 Poster: A snowHead
|
I'm really in two minds about buying one. I ski off-piste around 4 weeks a year, sometimes with guides, other times with mates, including some touring. Current avalanche avoidance tactics based mainly on being aware of slope aspect, recent wind direction, weather etc. Not an expert by any means but some experience built up from many years climbing before starting skiing. On balance I'm probably cautious in missing out on some good relatively safe skiing rather than being gung ho.
Cost - well accept that skiing is not a cheap sport. How do people find the extra weight? Extra hassle of flying? (I've read the sticky in equipment and Tim Shepherd's info) and is anyone tempted to go at a slope with an airbag they may otherwise give a miss? (be honest now)
I'm attracted by versatility of the Vario system
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I have the Vario ABS system and love it. I generally use the ultra light 18lt sack but also have a 25lt for longer days. I went for the shorter back length (I'm just under 5'10") and don't notice the weight. I've never had a problem flying with it, just pack the canister and trigger in hold luggage and use the rucksack as hand luggage. The clip on stretch helmet carrier also is great for taking food, books etc through airports. I've had my hand on the handle once when I had my feet swept out from under me in a very small localised slide of approx 10m but stopped before I decided to pull it. I haven't ever been tempted to ski something that I wouldn't have done without it, if anything I am more cautious these days after having a couple of near misses.
Given that I now probably spend more time off the piste than on it it's a no brainer for me.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
Avalanche Poodle, I know nothing about those things. If you do pull the handle, presumably you have to buy a new gas cylinder (like a life jacket) but can you re-pack the canopy/balloon and re-use?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
pam w, yes, but from what I understand, not necessarily so easily that when a bag is set off, that it can be repacked & made good to go again with a refilled cartridge particularly quickly (i.e. while out and about skiing). I'm told that this is creating contemporary problems in off-piste guided groups equipped with loan airbags because some customers will pull their emergency handles at the slightest sluff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Pretty certain that I'll get one for the coming season. Have been looking on and off for the last couple of years, after liking the snowpulse I became more attracted by the ABS vario during last season, but the new mammut snowpulse ride protection 22L now looks like it might be the one.
The increased head protection offered by the mammut snowpulse seems like a good feature to have.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
On the rocks, you should definitely go for it. Cost- less than 2 days of priv guide. On basis of 4 times per year, easy to calculate that over 4 or 5 years it is not so steep. Weight- would be great to go off-piste without even rucksack but you need probe and shovel anyway. Just get smallest lightest one but know that won't be enough if yoi ever plan on touring. Airplanes- don't even think about it- just don't tell them you have it and in case of extreme unlikelihood they go through your luggage, just have copy of bag's specs and airline regulations to hand and apologise you forgot to inform airline in advance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On the rocks, not noticed the weight being an issue "out in the field", feels heavy in the hotel, but no an issue on the hill IMHO
Only flown with it to Japan, had some issues with the internal flight, but all was fine in the end....
Not skied a slope with the airbag that I wouldn't without....
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
The cylinders are actually free to recharge I think if you use it in a documented avalanche. Failing that they only charge a small amount to refill them. I bought mine from here http://www.snowsafe.co.uk/
I did the initial upgrade to a carbon cylinder as it has a decent effect on reducing the weight from the steel ones.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
OK... Carbon costs £85 quid if you swap it for one of the steel versions that come with the bag. They can only be filled by the manufacturer though, this costs £30. If I ever pull mine on a trip (that should be in Boris') I'd just go to the nearest supplier and buy a steel canister.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I was wondering if there is an added benefit to the carbon cylinder in that they don't show up as much on airport X-rays at airports where staff are less informed about airbag backpacks (or more paranoid)
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
peanuthead With regard to not telling the airline....I'm aware that fellow Snowhead Bergmeister has had more than a bit of hassle travelling with his & Mrs B's airbags. They have tried taking them in hand luggage & also in checked bags & have always had hassle (despite IATA regs saying they can be carried). They've almost missed flights after being summoned back to check in after the canisters were detected in hold luggage - not much fun on our catskiing trip to Canada with them last new year....
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
mountainaddict, when I got mine, the guy in shop did explain re there being some issue on N American flights but not applyng to European- I think the carbon cannister not being allowed over there? Maybe someone can enlighten us. They are all ok in Europe. Problem that appears most common is attendants at check in desks on this side have no idea if legal or not, don't know who to ask, and when SHs have informed them in advance the message has not got through. The cannisters all comply with regulations in Europe and simplest thing would appear to bew not drawig complication on oneself
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
On the rocks, I think your psychology may be flawed if you are thinking of buying a bag to encourage you to try riskier terrain. I know you probably aren't but it's one possible interpretation of what you've written. The best airbag is one that never gets pulled outside of training scenarios.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| fatbob wrote: |
| On the rocks, I think your psychology may be flawed if you are thinking of buying a bag to encourage you to try riskier terrain. I know you probably aren't but it's one possible interpretation of what you've written. |
Not at all, but I was genuinely interested if anyone had been tempted to give something a go in a marginal judgement call just because they have an airbag. I think that the importance of terrain awareness is often under rated. Just look at the numerous utube posting showing people digging their mates out; they usually start with skiing a slope that I would give wide berth. Of course we can all make mistakes and can get caught out, hence my thoughts on buying an airbag.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Does anyone know if there are any deals out there at the moment?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I've got a couple of Snowpulse bags. As above, no problem at all with the weight. I've never flown with them, so can't comment.
Regarding the remark about pulling at the slightest sluff, I was talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago who left it slightly too late to pull the trigger, tried to ski out of it, and then found he couldn't get his hand to it after he was taken off his feet - lesson learned
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
i would be interested in one that also gave plenty of space for touring, does such an abs bag exist?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
On the rocks, it's a really interesting question. Of the extremely small sample I have observed, there seems to be three populations that I have observed who buy ABS packs.
1. Professionals: guides and pisteurs who simply need to keep their probabilities down.
2. Frequent randonneurs/ off piste skiers; who would prefer to keep probabilities down but aren't so worried about weight.
3. The group I am afraid I probably fall into, being those who know a little about the risks we take, try and minimise them, but feel that we may take too many, too often.
The is definitely a population of randonneurs who don't feel the need based on their own experience, perceived capacity to plan and route taking.
There is a really interesting article lurking somewhere by Bruce Tremper detailing his opinions... Worth a look.
P.S. I do not know enough about this stuff for you to base anything on what I might write.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
I've never had any problems taking my snowpulse on planes. I still have the box the cartridge came in and put it in that before packing it in my hold bag.
As others have said, carry the all documents on me as well but have never told the airline.
ractys, there is a snowpulse that has a 45 litre capacity. As people have said they're not heavy on the back but in the hand they are. Would have thought the full 45 litre pack would weigh a considerable amount more than a pack you'd take touring.
When I was in Au Vieux Campeur in Albertville in April they had the 45l ones (without cannister) with quite a hefty price reduction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| ractys wrote: |
| i would be interested in one that also gave plenty of space for touring, does such an abs bag exist? |
The ABS Vario system allows you to get the base unit with interchangeable packs from 15litre to 40 litre
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Seriously guys your all going on about re-filling the gas canister. If you were caught in an avalanche and actually had to pull the rip cord in anger, I very much doubt you would ever use it again.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Patch wrote: |
I've got a couple of Snowpulse bags. As above, no problem at all with the weight. I've never flown with them, so can't comment.
Regarding the remark about pulling at the slightest sluff, I was talking to a friend a couple of weeks ago who left it slightly too late to pull the trigger, tried to ski out of it, and then found he couldn't get his hand to it after he was taken off his feet - lesson learned |
Yes
You are supposed to pull it at very first indication you are being caught
It must be extremely hard to get to handle once your legs go flying. Does anyone know what % of avi incidents do skiers manage to declench the bag?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
peanuthead, there's a really interesting Bruce Tremper article running thru' the stats...
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| under a new name wrote: |
| peanuthead, there's a really interesting Bruce Tremper article running thru' the stats... |
I ve read that but my question is always this- in his stats, how does he calculate the "successful" unreported avalanche airbag users ? They can't be zero ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
^ Read the article.... As you say it is impossible to quantify the numbers - However it is also clear that airbags are certainly not guaranteed to save you *if* you make a mistake.
http://utahavalanchecenter.org/blog-avalanche-airbag-effectiveness-something-closer-truth
Bottom Line:
Ignore the 97% number and the 3% number. My best guess is that avalanche airbag packs will probably save a little more than half of those who would have otherwise have died in an avalanche. They will never save all of them because 1 out of 4 will likely die from trauma of hitting trees and rocks on the way down and an additional 1 out of 4 will probably end up in a terrain trap (deep burial), buried by a secondary avalanche or caught in an avalanche that does not travel far enough for the inverse segregation process to work (larger objects rise to the surface).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 24-06-13 23:22; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I did - still did nt see a variable for "unreported" deployment.
What do you think the variable may be for untrained deployment? As an ex-skydiver, where there is a large amount of "dry" deployment training, I find the concerns on refill cost/hassle a little worrying.
"For various reasons, not all people who wore airbags were able to deploy them. So if you include these cases, WEARING an avalanche airbag would have saved about a third of those who would otherwise have died..."
Is there more of a case for practicing deployment drills?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
^ Well if it was unreported then clearly no ones knows 
The key point however is that just because a skier deployed doesn't automatically mean that the airbag played a role in saving them.
This is something that has skewed previous statistics published by ABS etc.
People like the comfy idea that if they f--k up an ABS will save them if they pull the trigger.
The reality is proving to be somewhat different, especially in high consequence terrain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Well if it was unreported then clearly no ones knows
The key point however is that just because a skier deployed doesn't automatically mean that the airbag played a role in saving them.
This is something that has skewed previous statistics published by ABS etc.
People like the comfy idea that if they f--k up an ABS will save them if they pull the trigger.
The reality is proving to be somewhat different, especially in high consequence terrain. |
Could you substuit transceiver for airbag in these comments and them still be 100% valid?(ie deployed= wearing etc.) And doesn't that just mean we are moving on to use another piece of off piste tech to make our lives a bit ( on balance) safer?
I am trying to be serious btw, not just trolling about! I suppose from my point of view, I just can't see why you would not consider an airbag if it was available to you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
On the refilling aspect then the cost is basically due to the shipping of full cylinders, not the cost of refilling, I will always exchange cylinders free of charge if they are swapped out from my little office.
There are a number of Touring airbag packs around Mammut have a new RAS 45 which is pretty light, the other pack is the new Ortovox ABS pack which can be used as a 32 or a 39 L bag the ABS part is also removable.
The other point on practise is that you can do this on the Mammut Snowpulse bags without the cylinder attached, you still have to pull the handle as hard as in a real situation, my tip is stand in front of a full length mirror while practising this means you can see as well as feel the handle which I think helps in real situations.
I am often asked about using a transceiver as well as an airbag, the answer is YES you need both and a shovel and probe.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Kel wrote: |
| Seriously guys your all going on about re-filling the gas canister. If you were caught in an avalanche and actually had to pull the rip cord in anger, I very much doubt you would ever use it again. |
Why???
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
| mismash...we are moving on to use another piece of off piste tech to make our lives a bit ( on balance) safer? |
| Quote: |
| On the rocks Of course we can all make mistakes and can get caught out, hence my thoughts on buying an airbag. |
^ the technology is not what makes you safe!
People love the comfortable idea that an airbag (or beacon) will probably save them if they are in a big avalanche.
The reality from the best available statistics is that....
- only approx 30% of buried victims will be located alive using a beacon.
- no more than approx 50% of victims, who would have otherwise been buried, will be saved by an air bag.
There were 4 or 5 high profile cases this winter in Europe of people wearing airbags who didn't survive.
Something to consider. Of course air bags have a role to play - but, to state the obvious, its not wearing the airbag / beacon that makes you safe(er).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Incidentally the best air bag depends on where you are skiing...
FWIW I will probably end up buying a BCA float 22 this autumn.
It is light weight, comfortable and plenty space for lift serviced or easy day tours.. Plus it is also good value at £350-400.
Ideally for bigger ski tours I would prefer a bigger pack with space for glacier rope, crampons (etc).
However the larger 35L+ packs are too big and cumbersome for daily everyday use or lift serviced skiing.
So may just accept that on such 'longer ski touring' missions I will save the extra weight and go without an airbag (as I have done for 15+ years).
If you are going to buy 2 packs (one big / one small) then the Mammut RAS system looks great.
Wild snow have the best summary of options on the web.
http://www.wildsnow.com/5014/avalanche-airbag-backpack-overview/
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 25-06-13 9:46; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
Kel wrote:
Seriously guys your all going on about re-filling the gas canister. If you were caught in an avalanche and actually had to pull the rip cord in anger, I very much doubt you would ever use it again.
Why???
|
Yes, I would love to know too!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
So, stop skiing / riding off-piste? hmmm. I think not (assuming you survive with all important bits intact).
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Incidentally the best air bag depends on where you are skiing...
FWIW I will probably end up buying a BCA float 22 this autumn.
It is light weight, comfortable and plenty space for lift serviced or easy day tours.. Plus it is also good value at £350-400.
Ideally for bigger ski tours I would prefer a bigger pack with space for glacier rope, crampons (etc).
However the larger 35L+ packs are too big and cumbersome for daily everyday use or lift serviced skiing.
So may just accept that on such 'longer ski touring' missions I will save the extra weight and go without an airbag (as I have done for 15+ years).
If you are going to buy 2 packs (one big / one small) then the Mammut RAS system looks great.
Wild snow have the best summary of options on the web.
http://www.wildsnow.com/5014/avalanche-airbag-backpack-overview/ |
Its the one I bought - from here : http://www.auvieuxcampeur.fr/hiver/securite/systeme-de-securite-avalanche-et-respirateur/airbag-float-bca/sacs-a-dos-compet-avec-systeme-de-ballon-gonflable-airbag-bca/float-22-sac-airbag-sans-cartouche.html € 349 plus cartouche at €105 plus further 10% if you have their loyalty card. Very pleased with it. more than enough space for day/lift accessed stuff. Shovel compartment not ideal, i m using a large K2 backside shovel that has the "hoe" option and the "blade" piece makes the pack rub a little when using it for lift accessed stuff, would nt be a prob for proper no lift day tours. When I bought it , dealer material showed that the "airbag" was designed as removable but and switchable to the larger 3x L sized bag but not sure if the empty bags will come on this year with the purchase of BCA by K2. Hope that helps!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
^ didn't realise the BCA airbag was removable to be added to other packs.
though it seems you can currently buy the larger (32L) pack on its own.....
IMHO the 22L is perfect for a days skiing. The 32L looks ideal for longer tours, but perhaps a little heavy / bulky for lift serviced day outs.
It is the same dilemma for all the other models (Mammut, ABS etc)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Haggis_Trap, Yep just about all the airbags for this coming season, (except ABS) are removable and swapable (if thats a real word)
This has caused some confusion  Especially with the Mammut and Snowpulse airbags.
The Wildsnow airbag review is OK however you must remember that things are changing pretty quick and the review is now a little out of date, plus written with a very US view point on many issues.
On the BCA Float's then the system to remove and swap over to the larger bags is OK but not something you would want to do to often as its a bit of a pain, the other systems are much easier and simpler.
We tested the BCA Float over the whole of last season, to be fair to the bag, it does what its says, its light and pretty good for lift based off piste and at a very good price point, IMHO I would recommend the Float bags for people using a couple of weeks a season, I would not recommend for whole season use, the one we used did not survive the season 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
