ESF Level for a 3 year old

A snowHead

Hi all,

I'm looking for a spot of help in interpreting ESF's ski school levels for kids - their English language website is in Franglais and I can't find an answer for my particular predicament anywhere.

I have two daughters aged 3 and 5 who are inseparable (not literally cojoined, but they do like each other a lot).

Last year I put the 5 year old, then aged 4 and a bit of a wet blanket, in Piou Piou club, she got the Piou Piou badge (as did most of her classmates, though maybe 5 of them out of 30 also got Ourson badges), and the instructor said she should go into an Ourson class this year.

This year the little one is ready to ski. She is more confident and sporty (in as far as pre-schoolers can be sporty), and big and strong for her age. Would it be possible to put her straight into the Ourson class, or does she need to go into Piou Piou club first at that age?

I want them to ski together in the same class as soon as possible, but I don't want to bore the big one or put the little one in a class where she is out of her depth.

Thanks!

A snowHead

Why don't you give the esf office a call and ask them if they can go into the same class? I guess the older one will have to go a bit slower in development if you do that though.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

How about lessons in a snowdome before you go?

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Get her some lessons first, even if you do manage to get her into the higher class she will soon (quite rightly) be bumped down if she isn't good enough and is holding the others back. Or if you can't do that and you still want them kept together I guess private lessons would be your other option

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Thanks for the responses. Just to be clear both Piou Piou and Ourson are beginner classes for pre-schoolers. My question I suppose is more what the Ourson class involves. It is described as:

"I got my "Piou-Piou". I already try to do some ski. Or I am 5 years old and I discouver the ski." (sic)

ie if you're 5 and you've never skied you go straight to Ourson. I don't see what innate ability a 5 year old has that a kid who is nearly 4 and big for her age does not, but maybe someone who has vicariously experienced Piou Piou and Ourson can tell me what the difference is. As far as I can tell it is just that Piou Piou is in the snow garden and Ourson is on the beginner slope.

cheers!

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Let me suggest this again.

Why don't you call the ESF office and ask them what they think.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

What emwmarine says, could be down to something like child protection issues, for example my 18YO daughter who is trainee teacher would be OK to work with your 5 year old but couldn't work with your 4 year old.

After all it is free

why don't you call the ESF office and ask them? wink

Fatenbread, you could call the ESF office but I don't think it will help you much as when you get there they will do what they need to anyway. Your best chance of keeping the girls together is to make sure both are capable of being in the Ourson without being demoted. Piou Piou badge means nothing really, its the badge they get for turning up. Ourson is the first ability badge. I would get them to a dome or dry slope and make sure they are comfotable in the skis and boots, can shuffle around in them, can do a little straight run, can get some idea of a snowplough shape and stop, can get up if they fall over, can listen to and obey instruction, this is what they do in Piou Piou and for kids that get it they take them out of the garden and start them skiing proper i.e. Ourson. You don't mention which resort? Best of luck with it snowHead

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Thanks for the responses.

The ESF office thinks what their company policy tells them to think - the Ourson class is for 3 and four year olds who have a piou piou badge or for five year olds whether they have a piou piou badge or not. However as Sarah points out, a piou piou badge means next to nothing, hence I wanted the opinions of people who had the experience of an Ourson class through their kids, rather than the ESF "rules".

I would try to take them to an indoor slope in the UK beforehand, but we live in SE London so the nearest indoor snow slope is a bit of a trek, and the nearest dry slopes will not let kids under 5 on.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

So if it is company policy end of story, little matter of things like liability and insurance! Whatever our opinion is if ESF say no then it won't happen unless you book private lessons for your kids.

snow reports

The ESF have probably discovered that lots of 3 year olds can't cope with the "doing what they are told" bit, and falling over at the back of the line, and having to pick themselves up, wipe their own noses, etc. Some 3 year olds can, lots can't - I have both kinds amongst my grandchildren. The very best way of making sure they stay together and enjoy themselves is probably to "teach" them yourself, if you are a competent skier (ie able to ski backwards helping them form their snowploughs which is what an instructor will do in a private lesson). There's not much technical stuff going on in the baby classes. Just make sure you don't keep picking them up and keep them on really gentle, easy, slopes

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Fatenbread, maybe not what you wanted to here but my 3yr old was in Piou Piou classes in April. She is physically very mature (ie she is strong and the size of a 5yr old when she was there) however she didn't get on that well which really surprised us I think it was the emotional maturity rather than the physical / sporty aspects). My eldest (who was 6) was doing the ourson stuff, my three year old really wasn't up to it.

A snowHead

A snowHead

pam w, our youngest didn't wail - not her way, she just lay down. Also in our case with the weather it was mid April and she was far too hot, they insisted on that age being in the afternoon because it was warmer but by that point in the season it was pushing 20 odd in the sun.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Fatenbread, I agree with most of what other SH's have said on here. ESF expects you to "man/woman/boy/girl-up" in the Ourson class and to get on with it. No sitting watching cartoons like in Piou Piou. And, as pam_w says, enjoy it while you are still better than them!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Fatenbread, I hear you and I gave you information based on my own experience. If you want both your girls in Ourson then you will have to make sure in advance that the younger one is Ourson standard by doing as I suggested. Basically over the first day or so there is a lot of movement between Ourson and Piou Piou, the kid has to 'get it' to be allowed to do Ourson. It would be a rare 4 year old who would get it without prior preparation. Tell us where you are going, there are alternatives which may be better for your pair.

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sarah, Thanks - I didn't mean to imply any criticism of your post, which was exactly what I was looking for. We are going to Flaine - I've booked them both into Ourson and will be taking them to Castleford for a taster this month, and then out for an hour or so when we get there to make sure she is not totally out of her depth. However if the ESF instructors think she needs to go into piou piou (either before or after she starts the lessons based on the facts of the situation, which I concede is entirely likely) then I will happily defer to their professional judgement and skiing together will have to wait a couple of years, as the big one is too old for piou piou in any event.

As for other options, I haven't looked into them as I was very happy with ESF in Les Carroz last year.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Why that way round? The amount of time it takes ESF to move your 3 yr old daughter out of ourson could easily be enough to put her off skiing. Day one of potentially being worst in class, in lessons that are too long, with older kids, and potentially an increasingly grumpy instructor... If ourson is the right level, then she'll get 'promoted' into it, which has its own cachet. If it's not, then isn't it best to start her in the right level?

As previous posters have said, piou piou and ourson are very different. The former (at least here in argentiere) involves 30-60 mins skiing in a controlled area, then a decent indoors break for hot choc, loo stops etc. then a bit more skiing. Ourson is much longer periods of continual skiing. If it's 10 below then a 3 yr old might find this hugely challenging for their first proper ski trip. At age 3 I doubt you'll scar her skiing for life by putting her a level too low, but the level too high has a much higher risk of that.

Personally in your situation I'd shell out for private tuition, which seems to fit your needs better anyway. My 3 yr old progressed more in 2 hrs of private (by the end of which she got her ourson) than in the preceding week of ski school. This would enable you to have both children taught together, with some good personal attention that sounds like it would also suit the older child.

After all it is free

I suspect the ski school will put the 3 year old in Piou Piou to start with. The Oursons, in our area at any rate, go up chairlifts in the company of whatever adult happens to be next in the queue; possibly a clueless beginner. I'd hate to see a newbie 3 year old in that situation and I suspect the ski school wouldn't let it arise. I agree with snowdave that private lessons might be the best way to have the two girls learning together - which obviously makes sense in their family situation and given their personalities. 3 private sessions wouldn't cost much more than a 5 day course for them both and would be more fun for them than being separated.

There is a huge difference in my experience of teaching children between a three year old an a five year old. Most notably their ability to listen and take part in a group activity. The five year old will presumably have had a lot of practice at this through school, the three year old will not. The difference between piou-piou and Ourson is essentially down to tthat. They are doing basically the same skiing, but with different levels of activity and expectations on their independence. The two are often happening on the same or adjacent bits of slope, so the children will still be able to see each other, and moving from one to another is easy.

I wouldn't worry too much about your daughters' progression in skiing ability - that will happen whatever class they are in - but where they will have most fun, as if they don't enjoy it they won't learn anything and they won't want to do it again. Most little children quite like being in groups of similar ages, even if their abilities aren't perfectly matched.

My own youngest daughter (four years old) had her first trip to the Alps a few weeks ago, with lessons through ESF. She can already ski pretty well though having skied regularly in the UK. She was quite happy following me at a steady pace on green and blue runs on our first day there, so this presented a bit of a dilemma for which ESF level to choose, just as you have, especially as we booked some months in advance. We opted to let the ESF decide what was most appropriate, and they started her in Piou-Piou (I think) and then promoted her a level each day as they came to realise her ability. This worked well for my daughter as she felt a real sense of achievement in being promoted, and I think she would have been bored if they'd kept her in Piou-Piou all week, but she would have found it physically too demanding to spend a whole week skiing with the older children. Even though she can ski as well as some older children, she isn't so good at picking herself up independently after a fall for example.

So don't worry too much about exact ESF levels - there will be a lot of shuffling around throughout the week anyway.

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Thanks snowdave, pam w and kieranm. I'm sure ESF will start the 3 year old in Piou Piou as you say, and most likely keep her there, though I may look further into private lessons too so they can have the best of both worlds.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

You say you are in Se London so why go all the way to Castlefor? You have Milton Keynes and Hemel for snow domes but some dry slopes will do private lessons for 3 year olds. Not that mine are that young but I can highly recommend Aldershot ( 1 hour from most of se London) or Sandown Park, or for a reallyl tiny and gentle slope the slope at Christ's school in Guildford as it is small and really a gentle slope. I to am investigating Esf levels at my 13 year old has only had lessons in Andorra where they didn't use ant sort of grading system really, she's at the sometimes parallel sometimes not sort of stage. I agree the Franglais causes a bit of a problem.

snow reports

My 3yo has his Ourson, which was his first time in the ESF (although had a bit of skiing under his belt with us by that point to be fair).

At first was pottering along a rubber mat and straightlining short distances, hands on knees, etc.

Riding a drag lift unattended by the end of the week though, the ESF instructors don't do much nannying, the kids are expected to get on with it. We used to spy on him from the cafe, and if naughty (e.g. skiing off on his own without the group, which he did all the bloody time) he got a proper old-fashioned shouting at from the stern chap in charge! They'll also get grief from the liftie if they muck about. Make sure you're emotionally prepared for that kind of thing. This isn't some namby pamby thing, it's Europe where they do things properly!

You know it makes sense.

ansta1, don't you love the esf? I do for the reasons you mention. I would say that sometimes the esf instructors my kids have had did not speak much (any?) English, and this can be a problem.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

dobby, yep. Can't see many other instructors taking a group of 10, 11 and 12 year old down the grand Couloir.

A snowHead

Cheers ansta1 & Mr Pieholeo.

I had my elder daughter in ESF Les Carroz last year (4 at the time) and despite being a real softie she was pretty stoic compared to a lot of the other kids there. She could ski a bit by the end of the week, but she only got a piou piou - they didn't give out many oursons to the jardin neige kids as far as I could see.

I think being yelled at by impatient Frenchmen is character building for a kid.

Also, I mentioned going to Castleford because I will happen to be driving past it with the kids at some point this month - I wouldn't make the 400 mile round trip to Cas Vegas just for the snowdome!

A snowHead

Fatenbread, We have found that in general the ESF don't give badges and awards out willy nilly. This is good in my view and have always been happy with the instructors both our girls have been with.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Fatenbread, what pam w says (as usual- she is the voice of reason).

We have 3 kids now aged 12, 9 and 4. Altogether I guess we have about 30-40 weeks worth of various kids in ski school. There is a world of difference between what a 3 and 5 yr old can do skiing and the whole standing around with a group of stangers who speak funny is a biggie.

We certainly wouldn't worry about our kids being in different groups, although at one time some of our friends used to have private lessons to get round this (which really is the only way round it) but that was for a very specific reason, if you plan to do both (as you suggets now I hav etread the thread a bit) then that sounds great. Before I sign off I just have to mention my own (unique and searingly insightful) insight into the world of kids skiing: CONTINENCE. If not continent in all conditions (ie freezing cold, after hot chocolate in a ski suit, miles from the nearest loo and with a stranger in charge) you have to get creative. This means: embracing washing or embracing the 'hot leg' and not really bothering about it (that's what radiators in chalets are for after all) or 'the ski nappy' (a nappy used (in secret - don't tell th eski school) only when skiing and based on the one's used by astronauts hen they wear space suits ( a bit like ski suits see?)).

Best of luck - remember if they do pee it will pool in the boots- it can take quite a long time to work this out.

Help!!

ESF Level for a 3 year old

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