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segregated runs

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I had an interesting conversation at the weekend with the redoubtable Becci Malthouse of BASS in Morzine; the gist of which was that some places (parts of Avoriaz for example) are not great for teaching mid-level beginners as the pistes aren't that well segregated. That is, many blues are links/shortcuts/cruisers and so populated by more faster skiers than ideal for beginners classes to be mixing it up with. Apologies to all if I have misunderstood/misrepresented.

I think she has a point (she usually does...)

Question then, should there be more segregation of speeds on piste? Designated beginners areas (the way snowboarders seem to have their own space), etc. all come to mind as possible remedies.

Equally, should there be runs with "minimum speeds" as one finds in some swimming pools?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
David Murdoch,

No, don't really like this idea of carving up the mountain for different groups. Even though there might an intelligent point behind it, it still doesn't sit too well with me. I remember the Downhill at VD in '92 when they took out the whole Bellverde cable for the racers 1 week prior to the start. The lift served the whole hill not just the Face they were training on..!!

They may be one of two places that might benefit from this but I wouldn't like to see it as a general practice. How far do you go..?
Its acceptable for a lift/piste to be out of action for maintenance but even then we complain about that..!!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Rusty will chime in here...

Winter Park has a dedicated beginners area - and it's quite big. It works very well for both groups. I like the idea!
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In resorts where the main beginner areas also happen to be the main route back to the resort I think it makes sense to make these pistes "go slow". Seen so many accidents on that sort of slope.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Above Plan Peisey (Les Arcs) there is a large fenced debutantes area in the 'bowl' but ample space around it for those who want to go faster. Where the terrain and available space permit, surely they can only be a good idea to give improving beginners the chance to start moving around without impeding others. Got to be safer and probably more enjoyable for all on the slopes.
Minimum speed runs ??? No thanks. Unenforceable and a single limit does not take into account changes in conditions (esp poor viz.) which might make even the minimum too fast for safety.
Narrow green or blue runs back to resort need to be designated as 'go slow when busy'
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JT, agreed, taking out lifts, especially those serving entire areas seems unnecessary. I do think that maybe having individual runs made "slower" might be helpful.

kuwait_ian, I seem to recall the M1 on Cairngorm being a "racer" piste. Can't recall anything more than its existence however. I take your point about how one would police (and what to police!) Laughing
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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Fairly common over the pond to have slow skiing areas, which are patrolled, and anyone abusing them likely to be stopped, and ultimately to lose their pass.

Actually though I suspect that most (near) beginners find proximity at least as intimidating as speed, so the issue isn't just how fast people ski but how much space they allow less experienced slope users. A reasonable degree of speed, but passing at a distance generally causes less disruption in a lower level class than a (perceived) near miss at a slower speed.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Can't see it working in many places. Just the resources required to effectively police it would be costly let alone the subjectivity of the issues
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Okanagan said:

Quote:

Actually though I suspect that most (near) beginners find proximity at least as intimidating as speed, so the issue isn't just how fast people ski but how much space they allow less experienced slope users.


I agree with Okanagan, it is the near-miss experience, not the sight of someone really fast but clearly completely in control and very aware of others on the piste that worries me ~ but I have to say I am not sure about the "beginner" element to this. I am happy on most reds, and have done the odd black, and I am really pleased to watch people better and faster than me.

NOT HAPPY to be nearly run over by someone who is either out of control or thinks 'it's a laugh' Shocked to go really close to other piste users. Have to say, and probably opening myself up for lots of abuse here, but the scariest near-misses I have had have been with boarder lads, and I have got the feeling it was at least reckless if not intentional..... but having spoken (moaned!) to boarder friends about this, they say that boarders don't always have such last-minute manoeuvrability, and that skiiers can be really unaware, which causes the problems.

Cue - Heated Debate?!!!
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Caspar, This has come up in a prior thread. I think the real problem is historical. The more I read and listen, I learn that resorts developed to furnish competent skiers with a playground and the assumption has been that the newbies and learners will be guided around a limited part of the mountain by their instructors until they were good enough to join the main herd.

Today, with so many new people on the hill and often not taking advantage of training we have an infrastructure that's not designed for the user/consumer, it's breaking down . . . not badly, but this thread is an example of the issues being raised.

The resorts can't afford to redesign the piste contours to segregate and if you combine that with the rise in popularity of our sport, the only cure for this is enforcement and I'd rather that be by a self governing system of ability measurement rather than the arbitrary heel of the bean counters and lawyers.

So . . . let's have some genuine thoughts about how we can make the hill a safer place and not get each other's panties bunched! Little Angel
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Masque said:

Quote:

So . . . let's have some genuine thoughts about how we can make the hill a safer place and not get each other's panties bunched!


Assuming this bit was aimed at my comment rather than Caspar's one-liner, but willing to stand corrected.

I am not meaning to be argumentative about this really, but I do think there is scope in considering SOME segregation on the boarder / skiier lines on some suitable slopes. Some slopes are wide enough that you could direct skiiers down one side, boarders down the other. It wouldn't be necessary (or desirable) to do it on every slope, but perhaps just where there is a high density of traffic? Occasionally, there are two relatively similar pistes down the same mountain, one could be boarder the other skiier. I know this wouldn't suit everyone, such as a group of mixed boarders / skiiers, but it could only be a few pistes, and wouldn't be that different to half a group choosing to go down the red, the other the blue, and meeting at the bottom.

Interestingly, there are similar debates amongst (sea) surfers on boards and in kayaks. The surfboarders really don't like being near kayakers in surf as they feel vulnerable with a great plastic boat, paddles and helmeted kayaker bearing down on them; kayakers don't like being near surfers as kayaks are (generally) less manoeuvrable and so it is harder to avoid boarders, who seem to behave in less predictable ways. If you watch a group out on surf, the boarders and kayakers seem to operate a self-imposed segregation in some instances, which seems to benefit everyone, but this doesn't seem to work on the piste.

My comment wasn't meant to be 'cue a general ski -v- boarder debate' (some of my best friends are boarders! wink ); but a genuine comment about when I have felt most vulnerable on skis. This is a genuine thought, not a pant-bunching exercise!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Masque, that's a very interesting take on the problem, which I must admit had completely escaped my notice. Hmmm.

I must admit I wasn't suggesting boarder/skier separation, more fast/slow or competent/incompetent separation. I think the only way to do so would be to have extended beginner areas with speed restrictions, as often found in North America. Now I don't particularly like having to have them as I can ski faster than most under more control than most, but that's difficult for a "monitor" to determine. So you have to slow everyone down.

The most vulnerable I've felt in recent years is on the rare occasion I've tried boarding!! It's a useful exercise to understand what people are feeling.
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Quote:

but that's difficult for a "monitor" to determine

This was partly what I was getting at - and you have come to the obvious conclusion that you must slow everyone down. Does this mean that piste security will have to be equipped with speed guns and the like?

On a slight tangent - I will be trying my first week of boarding this season and am keen to see how I will feel about it all after a week on just one plank.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Caspar, I guess, unfortunately, you do. Speed guns don't seem necessary tho', at least I haven't seen them in use in the US.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Use those exploding dye security tags that shops use to protect stock from thieves. Your lift pass is included in them and they fit round the neck. When two people come into close contact they go off - spattering both with purple long lasting dye. This would also stop folk riding over your skis in queues, although keeping the required distance on chairlifts may be problematic.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
SkiBod, sorry, that wasn't a barb at you, just a general wish for a good discussion with maybe some thoughts that could be presented to the ski industry if we or Snowheads was ever asked to contribute
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Masque, glad about that ~ can't risk losing friends on my 10th post! Think I am a lone voice on my skiier / boarder thing anyway! And I would just add it is only a v small number of boarders that are the problem, not a general swipe at all boarders. However, still wonder if the real issue is too close rather than too fast, whether skiier or boarder.

Also, unless people have satnav (?) telling them their speed on them (and most don't), I'd guess most people don't know their speed, just whether they are generally faster or slower than others on that piste ~ so it is all getting quite relative and subjective. Whereas, you can very easily see if people are too close, out of control, or reckless. It is probably more about reckless attitudes to other's safety than actual speed?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Masque, I think you're right, also, (sic) that the infrastructure is fraying.

Now is that a function of easier entry to intermediate-hood? Or a general deterioration in consideration for others in what passes these days for society? (Ooops, that was MY curmudgeon).

It's slightly difficult to determine.

Also, to what degree is it likely to be "self-healing"? Perhaps enough of us will take up touring to make a difference? Perhaps the apparent drift of snowboarders into skiing will accelerate, leaving boarding in a similar state to skateboarding (in the UK at least)?

Many questions (all good ones tho'), but few easy answers?
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I think its natural that people will push themselves out of terrain that naturally fits their ability level. We must all have met people who say "I did a red today" even if we know they'll have done it by a combination of sideslipping & snowploughing.

Organised beginner or family zones work very well in North America except where there is a critical lift at the bottom of them. When better skiers are forced through these areas then conflict will inevitably result.

Personally I quite like places where the beginner areas are mid mountain with steeper runs below. They get better snow quality & I get to blast down last run of the day knowing that they'll have downloaded and not be fighting their way down.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Should the ability/development of equipment come into this discussion as well, does today's equipment allow higher speed and turning to be achieved by those who haven't been trained to handle / use it in the right places?
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boredsurfin, I think that's exactly part of the problem Masque if referring to.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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I agree with David Murdoch, that segregation should not be considered between type of slope users - a good and considerate boarder will be able to coexist with a good considerate skier. In my experience I have seen skiers, boarders and snowbladers who should have been taken off the slopes due to recklessness so this shouldn't be about a type of snowuser!

I don't think the differences between boarding and skiing and kayaks and surfers are the same - doing both, yes there is a real issue with Kayakers ( sharp paddles being my main concern ) - but the main problem with surfing is that there are limited waves to go round and often the critical part of the wave is in one specific place ( over a small section of reef or sandbar ), hence compressing people into a denser area - this isn't quite the same on the slopes - acknowledged that blue and green trails can be a bit hairy at times ! Because Kayakers have large paddles they can also paddle into a wave sooner than a surfer therefore claiming priority on a wave ( there is a widely acknowledge code when it comes to priority on waves ! ) - this is often the cause of conflict particularly if the Kayaker is not giving the surfers there fair share....

Now, to segregate on speed ? In 3V earlier this year they had introduced 'Zen' areas, quieter areas for beginners - not a problem, and worked really well for a novice boarder on my trip. The problem is when the beginner graduates out of these areas and needs a longer run to contend with - I don't think it is really practical to segregate large tracts of piste... but the novice boarder really found it distracting and a knock to confidence to go out onto the big wide piste amongst the better and faster boarders ( she was always looking over her shoulder ) - my opinion is thou that she just needed to 'get over it' ( am i too harsh ?? ) and learn to deal with it.

Anyhoo, I would personally be against any further extension of this kind of control - it all smacks of 'nanny state' and ultimately Skiing and boarding is a risky business. It would be better, as mentioned in other topics, to deal with the main problem which is dealing with inconsiderate and reckless behavious by removal of the offenders skipass !
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
I am coming round to the fact it probably has very little to do with the actual type of snowuser, and you can always find examples of reckless and inconsiderate behaviour, regardless of the number of planks the person is on! Personally, I seem to have been dive bombed by more boarders, but perhaps that is just because they sound quite loud coming up behind you, so I just notice them more... and thinking about it, on my last trip, I don't remember feeling particularly worried about it at all ~ so perhaps it is also to do with experience? As I have got more experience, i feel less vulnerable, but that is actually quite subjective, about my own feelings and not the behaviour of those around.

And what about the general wideness of pistes, giving everyone more space? I was in Tignes last and it felt wide and open, whereas previously in La Tania and Sauze it has felt more enclosed with narrower pistes. That goes towards the ideas about the actual infrastructure, and that the cracks will start to show more in places which have a large proportion of narrow pistes as more and more users try to use them.

If the infrastructure is breaking down due to more and more users, and a larger proportion of less experienced users attempting to join the 'main herd' with less instruction, then something will have to give, and it shouldn't be safety. But how much is this a real risk, and how much just a perceived one? What are the actual statistics on this?

Are most incidents causing injury
(1) between two piste users and could be attributed to one person's recklessness,
(2) or are most incidents effectively between user and piste.

The recent sad case of the skier in Banff appears to have no other piste user involved at all.

Does anyone know whether there are any stats on this ~ presumably there should be, or could be, if info was taken following accidents needing the help of piste patrols, etc. because they seem to always fill out reports and ask the user to sign them. Each type may need to be tackled in a different way.
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