 Poster: A snowHead
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Guys, opinions please.
I am currently in the PDS and taking group lessons with ESF, class 3.
This week we have been skiing mostly off piste but firmly within the resort boundaries.
Should i be concerned that the instructor has given us no safety advice and no one carries any safety equipment for off piste skiing?
I know that there are low risk areas but surely this is bad practice.
For those that that know the area yesterday we were skiing knee deep powder in the corridors to the right off the swiss wall (as you look at it).
This is my first time in such areas and although i enjoyed it there was something in my mind that was saying 'this isn't right'
Am i being silly?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 18-01-14 8:14; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you are not happy with the situation tell the instructor.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This is traditional, in my experience.
There's a been a change of culture in skiing - I've spent countless hours with ski instructors, off piste, without avalanche safety kit, across the Alps, over the decades. Whether this instructor is operating within the code of practice of the ESF is for someone to state, with cited evidence of their rule-book.
Nothing else is worth discussing, in my view, except that some of us choose to ski off-piste without the kit. I'd probably therefore ski with that instructor, if I thought he/she was a sensible individual with loads of experience. The most important issue here is the choice of terrain in the prevailing conditions - not the kit.
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Corduroy, regardless of whether that is ESF practice or not, I wouldn't go anywhere off piste without at least a beacon on my body, and usually my companions wouldn't go anywhere with me if I didn't have shovel etc with me. I find that very strange the the instructor is doing that with you. Never experienced that before.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Corduroy, yes in general it's a bad habit to get into. Ask the instructor what their take on it is.
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| Quote: |
I find that very strange the the instructor is doing that with you. Never experienced that before.
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You need to get out more - they do it all the time. Zillions of them at it here yesterday, powder three metres from the piste.
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It's quite common in my experience, and not just with ESF, that instructors (as opposed to guides) take clinets off-piste without any gear. It's almost always close to the piste. My kids got very cold and tired one day last year (awful weather) so I took their lesson. We spent it off-piste with no gear. Did feel odd at the time. You are really betting on local knowledge and caution but we know those can fail...
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Corduroy, yes you are being silly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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IME a lot of French instructors (not just ESF) take even quite beginner lessons off piste (though not leaping down couloirs or on steep wind-laden slopes). The kids, in particular, love it - especially little wibbly narrow tracks through trees, which many adults (me included) hate.
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i love those wibbly narrow tracks through the trees !!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Off hand, if you mean the couloirs off Cubore, I'd suggest that's not great practice...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Depends what you mean by off-piste.
In bounds off piste is very different to out of bounds off piste. Speaking in a general, non-specific way, I wouldn't think too long about taking students on a lesson off-piste (assuming their abilities allow it) but within the resort boundaries. The terrain within the resort is looked after, managed well and controlled. Just means it hasn't been bashed.
If you're talking about beyond the resort boundaries, then yes, take the kit with you. But within? Personally don't see you being at a much greater risk 3 metres to the left of the piste marker than you are 3 metres to the right.
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thedrewski,
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In bounds off piste is very different to out of bounds off piste
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This is not a European concept.
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don't see you being at a much greater risk 3 metres to the left of the piste marker than you are 3 metres to the right.
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There could well be a terrain feature that makes it less safe. A high proportion of avalanches (I can't remember the exact figure) happen close to the piste.
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You know it makes sense.
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A huge amount of European off-piste, near or not-so-near the piste, is worth a punt in relation to avalanche risk. It's an instructor's job, based on all sorts of factors and experienced judgment, to make the call (if his/her employment codes allow it) as to whether it's skied without avi kit.
Long may this approach continue. Yes, occasionally people die or are seriously injured, but we pursue this activity for its spirit of freedom.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I agree that in this case choice of terrain is more important. I see ski schools going "off-piste", which is usually just some bumps between runs, all the time. When it's considered dangerous they will be roped off.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Comedy Goldsmith, ability and willingness to take risks are totally subjective. You may wish to "take a punt", others might not wish to place their faith in someone of whose intelligence/experience/knowledge they are probably completely ignorant.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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I find that very strange the the instructor is doing that with you. Never experienced that before.
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You need to get out more - they do it all the time. Zillions of them at it here yesterday, powder three metres from the piste. |
I get out plenty thanks & I plan to continue doing so.
Of course if you're only three meters from the piste then that's ok...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wow. I find myself in agreement with DG. I can remember going off piste with a Tignes ESF instructor, way back, in a group which was getting a taste of off-piste. Given that the terrain under the snow was OK, the risk must have been minuscule, and the lesson was great fun. We didn't have avvy gear with us. Of course, appearances can be deceptive - there were places that looked just fine in Flaine which were actually no-go areas because of large holes (I guess the underlying rock was limestone) - but of course the local instructors would have know those. In one instance there was a hole immediately to the side of the piste where it was quite narrow. Not obviously life threatening - but whilst I was there a skier went out of control and landed in it, and was injured.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I would guess that the large majority of people going off down the side of pistes dont have any avi gear. Its an acceptable risk that really most mountain users accept (except the large majority of snowheads i'm sure  )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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achilles, he was very, very nice, though.  He just said, follow me, and I did.
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Seems ironic that ESF put a lot of energy into using safety arguments to justify why only the most qualified instructors are allowed to compete with them, but then apparently are less than obsessive about safety themselves. Taking pupils significantly off piste (which was the case at the start of this thread), without safety gear, is equivalent to sailing without a lifejacket - yes, there may be calm days in sheltered waters where there's frankly very little risk, but most sailing instructors would still set a good example by insisting you wear one.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eddiethebus, it's a risk most lift users are pretty ignorant of and get away with you mean? There are loads of completely benign and boring bits of off piste right by the piste and some that in the wrong conditions will happily bury you. Last year someone scooting down a short steep section of moraine and was buried right by a red piste.
As someone said terrain selection is key but when you get into terrain that could avalanche then you should carry rescue gear because decision making can never be 100% accurate. Are you in avalanche terrain or not? I don't think the average holiday skier has any ability to tell. Hopefully though a ski instructor is making good decisions and sticking to completely benign terrain if he's skiing with a group without rescue gear.
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Steilhang, I think what is interesting about that shot is the amount of ski lines that lead up to the break in the snow. I've been learning a little about it and understand that the slope angle is important. I assume that is what they term a slab avalanche? The information I've found suggests that unless the snow is very wet they mostly occur between 30 anad 45 degrees. It's difficult to tell from that shot, but the slope doesn't seem overly steep yet the slide has still occurred. I bet anyone who went down there the day before looked twice when they saw what had happened, but it is a salutory picture I think.
I am also concerned that when I send my kids off with their private instructor they go off piste to a certain extent (The whole point of these sessions is that I hope the instructor will take them where I can't go for some fun!) and the instructor doesn't carry 'gear' to support this. Last year, just for slight peace of mind the kids carried transceivers at my instigation - at least they had two between them (though they are bit small to dig and probe yet) and I would assume that an instructor would have known what to do with one. They will also carry them this year.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sounds dodgy. I wouldn't encourage someone else to do it, I don't think the ESF should be encouraging anyone to do it, and even if just to set an example and get into good habits I believe that they should be carrying the right kit for offpiste.
Next question - do you have insurance for the skiing you are doing? If they are taking you off piste, what happens if you get injured?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
| achilles, he was very, very nice, though. He just said, follow me, and I did. |
Did he mention bending your knees?
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| Julian T wrote: |
| Seems ironic that ESF put a lot of energy into using safety arguments to justify why only the most qualified instructors are allowed to compete with them, but then apparently are less than obsessive about safety themselves. |
There you have it. The ESF gods are able to make these life and death decisions where mere mortals are not qualified to do so
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You know it makes sense.
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musher,  ( x 2 )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Well quickly on this point the DDJS are doing instructor / guide controls in the Espace Killy today and approaching groups going off / coming back on piste and asking the professional for their Carte Pro (qualification card) and also checking what equipment they and their group have on them. Certainly if someone is not qualified to be leading off piste they will be in serious S***t and if they are qualified but without sufficient gear (and their group) then I am sure some strong words will be had to all concerned.... they are trying to tighten things up to stop bad press from accidents - at least if people have transceivers for example then they are more likely to stand a chance if something slides!
And yes there is no such thing as 'just of the side of the piste' - that area is uncontrolled and like the photo above you can get into trouble very close to the piste ALTHOUGH it is probably less likely. Off piste is just that - uncontrolled / pisted.
My colleague and his group were controlled this morning and they were impressed with the level of gear that everyone was carrying.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think this is consistent with my experience in serre chevalier in a private lesson. I was taking off piste under the chair to the top of Monetier. To e fair while we were going up the lift he was pointing out where we were going and saying never go down there or over there as there are sometimes slips.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I just have a passing interest in this, but 3m either side of the marker doesn't wash for me. On piste surely the snow is normally bashed, compacted and shoved sufficiently into place that under normal conditions it is going to stay put, but off piste this doesn't happen. I've seen 2 actual pistes that have needed to shut because snow has fallen onto them from avalanches that would have been less than 3m away. I've also skied many places where the terrain is completely different <3m from the piste. I personally can't see how that 3m off-piste argument stacks up.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Having just read Chatel Snow's friends account of being caught in an avalanche, and seeing Steilhang's pic above, I can't see I would take the risk to go without it.
At the end of the day, why would you NOT have proper safety gear?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 2-02-14 14:48; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Mistress Panda wrote: |
| ....Next question - do you have insurance for the skiing you are doing? If they are taking you off piste, what happens if you get injured? |
Having the right insurance for what you are doing has always been the individual skier's experience, IME. For my SCGB Freshtracks holidays, there was a specific requirement to have significant cover. Apart from them, though, I have never been challenged as to whether my insurance covered me for the off-piste skiing I was about to undertake - not even by fully qualified mountain guides.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
And yes there is no such thing as 'just of the side of the piste' - that area is uncontrolled and like the photo above you can get into trouble very close to the piste ALTHOUGH it is probably less likely. Off piste is just that - uncontrolled / pisted. ... |
I'm sure you're not suggesting that the evil killer avalanches magically stop at the side of the piste. They do not recognise those boundaries, and people die on piste from slides.
Sure, in general the risk is greater away from the pistes, and a very small number of people die from them.
Normal people will continue to ride safely between runs, under lifts, all the usual stuff. So to answer the original question, I'd not worry about it at all, but if you are, then stop doing it. You can always fill the time in by complaining about those of us who continue to enjoy our sport
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| dennisp wrote: |
| At the end of the day, why would you NOT have proper safety gear? So you can boast to a chalet girl later?? |
Not actively disagreeing with you... but where do you draw the line? Do you only get into cars with racing seats, 5-point harnesses, roll cages and a helmet with neck brace? If not, why not? When you walk the dog do you take a full walking survival kit inc GPS, space blanket, etc?
I appreciate those are hyperboles, but the point behind them stands.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
most sailing instructors would still set a good example by insisting you wear one
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no, not in cruisers IME. It all depends......
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FWIW I have taken standard wintersports DogTag insurance for quite a few years and if anyone needs it the policy does explicitly state that off-piste is included at no extra charge - might be useful to someone.
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