 Poster: A snowHead
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This morning brings sad news of another life (this time a young one) claimed by a collision with a tree. In this incident, in the Vermont resort of Killington, the victim is a 23-year-old snowboarder Skylar Ormond ...
NY snowboarder dies after striking tree in Vt. [The Wall Street Journal]
http://online.wsj.com/article/APe1959ea008d04d9482953bfcdec01941.html
... and the cause of death is stated as "internal injuries". Sometimes reports of this type specify that the skier/rider was/wasn't wearing a helmet, but the cause of death is the critical factor. The head is not necessarily at greatest risk in this type of incident.
Collision with the upper body can be as dangerous as concussion. One golden rule when skiing trees, often emphasised by instructors, is "look at the white space, never the tree/obstacle". It's a simple but very important pyschological tool in outwitting one of the commonest and most significant hazards on mountains.
It could easily save your life, or save you from another associated death-trap with trees. That's the 'tree well' of lesser snow cover around the base of the trunk. Each year, skiers and snowboarders plunge into these wells, head down, unable to get out, and die from asphyxiation.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 19-01-14 22:16; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes, krakatoa, very sad.
And according to the report he wasn't really Tree Skiing:
| Quote: |
| Police say one of the friends fell and Ormond swerved to miss him. He went into the woods and tumbled before hitting a tree |
Skiing through the trees at speed is something i've never mastered: a combination of lack of courage and lack of ability.
I do admire those who manage it, and repeat krakatoa's mantra of "Look for the space between the trees, not the trees themselves"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Sorry about that, but then 5 people died on the roads in the UK yesterday also - nothing's completely safe.
The evidence on accidents at ski resorts is clear: the risk isn't high, but if you want to reduce it further, ride more carefully.
This chap wasn't actually riding trees, from that report. It suggests they were riding so close/ at a speed such that when one fell the other lost control... if you're not in control, where you're looking (or how many safety toys you have) isn't really going to make much difference.
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As far as riding trees, I'm not at all a fan of the "look at the spaces" thing, which to me seems to be to be a combination of "do not close your eyes" and "look where you're going". I'm absolutely sure that everyone's heard it, yet many of them still can't hack the trees.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I am guessing that the white space stuff is more a case of "look where you want to go" similar sort of mantra when riding the motorbike quickly, if you look at the kitty litter when going a bit quick round a corner you often end up there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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krakatoa / Comedy Goldsmith, you've started two threads this morning with a news theme, using two of your snowHeads identities. Just wondering how you selected which name to use for which thread?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob, obviously happy to discuss it but maybe not here.
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Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't aware multiple identities were allowed here.
I feel manipulated by this sort of thing, as I guess you do, or you would not have pointed it out. It may not be abuse of your rules, but it's abuse of my trust.
Would it not be a good idea to make at least the IP address of posters visible, or somehow connect the profiles of multiple accounts? I'm somewhat disinclined to interact with people who are pretending to be a crowd, whatever their rationale.
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Oooooh.....the mystery. You should meet at a train station platform, one of you could wear a red carnation, the udder one could wear a cow onsie...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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philwig, +1
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krakatoa, Strangely coy CG. You normally a bit more fighty than that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| krakatoa wrote: |
| rob, obviously happy to discuss it but maybe not here. |
I seem to recall you were not slow to point out that this duplicitous stuff was at best "poor form" when it comes from the committee of the SCGB; why is it any better when you engage in it yourself?
Why not just post a list of your aliases here, or even better, why not just be honest like most of the rest here?
Why are you trying to trick people?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| philwig wrote: |
Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't aware multiple identities were allowed here.
I feel manipulated by this sort of thing, as I guess you do, or you would not have pointed it out. It may not be abuse of your rules, but it's abuse of my trust.
Would it not be a good idea to make at least the IP address of posters visible, or somehow connect the profiles of multiple accounts? I'm somewhat disinclined to interact with people who are pretending to be a crowd, whatever their rationale. |
Indeed. All more the more frustrating when David is so quick to criticise people he doesn't agree with simply on the basis that they are not using their real names on the forum. For those relatively new to the forum you might to be aware that it's a tactic he has used for years.
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It's only a snapshot of the issue, but back in 2010 'Ski Safety Blog' (which is authored by a US law firm) compared 3 fatal tree collisions which had happened on American slopes in the preceding week ...
http://www.skisafety-blog.com/ski-safety/last_week_tree_collisions_resu/
Back in 2007, there was an 8-page snowHeads discussion about a tree collision that involved a 38-year-old skier from Sussex who died when colliding with a tree in Canada. In that case, as cathy pointed out on the third posting, the cause of death was "blunt force trauma". The ensuing discussion focused more on helmets.
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You know it makes sense.
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Why is it always coming back to helmets! Every thread about an accident seems to come back to an argument on helmets. If you don't want to wear one fine. Just don't try to convince everyone else not to. I wear one and am glad I do. I made up my own mind that it seemed sensible. I don't try to convince my mates they should it is up to them. But I would not be happy of they tried to convince me I should not. I appreciate there maybe pros and cons but there are with everything in life. Some wear helmets some don't. Who really cares. People can make a decision themselves.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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mattiwilkin, No you see it isn't always about helmets in real life, but CG/Krakatoa (or whoever) has some problems in that he cannot see any event without reference to helmets. He has some hilarious "facts" about safe sex.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| philwig wrote: |
Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't aware multiple identities were allowed here.
I feel manipulated by this sort of thing, as I guess you do, or you would not have pointed it out. It may not be abuse of your rules, but it's abuse of my trust.
Would it not be a good idea to make at least the IP address of posters visible, or somehow connect the profiles of multiple accounts? I'm somewhat disinclined to interact with people who are pretending to be a crowd, whatever their rationale. |
Indeed. All more the more frustrating when David is so quick to criticise people he doesn't agree with simply on the basis that they are not using their real names on the forum. For those relatively new to the forum you might to be aware that it's a tactic he has used for years. |
+1
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| thecramps wrote: |
| mattiwilkin, No you see it isn't always about helmets in real life, but CG/Krakatoa (or whoever) has some problems in that he cannot see any event without reference to helmets. He has some hilarious "facts" about safe sex. |
Is this another P.A. thread?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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andyrew, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I've never heard the thing about looking at the white space between the trees rather than the trees, but it makes sense as a concept. I shall ask the kids to make sure that they are aware of this though as they are the ones that like the trees. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| philwig wrote: |
Oh, thanks for pointing that out. I wasn't aware multiple identities were allowed here.
I feel manipulated by this sort of thing, as I guess you do, or you would not have pointed it out. It may not be abuse of your rules, but it's abuse of my trust.
Would it not be a good idea to make at least the IP address of posters visible, or somehow connect the profiles of multiple accounts? I'm somewhat disinclined to interact with people who are pretending to be a crowd, whatever their rationale. |
We need to know who is multiple posting.
I hit the ignore button for CG because he posts such twaddle - now need to do the same for k
What other socks does he use ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Megamum, ....in mountain biking (downhill and cross-country) this is known as 'magnetic rock syndrome' - here I am going down a trail, the trail is clear and obvious; there is a big rock over there to the side of the trial...I look at the rock to avoid it, I carry on looking at the rock....I am weirdly drawn to the rock....I hit the rock.
It's very well know in mountain biking as a flaw in human perception.
Remedy - eyeball the trail ahead...make a mental note of route...glance at rock to make sure you know it's not a threat...look back at the trail....DON'T LOOK AT THE ROCK...DON'T LOOK AT THE ROCK....keep your eye on the trail...pass the rock safely. Likewise with a root across the trail - look at it, judge if it's a threat...then ignore it and ride over it, continuing to look forward at the trail not down...
Same with skiing....
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'seeing the spaces', I had a driving course on a track here with Audi, and evasive maneuvers was one topic. You had to see the space you wanted to get through, as that is your target - the brain cannot see or respond to negatives for action apparently.
For example, if I say to you "don't think of a banana", your brain immediately will go "ooo, banana" (possibly like a minion).
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 2-02-14 14:42; edited 1 time in total
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Comedy Goldsmith, old news which has already been on here.
valais2, skiing in Austria last year, I found myself in an area with very poor snow cover. As I was nearing the lift station, I noticed a huge patch of sticky mud, immediately next to a path with just enough snow on it to be skiable. Making a mental note to avoid the muddy patch, I set off and, guess what? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Pedantica, ....magnetic mud as well as magnetic rocks!....
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One tree collision last February involved a 10-year-old British girl, Jemima Prees, who died above Mayrhofen while skiing with her family. This was a particularly harrowing accident, in that her brother Barney desperately tried to save her life. Press reports immediately after the accident did not specify the cause of her death.
The inquest 8 months later established that she had lost consciousness. The coroner concluded ... that she had "hit an icy patch, lost control and hit her head on a tree."
BBC report: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-24533395
So, the two British cases cited here illustrate the point (which has been researched in the past, but with no freely-available scientific papers that I can find in the public domain) that skiers/snowboarders die from the two quite different impacts with solid obstacles - to the head, or to the upper body. The impact can be severe, even at relatively low speeds.
As for skiing through trees ... the 'look at the white spaces, not the trees' is one key point. The other is to recognise that advanced turning skills are need to keep speed in check in confined gaps on steepish terrain. This kind of terrain also needs big snow cover to avoid stumps, roots etc. If in doubt ... avoid.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 19-01-14 19:46; edited 2 times in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Pedantica, now you're on, check out the thread on 'skiing girls are hot...you will indeed get the irony...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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valais2, yes, great video!
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| valais2 wrote: |
Megamum, ....in mountain biking (downhill and cross-country) this is known as 'magnetic rock syndrome' - here I am going down a trail, the trail is clear and obvious; there is a big rock over there to the side of the trial...I look at the rock to avoid it, I carry on looking at the rock....I am weirdly drawn to the rock....I hit the rock.
It's very well know in mountain biking as a flaw in human perception.
Remedy - eyeball the trail ahead...make a mental note of route...glance at rock to make sure you know it's not a threat...look back at the trail....DON'T LOOK AT THE ROCK...DON'T LOOK AT THE ROCK....keep your eye on the trail...pass the rock safely. Likewise with a root across the trail - look at it, judge if it's a threat...then ignore it and ride over it, continuing to look forward at the trail not down...
Same with skiing.... |
More often referred to as 'target fixation'. It's a common cause of motorcycle crashes, on and off track too.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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.
http://www.deepsnowsafety.org/index.php/
I once read somewhere (perhaps there!) that tree well incidents are more common than avalanche incidents in North America.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 19-01-14 17:35; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Pyremaniac, Im glad Ive not been able to afford to go yet was completely ignorant to them
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Shimmy Alcott, I had heard of tree wells and knew they were dangerous to snow users in terms of getting stuck in them. I assume that they form where the branches of a tree prevent as much snow falling close to the trunk as further away from it thus creating a 'hole' into which someone can fall. I didn't know that a trick for their avoidance was to look at the gaps in the trees rather than at the trees themselves.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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My personal approach to riding trees, and therefore avoiding wells and other hazards, is not to ride through the centre of the space between trees. Instead I ride with my board closer to one tree, the one I'm turning away from. That gives me the maximum amount of space to turn in. Then if I fall, my board slides into the tree I'm riding round. There's no way my head's going in there because my board's in the way. It helps if you have a board which you can slow down without turning.
I have rescued many boarders and skiers from wells - the good news about that is that you've generally plenty of time. I once asked a guy in a tree well if he minded if I complete a photo-shoot before digging him out, and he was fine with that. "Buddy" systems reduce but don't eliminate the risk.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Pyremaniac, I like that web-site - more reading for my pair I think.
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| Quote: |
I hit the ignore button for CG because he posts such twaddle - now need to do the same for k
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Eh what? Innocent bystander here 
k
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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None of the above is "twaddle" - it's factual, sourced/linked, written to inform and maybe reduce tree collisions ... to help discussion of avoidance techniques.
A fatality has been reported in the past 24 hours, as reported in the opening post.
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FAQ
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Unfortunate that your name should be associated with this by accident but you don't qualify in any way shape or form in all of this and I'm sure 
