 Poster: A snowHead
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So, I've been having some pretty heated discussions with some mates over the last few weeks, and now i'm curious about what others think, there's a few open questions here... so excuse me, answer what you like
Would you rather pay more for your Catered skiing holiday IF it was genuinely the following
Absolutely fantastically well cooked food actually created by a trained chef - ya know, not the bog standard attempts at cooking by an 18 y/o or someone who's only exp was cooking their own dinner
Personal service from people that work for themselves, who run their own company and who genuinely want to give you a good holiday - not the impersonal service you get from large Tour Ops
The minibus for slope transfers was actually outside the chalet all the time just waiting for you to get in it, not having to wait while the host nips off to get the van and comes back half hour + later
cooked breakfast, with multiple choices daily (not just 1 option, normally overcooked egg)
etc etc
If high quality was genuinely guaranteed would you be happy to pay more for it? and if so, why aren't more people opting for quality?
why do people still expect to pay below average prices for high quality service just because that's all they can afford?
What i'm getting at, is why why why do people expect to get a really high quality 7 day Skiing holiday in the Alps for less than the price of a holiday in the UK? if skiing was available in the UK it would cost a lot more than it does in the alps, but that doesn't mean that the market isn't being smashed by unreasonable budget expectations and what your money can buy you.
Why do people act like it's the accommodation providers responsibility to lower the price, you'd never get away with emailing easyjet and asking them to lower their prices... etc
I'm not generalising and don't want to cause any one offence from my wonderings... but where do these unreasonable budget expectations come from?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Insiders wrote: |
| if skiing was available in the UK |
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Insiders wrote: |
| ... but where do these unreasonable budget expectations come from? |
Advertising?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
but where do these unreasonable budget expectations come from?
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is answered by
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because that's all they can afford
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I think people want the service to match the price - so if you've shelled out for a brochure holiday offering 4-course gourmet dinners, you'd be miffed if the meals were crap.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Would you rather pay more for your Catered skiing holiday IF it was genuinely the following
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I don't want to pay a premium for high service standards. I want to pay average prices for good food and lodge with a big smile. I like to feel as if we are in the hands of someone who wants to please but is not a servant.
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but mostly what people think they're getting as Gourmet isn't - the word is genuinelly over used in the industry by people trying to sell sell sell...
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Quote: |
Would you rather pay more for your Catered skiing holiday IF it was genuinely the following
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I don't want to pay a premium for high service standards. I want to pay average prices for good food and lodge with a big smile. I like to feel as if we are in the hands of someone who wants to please but is not a servant. |
but what do you class as 'good food' a discription that is open to all kinds of mis intereptation...
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unfortunately I think its a very british thing. People ask for quality but when it comes to dipping into their pocket they just want cheap. And the concept of "value" is alien to most british shoppers. i.e I would pay twice as much for something that was 3 times as good. Thats Value = cost divided by quality. But most british people won't
I'm new ish to skiing but have travelled extensively on scuba diving holidays, and I tend to frequent Dive boats and companies used by americans, as they tend to be demanding of quality and don't mind paying for genuine quality. And I've had some fantastic holidays on such products.
Not digging at Frosty but that tends to be a typical british response "I want GOOD quality for AVERAGE price". Personally I would pay a premium for better quality but I tend to be a minority.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
but what do you class as 'good food' a discription that is open to all kinds of mis intereptation...
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tasty, well cooked, decent ingredients, that produces a nice feeling when stuffed into my belly. I don't need Michelin star grub on a ski hol and certainly wouldn't pay a big premium to get it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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because i can go to a b&b or hotel in austria get what the op says and pay less that i would for a seasonaire catered chalet
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Quote: |
but what do you class as 'good food' a discription that is open to all kinds of mis intereptation...
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tasty, well cooked, decent ingredients, that produces a nice feeling when stuffed into my belly. I don't need Michelin star grub on a ski hol and certainly wouldn't pay a big premium to get it. |
But good food and good quality go hand in hand... that's why mcdonalds tastes rubbish - it's cheap but fills a hole
When it boils down to it most Chalet hosts have no experience in catering and don't really know how to cook things to what is considered good quality standards and those staff who have the experience to create high quality tasty dishes often cost more to hire because you have to tempt them away from a job in the UK, hence, why your holiday will cost more once you've also factored in high quality ingredients to create high quality dishes...
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| Quote: |
Not digging at Frosty but that tends to be a typical british response "I want GOOD quality for AVERAGE price". Personally I would pay a premium for better quality but I tend to be a minority.
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My ski holidays usually involve paying for four. Price is one of our biggest factors when choosing. We have always been delighted with the standards set by the likes of Ski Olympic in their chalet service. By taking a big party, rooming kids together in family rooms etc we can make good savings. I got a good deal for me and the Boss once on a Neilsen chalet in Tignes and everything was below average. Same for a family trip with Crystal. I learnt quickly and always chose companies that were similar in price but far higher in value.
I think you are in a minority in that you are able to afford a premium.
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You know it makes sense.
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Until Tour Operators start paying proper wages, chef's will always be gap year kids with limited cooking skills.
Want good food? Stay in a local-owned hotel who pay proper wages.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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When it boils down to it most Chalet hosts have no experience in catering and don't really know how to cook things to what is considered good quality standards
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Based on my extensive chalet experience, usually involving big groups (15-42)....What utter tosh.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| clarky999 wrote: |
Until Tour Operators start paying proper wages, chef's will always be gap year kids with limited cooking skills.
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They shouldn't say they are chefs when they aren't... if more guests actually asked these questions when at the point of enquiry then i'm sure not so many people would book it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| Quote: |
When it boils down to it most Chalet hosts have no experience in catering and don't really know how to cook things to what is considered good quality standards
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Based on my extensive chalet experience, usually involving big groups (15-42)....What utter tosh. |
it's not, and i did say most... i didn't say you
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Insiders, I go on a skiing holiday to ski.
I don't want posh food: pizzas, sausage and mash, spag bol, and chips with everything are fine with me.
Basically what i would cook up myself.
I am not impressed by fancy food.
A clean room, friendly relaxed staff, lack of noise when i go to bed, a generous breakfast.
That's all i need.
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Clean, warm accommodation, basic, tasty food, at low price = reasonable expectation.
Luxury accommodation, gourmet good, at high price = reasonable expectation.
Clean, warm accommodation, basic, tasty food, advertised as luxury accommodation, gourmet good, at low price = gullible, but still reasonable expectation.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My experience is as a punter. I have organised a dozen or so trips for big groups, all friends, all able to appreciate the finer things in life. We have used Collets, Silver Ski, Ski Olympic and Findlays over the years and without exception the food has been excellent at EVERY chalet. I have not come across a single complaint. All cooks were either chefs or enthusiastic amatuer foodies. I doubt we have been exceptionally lucky, but suspect all of the companies work hard at recruitment. In fact all of the staff involved in these chalet holiday have good with many being outstanding.
The best food we ever had was at the infamous (amongst snowHeads) Trax Vacations in chalet Mouflon in La Rosiere where the food was fabulous. A single chalet operation but again we got a cracking deal (standard Yorkshireman).
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I don't really understand the question - there is a huge range of prices on offer so if you want something better you can get it. I don't think anyone really expects "gourmet" food at the cheaper end - I'd expect something simple but of reasonable quality and in a decent amount. You get places which are good and bad value at all points on the spectrum of prices
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Because over here people know how many TO rip them off.
Higher prices for school holidays is just one example along with inflated use of words such as luxury, gourmet and anyone in the UK with any sense will try their hardest to get the best deal they can after all fair is fair.
Unfortunately the few company's who are fair get caught up in this same fight. So if you have issues with UK people wanting the best for less blame the big company's not the people, as you may have a genuine quality but so many others offer that yet reality is they are not.
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Arno, The problem arises when the chalet operator exaggerates the quality, raising expectations of the punter. It doesn't really matter what they charge, as long as the product matches the description, so that it's clear up front what's being provided for the price.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, The problem arises when the chalet operator exaggerates the quality, raising expectations of the punter. It doesn't really matter what they charge, as long as the product matches the description, so that it's clear up front what's being provided for the price.
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Whoops!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
If high quality was genuinely guaranteed would you be happy to pay more for it? and if so, why aren't more people opting for quality?
why do people still expect to pay below average prices for high quality service just because that's all they can afford?
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Jeez more over minted SnowHeads.
errr maybe its because its all they can afford?
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Absolutely fantastically well cooked food actually created by a trained chef - ya know, not the bog standard attempts at cooking by an 18 y/o or someone who's only exp was cooking their own dinner
Personal service from people that work for themselves, who run their own company and who genuinely want to give you a good holiday - not the impersonal service you get from large Tour Ops
The minibus for slope transfers was actually outside the chalet all the time just waiting for you to get in it, not having to wait while the host nips off to get the van and comes back half hour + later
cooked breakfast, with multiple choices daily (not just 1 option, normally overcooked egg)
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Yep, thinking about my last holiday, absolutely fantastically cooked food to our own exclusive menu. Snacks fresh from the oven with cocktails on our balcony for sunset, Pierre chaud with duck breast, filet cheval (horse to you) and chicken with a selection of dips, gorgeous raclette with charcouterie. etc etc.
Very personal service from the easyjet staff on the flight and the Citer staff who provided our car, lovely reception from the apartment owners as they showed us to our fine apartment with balcony in their own huge traditional chalet house.
Car parked right outside for our personal use for slope transfers and general gadding about. Nice wander through the traditional village to get breakfast pain au chocolat or croisants and walking back with the scent of woodsmoke and a baguette under the arm.
Total cost? Just over £500 each and that included a 7 day full area lift pass. Why would I want to pay more?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't really understand the question - there is a huge range of prices on offer so if you want something better you can get it. I don't think anyone really expects "gourmet" food at the cheaper end - I'd expect something simple but of reasonable quality and in a decent amount. You get places which are good and bad value at all points on the spectrum of prices
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100% agree. Food cooked to your private whims by a highly skilled chef costs a fortune. My son does that from time to time, when skint, and for two weeks at New Year, cooking for a three generation family of 7 Russians in Courchevel, he was paid several thousand euros and left a €1500 euro tip! And that was just what he got - the staffing agency he works for would have got a fair bit more, and the food was charged at cost (they bought their own caviare). And the accommodation must have cost a fortune of course - no idea how much but when I drove him there I felt unworthy to walk around the place even in my clean socks. The mountain view from the pool was stunning! You don't get brochures with "typical menus" for that sort of place - you tell the chef what you want, and how many of your friends you are going to bring round for dinner, at what time!
In the past, when we were taking the family on holiday on a tight budget, we had much more basic holidays, in ordinary sorts of chalets, always more than acceptable quality and good value for money. One of the prime selling points of French skiing is that you can get whatever you want - from millionaire-style pads with staff and vehicles at your beck and call, in enormous ski domains, down to quiet resorts where you can rent a very pleasant 2 bedroom slopeside apartment for €450 a week, have a 2 hour private lesson for 4 people for €75 and a well cooked evening meal with loads of wine for €25.
The market is exceptionally competitive which is likely to mean that if you shop smart you will probably get what you pay for.
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The best chalet food we've ever had (and we've had LOTS) was at the chalet of an erstwhile Snowhead (Chalet Vallons, in Le Seignus - tiny resort in southern Alps with a big ski area) - that was also the lowest price we've ever paid - not a last minute deal either. The food was simple but very well-cooked; roast chicken, lamb, pork fillet, with - again - excellent veg and potatoes, followed by fabulous puddings. The owners were English with their own chalet and it was their livelihood. The following year we went to another owner-run chalet with pretentious food - everything was in a jus, or draped in something - I swear some other unrecognisable item was 'anointed' in something else. The point is, you can't always tell and I have had more-than-decent food in a TO chalet run by 18/19 year olds, who loved cooking.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Chamcham wrote: |
| Arno, The problem arises when the chalet operator exaggerates the quality, raising expectations of the punter. It doesn't really matter what they charge, as long as the product matches the description, so that it's clear up front what's being provided for the price. |
I think the punter has to take some responsibility for seeing through the marketing. if you're expecting fine wines and foie gras for £50 a night you're deluding yourself. you CAN get good, simple, hearty food, a clean and comfortable bed and a friendly, efficient host for that sort of cash or maybe less.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Insiders, I used to be a big fan of chalet holidays. I'ved used VIP, Simply Ski (before Crystal messed them up), Ski World, Ski Total, Le Ski, Ski Val, TUI (in the Crystal/Thomson/etc, and who have now gobbled up Ski World, Ski Total) Ski Amis, and a few others gone by the wayside. My over-riding impression is that there is a new breed of chalet worker - the "seasonnaire" - aka the 18 year-old-boarder-skier-with-naff-all-real-experience-who's-blagging-a-season-on-the-snow!
The "saisonnaire" is a cancer in the chalet holiday formula, and the sooner the TO's recognise this the better it will be for their business.
Me??..... I now prefer to DIY, usually at similar costs to a decent TO, but much better flights (BA), transfers (4X4/car hire), accommodation (pretty decent 4* hotels that out of high season are damn reasonable).
BTW, I'm having a 4 day ski break in Lech in 10 days time with that DIY approach, LHR-ZRH (includes ski carriage, and mid-day flights both ways), car hire, Half Board at 4* hotel in Lech (next to slopes, 100m from Cable Car) - works out at less than £400 per person. For a week it would be about £550/600. No painful charter flights, bus-loads of kids/mums on the transfer coach, no inane "reps" with "sheep-sitting-attitude", and usually rather better than chalet fare cuisine, better house-keeping, and much more refined staff to boot! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Jonpim wrote: |
Insiders, I go on a skiing holiday to ski.
I don't want posh food: pizzas, sausage and mash, spag bol, and chips with everything are fine with me.
Basically what i would cook up myself.
I am not impressed by fancy food.
A clean room, friendly relaxed staff, lack of noise when i go to bed, a generous breakfast.
That's all i need. |
Exactly my thoughts. Cheap and cheerful every time for me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nothing made from mince for me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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clarky999, or go self-catering and make sure at least one of the party likes to cook and is a reasonable cook.
I much prefer to self cater in a well set up chalet (ie microwave, dishwasher, raclette/fondue machines as well as good hob and oven) and to have things like morning bread delivered and ideally good in resort provision of things like rotisseries chicken. Provision of ready made up beds, mid week towel change and end of stay cleaning mean that, for me, the cooking is fun. But then I enjoy cooking and resent being paying for mediocre meals!
Years ago when we took the caravan to France to ski, and the kids were small, my slow cooker was wonderful, and the availability of good take away often a superb 'dish of the day' from the camp site made cheap ski holidays still a nice 'eating experience'. When the kids were a bit older and could actually stay awake long enough to have dinner in a restaurant we had some wonderful and inexpensive meals out in very French ski resorts!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A whole range of price/quality points is demanded … and supplied.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Insiders, I did a course at work called "negotiating for success". One of the things that I was utterly amazed by is there are lot of people out there who will always set prices artificial high because they expect to be haggled down, and they firmly believe that everyone else out there is doing the same. So those type of people will always assume that prices have been set with the expectation that they will be knocked.
One thing I took away from Is It is always worth asking. You certainly shouldn't be insulted by people asking. For them it is a way of live and part of the game. I guess if you are really getting a lot asking then do just that inflate your prices so that you can be haggled down, as those type of people seem unable to image that there are people that set prices honestly and genuinely at what they are worth. I personally fall into that camp when selling something I ask a price I feel is fair, when buying I will pay a price that is fair, I am not obsessed with getting a discount or it cut down unless I genuinely feel it is over priced, but tbh I feel happier just switching to a supplier which is asking a fair price.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
the "seasonnaire" - aka the 18 year-old-boarder-skier-with-naff-all-real-experience-who's-blagging-a-season-on-the-snow!
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this phenomenon has been around since I did seasons in the late 1980s. Part of the problem is that it is really, really difficult to find staff who are OK let alone excellent. For big companies it's a nightmare. Mind you, I was not offered jobs by Bladon Lines nor Supertravel even though I am excellent, heh heh heh.
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A lot of people here are arguing that they don't want Gourmet, and they don't want to pay more. Which is fine, there's a wide market . But that's not what the OP is on about. He'd saying (I think!) is why do (some) people expect gourmet and luxury, for a non luxury price?
I'm with Chamcham, both of them,  , that it is the expectation that is over-egged. If you go with eyes wide open, knowing what a chalet is about, that it isn't 5 course cordon bleu champagne and truffles every night, knowing what a ski pass / group lesson / beer on the mountain / night on the tiles is going to cost you, then you accept it, you don't get to a whinge, you relax, and you enjoy it more.
So when they use the word 'luxury' in the brochures, chances are... it isn't. Unless you are paying for it. So don't be disappointed.
Now, as to why those who DO like proper luxury aren't out their biting off Insiders hands if that what he's offering - well that too I'd suggest is because 'once bitten twice shy' comes to mind.
When the word 'luxury' has been devalued by mid-market offerings, what word is left to tempt the high end; how do you advertise a different experience? Super luxury? Naff. Exclusive? Been done. Special? hmm. I think you need to be thinking fly through videos and trustworthy / verifiable testimonials, and a web-site like no other.
Or at the very least, a good write up by a multi-posted Snowhead.
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| Insiders wrote: |
| If skiing was available in the UK it would cost a lot more than it does in the alps, but that doesn't mean that the market isn't being smashed by unreasonable budget expectations and what your money can buy you. |
Quite possibly you're from the South and assuming that people with similar interests have similar disposable incomes. Possibly you're assuming that the skiing is only a secondary interest for people taking a ski holiday. And maybe you're reckoning that if you're taking your annual week in the Alps, it should be special.
You do seem to be unaware that there's skiing for many of us in the UK and that it costs significantly less than in the Alps too. I try to ski as many weekends or sneaky weekday holiday days as I can throughout the season. They're either day trips out and back in the day, or for overnighters, accommodation is a sleeping bag and roll mat in the car, a bed and breakfast or a tent with a fish and chip supper.
But I love my trips in the Alps too and take as many as I can afford and therefore try not to pay more than £400-500 for an all-in, 7 night TO catered chalet or hotel package. For that, I get flown, get transferred, eat cake when I get there, I drink beer, I eat supper, I drink the wine, I sleep in a warm bedroom. I wake up, I get fed breakfast, I ski, I eat the cake, I drink beer, I eat supper, I drink the wine and I go to sleep in a warm bedroom and do it again until I get bused back to the airport for home. It seems like great value, I don't eat any fish and chips all week and I don't wake up cold once.
By not worrying about 'quality' (it doesn't affect the skiing does it?) I have enough money left over so that when I get home, I can ski again in the UK a week or so later. That's good value.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've had exactly as you want from smaller independents , good food cooked by a trained chef, mini bus at your beck and call. Sub £500 this January in meribel les alludes. You could see the mini bus getting cleared of snow and warmed up whilst eating breakfast, then it was loaded with skis and ready to go by 9am...
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There may be a bit of skiing. but not enough for the typical Chalet holiday to make use of... if there was it would still cost a damn sight more than in the alps...
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FAQ
this is what i was trying to get at, but didn't know how to say it 
