 Poster: A snowHead
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I've got a pair of Head Vector 100 Mya Anthracite colour. As I walk places in them it's almost as though I can feel through my instep that the sole flexes under my foot. I notice no difference to any other pair of boots when I'm clipped into a set of skis, but there always seems to be this 'flex' when I walk. Does anyone else notice this with similar boots, is it my imagination or could there be a fault with my boots?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 12-12-13 0:21; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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My boots give a bit but that's because they are Atomic Hawx and are intended to. I don't know your boots but are they a similar design perhaps? Otherwise is something moving inside the boot when you walk, the baseboard or the footbed, or is there something under there which shouldn't be and it's that which you are feeling moving?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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sarah, interesting, it feels like the plastic that the sole is made of is flexing, but I guess it could be something else. They have superfeet green in them, but I don't think it is those that are flexing though I guess it might be.
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sarah, you know what? I've just taken a look at the boots and I think it is the sole itself - I can flex it with my fingers with the boot off. It's as steady as a rock when the boot is locked into the bindings, so perhaps they are like yours.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, how bizarre.
I would have said that this was very unlikely, but I looked at the Head site describing boot construction and there isn't very much that is stiff plastic built into the sole. Just enough I guess to retain shape under compression when in bindings.
I'm not at all sure I'd be happy putting them through too many "expert" stylee moves (it's described as an "expert" level boot on the Head site.
Are you "expert" enough to handle them? 
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Avalanche Poodle, not sure about "often" flex. I don't believe any of my boots have had much sole flexibility since my last leather ones in circa 1975.
I'm pretty sure there not much flex in my current ones.
I also struggle to understand the engineering of flexi plates in bindings that are expecting a certain tension.
Spoof methinks and marketing dangly bits from Atomic.
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under a new name, When I say flex, I am talking about stiff race boots that are subjected to large forces. Having swappable internal sole plates that stiffen the entire lower part of the boot up have been reviewed by quite a few independent people, plenty to research on the net, and a lot have said that they can feel a difference. Mostly it is damping on rutted icy terrain, with the hard plates in the boot seems to transmit every little nuance but allow massive angles to be put down immediately. The soft ones do seem to soften the boot a touch, it may be more to do with lateral stiffness. We are probably talking less than a couple of mil of movement in a boot sole when someone is at a high angle, high speed turn putting massive weight through the boot. When walking, or even weighting a boot I agree, there will be hardly any movement at all.
It is a marketing gimmick, but one that plenty of people say adds a minor bit of adjustment to the boots. Talk to some racers who use them, I'm sure you will find some who will swap them depending on their style and the discipline.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 11-12-13 23:31; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, The flex I was talking about is more the transmission of forces through the boot. We are generally talking racing here, people doing speeds and turns that we could only dream of. I cannot imagine that people like Bode Miller or Franz Klammer are not putting so much force through their feet that there is some distortion of the entire boot which also affects the sole.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The clamping on a ski boot is at the rear and front of the boot, the boot is unsupported under the middle part of the sole. I bet if you placed it in a rig and put 20 stone of weight through the base of the boot there will be a very small movement. The plastic the ski boots are made out of is flexible, even with the thickness of the sole if you look at them from the inside after taking out all the internals there is not a huge amount of plastic there. I bet if you made a ski boot with a half inch steel plate in the sole it would rattle your fillings out on an icy piste 
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 11-12-13 23:40; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Avalanche Poodle, i am neither boot nor binding engineer ( actually, by training, a mere physicist) but I do not see how an internal flat plate at the extreme of the boot can affect performance/feel to a great extent.
Lateral forces will be modified by clog/cuff performance. Sole rigidity will more or less be dictated by the need to offer a solid structure for the binding to act against.
I.e. If you consider the sole body in question, it ought to be definable by the octet ( i thought 8, maybe sextet?) of points at toe and heel, whose behaviour I think will be determined (in race skis) by the skis and bindings more than by the boots?
So it's really clog rigidity that may be interesting, as I'd have thought that overwhelm sole rigidity, in terms of feel?
I realise there are reviews suggesting a genuine difference, but I recall skiing the adjustable ESS which also felt a bit different but which didn't really make much of a difference for most folks. Entertainingly, Atomic bought ESS which may explain some things...
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under a new name, I think that unless we were racing at a high level we would never feel much performance difference. All I can say is that there is a difference felt between the hard and the soft plates, mainly comfort at my level, the ride is less harsh on difficult icy terrain. It may well be due to the plate acting as an insulator from the sole base as it crates some hollow gaps between the two underneath the footbed, this would create a little more shock absorption.
It definitely isn't any great extent, I did say that it was only a touch. A bit like changing cuff alignment etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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I know that you can bend the soft plate by 45 degrees with only finger pressure, while the hard feels like a steel bar lol. I think you are correct though, it'll be the bootboard rather than the lower sole in this case.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 12-12-13 0:27; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Avalanche Poodle, perhaps it's that flex movement that I'm feeling. It almost feels like the centre of the boot sole bows upwards into the instep my foot as I move around in them (I have a high instep, so it must be significant for me to be aware of it). My old boots didn't have that sensation. These boots don't have a dedicated walk-mode, but somehow do seem easier to walk in than the old ones did which may or may not be down to the flex that I feel (which incidentally does happen with both feet). I'm just interested to find out whether it could be that they have been designed to do this (and possibly why), or if the boots are faulty - its a hike back to the shop, and I don't want to look an idiot if its a design feature )which it might be since both of them do it) 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, Did you put your old footbed into the new boots? Probably just more cushioning under your feet. Walking would not be flexing a sole unit like that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Avalanche Poodle, I don't have any fancy footbeds, I took the Superfeet green out of the old pair and put them in the new ones, but they were still in good order when I took them out. I don't think it's them that are causing the problem, but it shouldn't be difficult to take them out and try. Perhaps one of the kids will watch the boot base as I flex my foot in them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I bet it's just as you put the weight down through your toes the footbeds are moving/flexing within the boot. Even my light touring boots won't move with walking.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Avalanche Poodle, I think you could be right. I've just put them on and had a really good go to see what causes the sensation. The footbed seems to exhibit full contact with the instep as the foot presses against the liner and I think this might be what I am feeling. I think because the liner is all one piece as I flex against the front and effectively push/tighten on that part of it that part of the liner pulls on and tightens the whole liner up, esp. the bit that goes under the footbed so closing the footbed up tighter on the instep. It didn't happen with the old boots, perhaps because the liner was soft, floppy and thick, but this one is thinner all over, tighter around the foot as a whole and stiffer overall. It stands to reason that if you foot deforms one part of it with pressure that will pull on all associated parts of it, and perhaps that is what is happening. My foot isn't moving in this pair so maybe I'm feeling the effect of the liner more.
You are right I couldn't flex the sole even with all my weight over it, so it can't be a shell problem. Well 'problem' is not the right word - it isn't even uncomfortable, it's just a feeling I'm not yet used to.
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Sounds right; and also sounds a much better boot / liner that will give you more precision and feedback from your movements  Enjoy them.
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Avalanche Poodle, I am reassured - thanks for your time tonight
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No worries, I'm spending time on here just waiting to hit the snow 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, there is a small amount of shape in the base board of the vectors (the plastic part screwed into the shell under the liner) (and some but not all other boots) if this shape is not flattened out by the boot fitter then it can cause the footbed to rock a little front to back (affects some footbeds not others, really depends on the shape of the underside) a boot fitter can flatten out that shape and interface the footbed to the baseboard correctly and the problem will go away, this is something that should be checked with every boot fit, a good fitter will know the ones he/she can leave and the ones that they need to adjust... biggest criminal for this is probably the head raptor race boots which have a lot of shape in the base board
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Thanks CEM, it sounds like it will be worth a trip back to shop to get them to fix it for me. It isn't so noticeable when I'm actually skiing, but if the footbed is rocking when I'm not skiing then clearly it might not be making proper contact with the base of the boot and transferring the pressures as effectively as it might so it sounds worth fixing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I bet if you placed it in a rig and put 20 stone of weight through the base of the boot there will be a very small movement.
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MM said she wasn't a pixie but that's a bit rich.... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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CEM, You're a pretty knowledgeable chap concerning boots, so i thought I'd throw in a random question that had got me thinking  I know that the base boards/foot boards have some flex in them, but would you say that the actual moulded shell soles have a minute amount of flex (associated with the entire shell) that acts to dampen vibration felt by the skier? I've seen a bit of stuff put out by manufacturers about increasing lateral stiffness etc but keeping weight down, and looking inside the shells it seems to be a compromise between how much material is used and where voids are left.
I'm wondering if the resurrection of the old insertable foot board into boots idea acts only between the foot and sole interaction as a dampening system, or will a full length stiff board also reduce flexibility of the boot slightly?
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pam w,
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You know it makes sense.
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pam w, I'd deliberately ignored that part of the comment
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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CEM, Thanks for that. It sounds pretty interesting, but those guys and gals are really pushing the performance of their equipment. I used the softest plate in mine for off piste and general skiing, but when I tested the Kneissl White Star skis I put the medium in and it did seem to give more feedback through the feet but made the ride feel a bit edgier. A little difficult to tell with switching skis all day but I have some SL skis of my own now so will test swapping back to the hard plates with those. I have the feeling though that I'll stick with the soft ones for most skiing, I'm no racer.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, not the first time...
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If so it's happened in quite a few sponsored sports before.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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couldn't possibly comment
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So all those bad-ass racers pretending to be on 150 flex feet crushing boots are actually wearing slipper like 1983 rear entry Nordicas with lots of 'atomic' stickers on them... shame on them
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I know one thing, when I swap to my Dynafits which have a flex of 90 I really suffer on variable steep ground through not being able to pressure the skis to do what I want. I've had to develop a much more gentle and fluid style, which is probably making me better technically rather than just trying to force my way through the crud and bumps. Not having a stiff boot to push against does feel very weird, and the borrowed touring binding I was on was a bit wobbly too. Lets see how the Trackers perform this year.
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