised%20sept%2008%20v3.pdf
An instructor who hasn't got a lot of experience will sometimes end up being overly technical and overly wordy - I've certainly been guilty of this - but in my experience SSE do try to encourage students to be clear, non-technical and jargon-free in their teaching. There is I think more focus in the SSE system about how to teach and how to deliver a good lesson than the BASI one, but this will I expect vary from club to club.
| Quote: |
Feedback during an SSE assessment "When skiing parallel you often set off in a traverse, seeking the target amplitude before developing sufficient flow. This disrupted arc continuity."
Dear oh Dear
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In defence of this - I was the recipient of this feedback - it was completely accurate and I understood what they were saying. A good instructor will adapt their terms and language to the student and the context. As I understood it, and the context was written feedback after an instructor training course where that kind of vocabulary is expected to be understood, it did the job. For the avoidance of doubt, I wouldn't have been so technical, and wouldn't use such terms with any of my clients as it would never be understood. The danger of using terms like this in instructor training is that not everyone will realise they can't use those terms with clients.
It's a bit disappointing that when challenged the instructor couldn't explain what they wanted to in terms you did understand. I expect/hope this is just lack of experience.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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main thing i have taken away from this post is that there is a seperate SSE instructor qualification... who knew!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A BASI example I saw last week from an experienced L2 giving a lesson to some relative beginners (plough-parallel standard) when trying to assess their level at the start asked one to do "short-radius turns". There was a pause, and an enquiring look from the student, and I'd bet this wasn't a term they knew, but they didn't directly ask for clarification.
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is "short radius turns" really comparable to "seeking the target amplitude before developing sufficient flow. This disrupted arc continuity" and ""central / peripheral flow" which will help my "core form"
one is pretty self explanatory to me (its a turn where the radius is shorter), the other two constitute a complete row in büllsh1t bingo!
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Thanks for the snowsports Wales link and other information. I know a few instructors and I've never heard them obfuscating with jargon, although I'm sure it happens. I'd have thought anyone with a science background would laugh out loud at this sort of thing.
The Snowsports Wales reference says: "Smooth, continuous turning is often called core form skiing." For reasons I can't fathom they don't go on to say that using such jargon would be counter productive to teaching anyone anything.
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dulcamara, no, they're not equivalent, just different examples. Remember though that the "seeking the target amplitude..." one was perfectly well understood by the student whereas I suspect the "short radius" one was not. In that respect one was clearly worse than the other. I expect short radius is self explanatory to you as its a term you've heard before or had explained when it was first used. I remember having to get it explained when it was first used on me, and I wouldn't use it with a beginner. A lot of children for example who would be at that standard wouldn't even know what the word radius means. I've seen instructors struggling with very young children because the children don't know what "left" and "right" are. My whole point is that you have to adapt the language to the audience and sometimes things like "central peripheral flow" or "short-radius turns" or "turn left" will be appropriate and other times they won't.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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That's a fair point, but what is "seeking the target aplitude" anyways?
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