 Poster: A snowHead
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We're going skiing as a group to niseko and planning on doing a decent amount of off-piste.
To get those who are less experienced up to scratch, my friend suggested getting a guide for a couple of days - a good idea I think
But when I said to her that I wanted to be militant and insist that if we go off piste alone, people can only come if they have tranceiver, shovel and probe and they know how to use it!
She quoted an email she got from the guide she was planning on using which said that if you are in the in bounds off piste in Niseko you dont need avalanche gear because of the shallow slopes, good snow pack and trees etc?
This seems completely irresponsible to me? Am I missing something?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Cancel the guide and get one with a brain.
One or two people who know what they are doing, prepared to take a risk, read a slope blah blah blah, on their own head be it.
For someone who is touting him/herself as a guide to say that for a group.... I am really quite taken aback. It's reportable to the guides' supervising body I would say. Don;t touch with a bargepole, is my view.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Key here is INBOUNDS.
So avalanche controlled.
Go out the gates and it's obviously another matter.
I plan on wearing one every day I'm there though...
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Not at all familiar with Niseko, but is it the same deal as most places in the US, where everything "in bounds" is avalanche controlled and you can ski anywhere?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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That I can remember, there isn't too much inbounds off piste there; as most good stuff is roped off.
You are allowed outside the rope though, but that puts you out into the back country and so you should have the kit.
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thomaspassmore, When are you going?
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If a guide was going to just take you inbounds I suggest probably not a proper high mountain guide - just someone with local knowledge. You can ski that stuff without a guide (though I'd take the kit) - you need someone who will take you outside the ropes. I did read that most of the area is very gentle gradients (but super-light snow).
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Having skied in Niseko and elsewhere in Japan, I can safely say you NEED a transceiver the moment you step off piste.
The line between in and out of boundary line is very blurred in places and their avalanche control is at best crap.......many would say negligent.
If you get a guide who doesn't think you need a transceiver GET A NEW GUIDE!
I'm sorry to be militant but this is an area where ignorance regularly = DEATH! (most avie deaths in ski resorts don't ever make it to the papers in all countries, just the percentage of what goes unreported or just not talked about is higher in some cultures than others)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Now if you are talking about an off piste lesson to just learn to ski pow and you are genuinely talking about the stuff between the pistes not off in some hidden corners, with a qualified instructor not a "ski guide" then you are probably safe enough without .....but if you have a transceiver I'd wear it anyway.
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| thomaspassmore wrote: |
We're going skiing as a group to niseko and planning on doing a decent amount of off-piste.
To get those who are less experienced up to scratch, my friend suggested getting a guide for a couple of days - a good idea I think
But when I said to her that I wanted to be militant and insist that if we go off piste alone, people can only come if they have tranceiver, shovel and probe and they know how to use it!
She quoted an email she got from the guide she was planning on using which said that if you are in the in bounds off piste in Niseko you dont need avalanche gear because of the shallow slopes, good snow pack and trees etc?
This seems completely irresponsible to me? Am I missing something? |
Did the Guide offer to wash your car too? Or do some gardening?
But seriously clarky999 and Idris have it spot on.
I won't comment on the Guide Company as I don't know all the details.
If I'm teaching inbounds transitioning between piste and off-piste (open terrain and trees) then I don't wear a transceiver or require my students to wear one.
In my 8 winters in the Niseko Resort Area I have witnessed or heard of only one inbounds avalanche.
That was in late April when the snowpack underneath the Ace Pair Lift #2 slid on the sasa grass and ran about 100m.
This was before the lifts opened for the day, and no one was involved or injured.
The only fatalities inbounds have been through cardiac arrest.
If I exit through a backcountry gate I always wear a transceiver and carry a shovel & probe. As do the people I ski with.
There are many - both 'locals' and visitors - who don't wear transceivers or carry avalanche equipment when they exit the ski area through the backcountry gates.
It's not mandatory as it is in The Delirium Dive area of Sunshine Mountain, Alberta, Canada for example.
To my knowledge there have been two avalanches outside of the ski area in recent seasons, both resulting in partial burial and leg breakages.
And last season 1 Japanese skier and 1 Finnish skier died through suffocation when they fell into glide cracks - think a large crack similar to a crevasse.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
That I can remember, there isn't too much inbounds off piste there; as most good stuff is roped off.
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You must have skied a different Niseko United to the one I ski at
Exhibit A
Ian MacKenzie skiing Konayuki (a marked run) underneath the Hirafu gondola the day before yesterday.
I would say at least 75% of the pictures I post in my SR from Hokkaido are inbounds off-piste.
SR : HokkaidOH! 2013/14
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=104830
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Name the guide OP cos I'm coming to Niseko in January and will be looking for a guide and it sounds like one to be avoided.
Mike Pow, anyone you'd recommend?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| thomaspassmore wrote: |
| To get those who are less experienced up to scratch, my friend suggested getting a guide for a couple of days - a good idea I think |
Surely you want somebody who can teach if you are looking to improve their off piste skiing skills, or have I missed an obvious point? It might well be that whatever guide you choose is happy to teach, but you need to make sure that is understood when you book.
I've skied in Niseko for a few weeks. Wouldn't dream of doing so without a transceiver. If anyone, guide or not, can guarantee 100% that the snowpack won't slide on the terrain you are skiing would you really want to be skiing that terrain?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| If anyone, guide or not, can guarantee 100% that the snowpack won't slide on the terrain you are skiing would you really want to be skiing that terrain? |
Did you mean "cannot", Rob?
I can't see the point of looking for "100% guarantees" about anything to do with skiing. It's effectively a "100% risk" activity, and long may it remain so.
Whether people ski with transceivers, shovels, probes, helmets, mobile phones, airbags and the rest of it ... is their choice. My choice is to ski with none of this stuff and not to be expected to dig anyone else out (though obviously one would do so, with whatever's available). As for Niseko, the prevailing/historic avalanche risk is obviously a key factor in deciding whether to ski a slope ... as anywhere. I'd trust an old or well-seasoned local guide or instructor who's grown up on the terrain. If he/she is happy to ski a slope I'd be happy to do the same.
The last time I was with a group where transceivers were handed out (and obviously one must respect the person doing it and accept the loaned gift), the instructor (St Anton 'official' ski school, instructor of all-day off-piste group) dished them out with no training on how to use them. Needless to say, there were no shovels.
My friend Willy Bailey died in his twenties in an avalanche in the 1970s in Verbier. Hopefully one learns a bit about how risky this game really is, and takes a few informed chances. One would not wish to burden the rescue services.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| thomaspassmore wrote: |
| To get those who are less experienced up to scratch, my friend suggested getting a guide for a couple of days - a good idea I think |
Surely you want somebody who can teach if you are looking to improve their off piste skiing skills, or have I missed an obvious point? It might well be that whatever guide you choose is happy to teach, but you need to make sure that is understood when you book. |
Agreed.
And Shinsetsu Mountain Guides do both.
| Quote: |
| I've skied in Niseko for a few weeks. Wouldn't dream of doing so without a transceiver. If anyone, guide or not, can guarantee 100% that the snowpack won't slide on the terrain you are skiing would you really want to be skiing that terrain? |
I recall you skied inbounds and out of bounds in the same day, so wearing transceivers for the day makes perfect sense.
The beauty of Hokkaido is you can ski deep powder on very mellow slopes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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+1 to everyone who pointed out that off-piste is different in Niseko to Europe, there are plenty of marked ungroomed runs that I wouldn't even think of wearing a transceiver on.
The guiding situation is kind of funny here, there is a body that is supposed to regulate matters (NWGA), but as far as I know they don't enforce any sort of certification for member companies so it's quite hit and miss as to the quality and experience of the guide you will get.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| Mosha Marc wrote: |
That I can remember, there isn't too much inbounds off piste there; as most good stuff is roped off.
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You must have skied a different Niseko United to the one I ski at
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Well, my memory isn't what it.................what were we talking about again??
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith, even by your standards that poor advice. I'll reply more fully when I'm back from skiing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
I'd trust an old or well-seasoned local guide or instructor who's grown up on the terrain. If he/she is happy to ski a slope I'd be happy to do the same.
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Once I would have agreed with you. Since then though, I was lead by a 'well-seasoned (fully qualified) local' onto a steep face that was literally disintegrating beneath our feet and all around us. This resulted in one of our party being swept away, over a cliff. I prefer to make my own judgements about my safety now, with their 'expert advice' considered. I am also far more cynical and assertive in the opinions I express to guides - and funnily enough, the good ones seem to respect and appreciate this. So those who don't, can go work for someone else!
At the PSB, last week, Matt and Dave of Mountain Tracks gave a short talk on avalanche awareness and rescue. The stats they presented regarding self-rescue (if you're buried, the rescue services are really just body collectors) were sobering.
The difference in typical times taken to rescue someone, who was fully buried, with or without probe and shovel, suggested that without them, you virtually may as well not bother looking.
A transceiver is not expensive, probe and shovel even less so and once you're buried, you're not really in a position to order them off Amazon, even if their drone delivery could bring them straight to U.
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admin, I agree 100%. You are the client, and a good guide consults with you and is happy to answer questions and adapt plans. I still remember doing the half day off piste experience at Tignes and seeing our 'guide' (non mountain) be swept over the edge by a considerable avi he set off trying to clear a small cornice. It was the flattish ridge top that went 30 metres behind us, with 15 (three groups had met at the entry point) people standing within feet of the flowing snow river. Could have been very nasty.
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That's the thing though, isn't it: a few feet makes all the difference.
A few feet to put U in the safe zone, behind a rock or over the ridge.
Or a few feet may mean U get washed to the side rather than into the avalanche.
Digging a few feet more in a given time because U have a shovel instead of a ski.
Digging a few feet to the left or right of a victim because U didn't have a probe.
When it's a few feet of snow on top of U, it makes all the difference.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| ... Whether people ski with transceivers, shovels, probes, helmets, mobile phones, airbags and the rest of it ... is their choice. My choice is to ski with none of this stuff and not to be expected to dig anyone else out (though obviously one would do so, with whatever's available). |
I trust this is one of your debate inducing comments to fuel forum participation !
otherwise a new meaning of .. hanging by a thread
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Just to clarify ... I'd obviously obey any ski guide's stipulations as to equipment for a day's off-piste skiing, and rent it if necessary. There has to be communal responsibility in that situation, because of the mutual rescue implications.
Conversely, if I'm skiing with a bunch of people who don't use avalanche rescue kit ... then I won't use it (since I don't own it).
As long as skiing is an evocation of freedom, and avalanche rescue equipment isn't mandatory, then its use/cost should not be an imposition on people. People should be free to be free of it, if they so choose.
That's obviously a personal view/position. On the face of it, the Niseko guide (quoted in the opening post) presumably expressed a professional view. So what's the professional view of Niseko ski patrol, or the resort?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 17-12-13 15:51; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Comedy Goldsmith, when you ski without avy kit do you ski off piste? If you do, what sort of decision making do you employ to assess snow stability?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, 'Yes' to the first question. 'Low quality decision making' to the second question.
That's not intended to be facetious - simply honest.
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I have some some sympathy with Comedy Goldsmith here, even though I own avi kit and would wear it if skiing "proper" off piste.
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You know it makes sense.
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Sometimes avalanches occur in the most unlikely places / times (e.g. British man died in Lech today while touring with a guide, avalanche warning = level 1).
Some slopes have not avalanched for decades and then under certain circumstances let go catching even the most eperienced of guides out.
Should an avalanche occur anybody burried normally has only minutes to live unless they are dug out. While skiing offpiste, it's possible that I may trigger an avalanche that puts somone else in danger or someone might need my help. It's also possible that I may need their help. IMHO it's only fair that we all carry the equipment and learn how to use it or stay on the piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DB, +1
There should be (and for most people, I think there IS) a communal responsibility to help other mountain users in need, and to be appropriately equipped to do so (and to make any rescue of you/your group easier/safer).
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 18-12-13 0:36; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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admin, In this case it was blind luck. The guy was not aware of all the risks and after the event (he got badly tumbled and lost a pole) said that we were getting off the tops and heading for the forest. Two other chaps fro mthe same firm were in the same place with us all but they had placed their boarders in a safer position. We were standing 6 feet from the moving snow, too close for comfort.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
There should be (and for most people, I think there IS) a communal responsibility to help other mountain users in need, and to be appropriately equipped to do so (and to make any rescue of you/your group easier/safer). |
Sorry ... I really don't understand why that imposition (and cost) should apply to any typical off-piste skier on a mountain. Why are we (who don't expect the service for ourselves) obliged to become equipped rescuers of others?
You're welcome to express all that as an opinion ... but why does anything other than a law apply? Skiing is in danger of losing its vital - fundamental - freedoms on several fronts right now.
If I'm mucking about on the beach with a bucket and spade (admittedly useful in sand burial crises), I'm not expected to have a rigid inflatable lifeboat, defibrillator, first aid kit etc etc.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Comedy Goldsmith,
So if you are off piste and set off an avalanche which hits others, it's their hard luck?
If you become buried in an avalanche then the emergency services put themselves at risk to save you. If you don't have a transceiver they put themselves at greater risk as the search takes longer.
Without a transceiver your body may not be found until months later when the snow thaws - do you want your relatives to wait that long to bury you?
It takes a lot more effort to kill someone or yourself with a bucket and spade than a pair of skis (or a snowboard) offpiste.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 18-12-13 14:52; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith, because you are relying on the good fortune of having others equipped should you need rescuing as you have a fifteen minute window for the best chance of survival. Waiting for emergency response is on the whole going to take at the very least that long to get on scene. You might not be worried about death but at the very least you should wear a transceiver so a whole bunch of people don't have to have the harrowing experience of probing until they find your corpse. Mountain safety has always been a communal endeavour even between separate parties.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 18-12-13 10:42; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yes, I KNOW I shouldn't feed the TROLL
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If I'm mucking about on the beach with a bucket and spade (admittedly useful in sand burial crises), I'm not expected to have a rigid inflatable lifeboat, defibrillator, first aid kit
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No, but I carry the latter to the beach and have used in on my family and for the benefit of others. On a beach you are usually closer to rescue parties who also have an easier job getting to you. I don't ski off piste, but understand that it is possible to be several hours from external rescue even if you are in mobile phone reception to raise the alarm. I think it is the necessary very small window of 'survivable rescue time' that makes it more vital to be 'rescue' self sufficient when you ski off piste. The proximity of rescue parties is an important issue, and is probably why even hikers who can also be several hours from external support and outside mobile phone coverage are also encouraged to take full hiking kit with them. It seems quite selfish to other people that you might be skiing with that your attitude means all they could do is stand-by while you die of asphyixiation without the knowledge that they did at least try to help you. They would have to live with that for the rest of their lives. You would be dead so it wouldn't bother you.
Comedy Goldsmith, your attitiude suggests to me that you are the type who would also go hiking in the Lake District wearing t-shirt, shorts and flipflops carrying no map, compass, drink, food, waterproofs etc. Well, the only thing I can say is you carry on with that approach, you sound a worthy future contender for a Darwin award, perhaps you will have the satisfaction of winning it one day - oh-no you won't enjoy the satisfaction of it as you will be DEAD!!
NB. I assume that you have been hiking, I'd be interested in an HONEST admission of what you carry if/when you go hiking.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 18-12-13 10:43; edited 1 time in total
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Comedy Goldsmith, I think it's fundamentally just the right thing to do. You know you're going into a potentially dangerous place, you know there can be no 100% guarantee the slope will not slide, so I think you should be prepared for whatever happens. It's also a community thing; if someone from your community is in trouble, you do what you can the help them, whether they are part of your group or not. The same thing applies to pretty much any 'adventure' sport I can think of: kayaking, climbing (with the possible exception of in the 'death zone'), etc. You know that if you are involved in an accident, mountain rescue WILL come to get you. Look at all the fantastic (and harrowing) stories of guides and MR going out to rescue people on the Eiger in 'The White Spider,' for instance. Yes, they are volunteers, and as mountain people will be the last to try and ban people from exploring the mountains, but I think you have a duty to:
1. Keep yourself as safe as possible through good decision making
2. If poo-poo happens, self-rescue and be as self-reliant as possible
3. If the rescue services are involved, make their job as easy as possible.
Being caught in an avalanche without a transciever forces a large group of rescuers to search for hours with a probe line in a potentially dangerous place.
Acknowledging that risk and yet making no effort to mitigate it makes you very very selfish IMO.
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My friend Willy Bailey died in his twenties in an avalanche in the 1970s in Verbier. Hopefully one learns a bit about how risky this game really is, and takes a few informed chances. One would not wish to burden the rescue services.
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This rings very strangely compared to the rest of your comments, especially regarding burdening the rescue services with your (self-acknowledged) "low quality decision making," and no equipment.
Edit for grammar/typos.
Last edited by After all it is free on Wed 18-12-13 11:42; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CG so you don't carry this gear when you go off-piste, I re-iterate my question about hiking, but it also bumps into other issues. I assume you don't carry a first aid in a car either and I imagine you certainly don't have first aid training - wouldn't you feel a bit hopeless if you came across a bad RTA on a country road (a not uncommon occurance - I checked on an overturned car on the way to work yesterday morning in the dark) and had to stand by while someone bled to death? Yet if you had been in that car you might have been pleased that I had stopped and could attend to your injuries - yes? You would probably also ride bicycles and horses without helmets and if you could get away with it would probably also not wear a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorbike without a thought for the people who who have to live with the sight of you splattered all over roads for the rest of their lives etc. I think the big word here is 'SELFISH', in fact maybe you ought to team up with that Cambridge snow whatsit group  .
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I've said everything I have to say on this matter. And shall continue to ski naked off-piste, with a clear conscience, doing me best not to set off avalanches.
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