 Poster: A snowHead
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Daughter 8 was with ESF last week, just for mornings. Although the classes started at 9, they didn't start skiing until after 10, a mixture of taking ages to organise them, get up the mountain and instructor chatting on his phone.
On the third day I mentioned to the instructor that it bothered me they still hadn't started skiing at 10.15 and he said he couldn't help it, that morning, there had been a problem. It had actually been the day before too, but he didn't know we had happened across them, which made us follow the next day.
Today, chatting to D about her holiday, she told me she had been scared on one day, as her ski had come off and the group went on without her. She said someone helped her get her ski back (up the hill) and skied down on her own to the chair, but the group were not there. She told me she was scared they had gone down without her, but saw another group - not hers, going up, so went up in the chair on her own, hoping they would all be at the top. She said she was trying hard not to cry, but was scared she was on her own.
Thankfully, after a short ski down from the chair, she found her group, apparently the instructor just rolled his eyes at her, but didn't tell her off.
I was a bit sad she hadn't told me this before, but she thought we would be cross with her for not staying with the group, although she couldn't because it was hard to get her ski on.
I wasn't impressed with ESF and won't be using them again, but not sure whether to let them know this happened, or whether they will really care. What would you do? I am of the mind to just leave it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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K8T, at this stage, I wouldn't bother; it would have to have been discussed on the day to have any impact. Sounds like a nasty experience for the poor kid - it sounds as though she dealt with it well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wow that's bad. I'd at least send a feedback email, they'll have a rough idea of who was teaching that group, they certainly need to know for the future, a kid could go missing.
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That sounds pretty shitty, and I think deserves a complaint taken at face value. If you can get a French speaking friend to write for you in French, it might yield more attention?
Where was it?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'd certainly complain, at least he might get a kicking from the ESF (if they care). How many were in the class? They do tend to have huge classes in the holidays which must be difficult to keep track of. Although that's no excuse and it sounds as if the instructor wasn't much use anyway. I think you should share the location for the information of anyone planning to go there.
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| K8T wrote: |
I wasn't impressed with ESF and won't be using them again, but not sure whether to let them know this happened, or whether they will really care. What would you do? I am of the mind to just leave it. |
Which ESF in which resort? They aren't all the same 'company' as such so it's unfair to tar them all with the same brush.
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K8T, yes, which resort, and what level was your daughter in?
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K8T, realistically, I suspect there's nothing you can do now except send a whinging email that'll probably get ignored. If you'd known about it at the time though you'd have been totally justified in screaming very loudly.
Counting kids (and adults!) on and off chairlifts to make sure you haven't lost anyone is a standard part of the job and for the instructor not to know he's a child down is both disgraceful and totally unacceptable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Would you feel guilty if you saw on the news in a few weeks that somebody else had lost a kid from an ESF class but with a less happy ending? If so, is there something you'd wish you'd done? If so, consider doing that!
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I was chuffed to spot my 7 year old on the mountain as we rode the gondola over her head - but then realised she was not with her group :/ it was a few minutes later that we spotted her group further up the mountain. She must have somehow missed them and gone ahead before stopping and waiting. Bit that's what she was doing; she was just stopped and waiting. When we met her at the end of the lesson she said she had lost them but she just waited. It's a proper git wrench watching your kid alone on the mountain - but it was a green with lots of folk on it and she would have been ok somehow. It's a question of how much cotton wool we want to keep our kids wrapped up in and what is a real danger at the end of the day. My daughter did well in just staying still, staying calm and just waiting. I doubt many kids get taken on remote runs that they are left stranded if they do lose their group.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry for typos - on my phone
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I wasn't going to say, but didn't realise they were all different. To be honest, the first day we were impressed, the guy seemed really interested in the kids, the second day too, although we saw them still not skiing at 10, when we saw them again later, what we saw was OK and we were in fact congratulating ourselves on how lucky we were!
It was the third morning we saw them going up and followed them, that was when I approached him, after watching from a distance for some time and seeing no action. I think this happened on the same day, or next day and I agree with Pam, it really needs to be addressed at the time and would have been if we knew.
It was Sainte Foy, there were 8 in the group, not so many he could miss one, she was in two stars and pretty much secure in this, quite able to ski down on her own if she had to.
I am still inclined to leave it. A couple of hours private throughout the week next time I think.
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| Quote: |
it was a green with lots of folk on it and she would have been ok somehow
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exactly - we do need to keep this in proportion. The OP said he'd already complained and got nowhere - which is why I suggested letting it go, now. On the day I'd certainly have complained and of course the guy should be counting heads.
I once picked up a weeping 3 year old in a heap at the side of a piste (she was there as I went up the lift, a pathetic little bundle). Couldn't really communicate; we seemed to have no common language. Waited a while, quite a cold day and a pretty deserted piste, then took her down to the bottom of the little drag lift she was beside, planning to explain to the liftie, who would be able to communicate with somebody sensible. Met there by irate instructor, told me off and said I should always leave them where they are!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
It's a question of how much cotton wool we want to keep our kids wrapped up in and what is a real danger at the end of the day. My daughter did well in just staying still, staying calm and just waiting. I doubt many kids get taken on remote runs that they are left stranded if they do lose their group.
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So would you have been happy to meet your child's group on the mountain only to discover that she wasn't actually with the group and the instructor had no idea where she was? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I asked my instructor (ESF and brilliant) about this when we were skiing in Jan. I said must be quite a nerve racking task taking so many little kids up a mountain especially on cloudy / snowy days... he said it's fine as you just do lots of counting and the runs they take the smaller kids on tend to be quite busy with other ESF coaches too. This means that on the occasion a kid gets separated from their group they aren't in any danger as another instructor will quickly pick them up.
Personally I think your kids all sound very impressive... pretty sure I would have cried at that age if I was lost in a supermarket let alone on my own in a ski resort! I think my biggest concern would be it might put a kid off skiing which would be a huge shame.
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Poster: A snowHead
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and they hijack some poor unsuspecting bystanders into babysitting for them on the chairlifts 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I see where you are coming from Quinton.
I asked her what she would have done if they weren't there when she got up and she said she would have found another ESF teacher or just waited by the lift for a bit and then skied down to the office.
It was a blue at the top of the second lift, so a long way to ski back down to the bottom on your own! The pistes were almost empty at times too.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
So would you have been happy to meet your child's group on the mountain only to discover that she wasn't actually with the group and the instructor had no idea where she was?
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Shimmy Alcott didn't say she was happy to spot her daughter on her own - but recognised that this was not a high-grade emergency and that kids learn to cope with minor problems (which is what it was). It's because people do this sort of "yes but what if......" stuff that some parents have become so paranoid that kids end up starting secondary school never having been left to sort out minor problems of this kind on their own. I'm sure more children have died on the roads travelling to and from ski resorts than have frozen to death after having been separated from their ski group in a family ski resort. Having been told off for "rescuing" a child I recognised that what the instructor said made sense. Best to leave them where they are - and stand by if you feel they are very distressed, by all means.
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pam w, our neighbour has an appointment on Wed afternoon at around the time her almost 13 year old daughter finishes school. They've asked me to go and collect her if I am not at work, as she has never got on a bus before by herself  .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Are there any statistics on how many kids in lessons get lost and die? Genuine question. Does that ever happen?
Torn between 'balls to the little blighters, it will be good for them!' and being a concerned dad with furrowed brows, given that my four year old will be in an ESF group in a fortnight's time
On a sunny day, big wide green run with loads of people around, I'd go the former. But on a cold day, somewhere a bit narrow, few crowds, where the weather might close in... I dunno. I've been out having a nice time myself, and suddenly a fog has come in where we could hardly see the end of our own noses. Ended up way off piste by accident. Not sure that'd be a great situation for someone in single figures.
ESF have a major duty of care over children, in an environment which will simply kill you if it feels like it.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Having been told off for "rescuing" a child I recognised that what the instructor said made sense. Best to leave them where they are - and stand by if you feel they are very distressed, by all means. |
I agree with almost everything you say regarding topics on childcare, except this. If you see a wailing child, cold and alone, you help them. Being told off after the fact by some penguin in red trousers is ridiculous.
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Hells Bells, oh dear, that's really sad. An almost-teenager who cannot get herself to or from school. When is she going to start working up to a gap year in thailand and being invited to all night full moon beach parties with drugs and boys? Or even a simple night out with some girlfriends to the local cinema or swimming pool?
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There is a balance to be struck. Ultimately if the kiddiwinks don't feel safe and confident in the instructor they don't learn so well. I'm all for independence, but I'm also all for fostering positive experiences with the view to encouraging a lifelong love of a fabulous sport. I say, if you aren't happy with a resort, and their instructors, write an email, and vote with your feet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, getting to and from her private school is not simple but it is a straight road down from school into the city centre and onto a very distinctive purple bus to get home.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I get the impression that it's pretty standard for the ESF. The general response on here seems to back that up, don't bother following it up as nothing will be done about it.
Hopefully other companies will continue to set up in opposition to them and notwithstanding a few protectionist arrests etc they will eventually have to start mending their ways when they start to run out of clients.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
She reached the top and I climbed up finding her 5 minutes later crying her eyes out
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well yes, she would, all on her own up there! She probably thought a troll had got you.  It's quite sweet when they start worrying about you, though.
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K8T, congratulations to your daughter on keeping such a cool head. I think I'd be tempted to write, in a friendly tone, describing the experience. That way, there's a chance of some improvement, otherwise none.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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musher,
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Poster: A snowHead
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quite common apparently
although far less harmfull than Dutch Trolls!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've been 'lost' twice, both much older than the OPs daughter and it wasn't very nice but I think it is a common thing.
Probably best to ask what your kid should do if they get separated from the group and make sure they know the plan.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I've been 'lost' twice
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Me too (but three times - I must be unlucky)
First time phoned a friend who was also in the group and managed to meet back up
Second time - ended up navigating myself back to the centre I was staying at (good hour ski away) - I ALWAYS carry a paper map
Last time was in heavy snow - By the time I'd picked myself up they group had gone and headed up the next lift. Fortunately it was first run of the day - so I opted for a bar day  , eventually went out again with some people I'd met at the hotel and played in the fresh snow. That instructor found me at the end of the day and apologised.
As kat.ryb said make a plan and make sure they know the plan
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TheGeneralist, there are already competitors to the ESF in all the major French resorts and many of the minor ones. And also some very positive reports of recent lessons (all ages) with ESF. I use their competitor in our village, normally, but have had some very good cross-country lessons with ESF, with small groups. A mixed picture, as always.
Certainly makes sense to talk about what they should do if separated.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If I was you I would certainly follow it up and write - I would have been going spastic if I was in your shoes, not necessarily about the late starts but certainly about your daughter being alone on the piste - in Valmorel several years ago I managed to get a full refund on some ski lessons with their ESF for a similar thing with one of my young daughters, the only time I was ever grateful for a 10 year old having a mobile in her pocket.
Unfortunately standards seem to drop dramatically with the ESF in the school hols and whilst I have a soft spot for them as they have helped me, my wife and two daughters to become ok skiers and all my family have had some good instructors, in half term in most resorts they do, unfortunately, drop from being fantastic to a bit of a shambles.
All of our good tales are outside of peak periods.
I wish you luck but I hope you will decide to say something.
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my 13-yr olds have never been on a bus on their own either - I'm sure they'd cope but there has never been a requirement for them to go on a bus! That said they do get themselves to and from school and other places happily by foot or bike.
with regard to lessons etc, they were always told if lost/seperated to go to nearest lift and give a liftie our phone numbers, which they had on card in pocket. Of course now they just phone us
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pam w gives a very balanced view, but on the whole I always advise avoid ESF unless you are French.
As pointed out here, there are other Ski Schools, many with promises of small classes.
I would go with them.
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I think the complaint will be quickly dismissed. From their point of view your daughter found her way back to the group or vice versa, so no harm done. The late starts, gaelic shrug. ESF are a large scale franchised operator and therefore you will get the level of service that operating model facililitates. Best to check out other options or at least get positive reviews about the particular ESF you are going to use. I doubt any major harm has come to children lost from their ski school. But it wouldn't be a pleasant experience. I've too wondered how/if they really keep tabs. The starting at 10 on a regular basis I found more worrying. I would expect them to start loading on to the first lift as soon as the clock ticks over.
One other thought. 8yo would be old enough to have a small simple payg mobile phone.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
As pointed out here, there are other Ski Schools, many with promises of small classes.
I would go with them.
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trouble is that the competition is often a lot more expensive, and that makes a big difference for families with several kids - skiing is expensive!
But I organised 5 x 2 hours private lessons for a group of 4 English kids last April - for very little more than the cost of group lessons, and far better for them.
When posters on SHs ask "where shall we go for our ski holiday" I routinely advise them to prioritise quality of ski school - forget about the wretched hot tubs. 
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Layne, I presume you mean Gallic shrug. A Gaelic shrug would usually come with a profuse apology, lol
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FAQ
She reached the top and I climbed up finding her 5 minutes later crying her eyes out 
