Camping in snow

A snowHead

I am thinking of trying camping out in snow, with a tent. The tent I have is a dome tent and I have used it before in temperatures of -5C and it was cold but not unbearable.

Is anyone expert in the field of staying warm in a tent in the snow, and do you have any tips.

I would probably use two sleeping bags, one 4 season and one 3 season. I would also have a gas cooker to heat water for a hot water bottle. Maybe also a neoprene face mask and a hat.

There must be some extreme campers out here with other tips.

snowHead

A snowHead

I've camped in -10c. Defiantly not recommended if skiing as it's difficult to get dry, cooking in the tent also causes problems, it snows inside! You need a waterproof cover for the sleeping bag or it will get damp, but it will get damp anyway from inside. In the Arctic they will often use a bulky synthetic bag as they stay warm when damp, it's only a problem if used for days on end. A minor issue camping in snow is you end up sleeping in a dip formed by your body, which is ok until you want to roll over. Pegging can be an issue, I met some lads who had bought some masonry nails to hammer into the frozen ground. In soft snow the ice axes, boulders, whatever. If it's windy build a snow wall to stop a drift forming over the tent.

Good luck.

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In deep snow you can fill a plastic bag (cloth better, and take them home) with snow and bury it instead of using a tent peg. I have an Agungalak bag rated down to -20C, I've used it in -8 when water and gas bottles had to be kept inside the sleeping bag to prevent freezing, and even at those temps I couldn't do the neck baffle up nor draw the hood tightly, I was overheating with just a thin thermal top on. Use a decent kip mat, or double up with a foam one, the surface will conduct a bit of heat away. Leave a little vent open, or the condensation ice on the roof keeps falling off in the morning when getting dressed. When cooking really make sure you have the place vented, and watch out for fire risk.

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Bigtipper, if you can find a mountain designed dome tent with skirts, it's a pretty good investment for winter camping.

http://www.decathlon.fr/alpinism-t3-id_8132994.html

I got an end of line orange version of the model above from their Fort Glasgow shop for £150 3 years back and it's turned out to be bomber. I load the snow skirts with stones to seal the fly sheet so that even in a gale, I hardly feel a breath of moving air inside. The biggest downer for me is packing a tent down in a combination of strong wind and sub-zero temperatures because my fingers get numbed by the cold. It's a really, very unpleasant experience trying to unpick and pack away the frozen aluminium poles off the tent when you're trying to hurry and no longer have the warmth of its shelter.

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Decent sleeping mat under you - down bag gets compressed so not much insulation underneath, so a Thermarest is worth it's weight in gold - much better than foam mats: only need a 3/4 length one of weight's an issue when pack-carrying.

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I remember putting the tent up in Glacier National Park in Canada, and the tent poles snapped. Does anyone know if aluminium tent poles become more brittle in cold weather which makes them succeptible to snapping? I have spares now, but I did not have then.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I may well take a waterproof bivvy bag which would keep the sleeping bag dry inside the tent. It may also act as another layer to keep warm with. It is very lightweight, and does not take up much room.

After all it is free

I noticed you mentioned having a gas cooker - don't be tempted to use it as a heater in the tent and when you are using it to cook ensure you have good ventilation. The dangers of carbon monoxide poisoning exit if use in a non or poorly ventilated space.

Mad dogs and Englishmen camp in the freezing cold ....

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Bigtipper, Go for something like 7001 T6 Aluminium Alloy poles, my old Quasar Ultra is still going strong after 25 years, never had a thing replaced and it's been on Scottish mountain peak tops in gales.

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Build a really good snow wall around your tent - It provides shelter from winds or incoming precip. You will also get a better sleep by getting rid uneven/weaker snow and getting to a firm base(Don't dig too deep if you have a shallow snowpack) Dig a well/step in the vestibule so no snow ends up in the tent. Leave anything that is wet/snowy outside in the vestibule.

If you're in a storm keep removing the snow off the tent. This could mean removing snow every 4 hrs. If it looks like you're in a big storm for a couple days consider digging a snow cave. Its a bit of work but it'll be far warmer then a tent that is getting hammered/buried by wind and snow. Consider using a BD Mega mid, if you're not expecting a storm, nice and light and get loads of ventilation.

You can also use stuff sacks full of snow and burry them to anchor the edges of your tent as well as polls ice axes as long as you have enough snow.

Mild temps and precip = synthetic bag
Cold temps = down bag

Try not overheat, regulate your temp otherwise your bag will start to gather moisture over time. I'd prefer to sleep in -12 to 16 as it's dry instead of temps near zero as there's way more humidity . Good way to keep warm at night is by putting a warm water bottle in your sleeping bag, wear a hat to bed and bring an extra pair of socks and thermals to change into at night.To dry any gear just put it between the sleeping bag and thermarest.Whenever you get a chance of drying out your gear in the sun, do it. Simply hang it between poles or skis during a lunch break and it'll dry it out quite quickly.

Avoid using your stove in the tent, Co2 not so good makes you sleepy....zzzzz and then javascript:emoticon(' Skullie

') Also needless humidity builds up from melting snow and boiling which leads to excess moisture.

Use your boot liners as a pillow, and pre warm your liners in your sleeping bag before putting into cold ski boot shells.

Winter camping once you get the basics down is a blast, and can give you the ability to enjoy some cool spots for longer then just a day via base camps or traverses. Winter camping courses are well worth while, you never know when you might use it.

Never underestimate avalanche runout, always go for the safe option, and think of the recent avalanche on Manasula in 2012.

Skullie

snow reports

If there are a few of you sharing a small tent and space is limited, bring a bivi bag and put stuff like rucksacks in it, just make sure it can't blow away, burying it in the snow helps but don't forget which end of the tent it is at Toofy Grin

Boot liners as pillows, now that's GNARLY

You know it makes sense.

A few thoughts, having camped in -25/-30 overnight temps in 'A to the K' and Greenland:

Though the following assume no weight/volume restrictions - adjust accordingly...

Good sleeping mat is key - a big, thick full length thermarest and potentiallý a foam mat underneath
Insulated stove board and foil wraps or cosies for pans make cooking more efficient
Boot liners in and socks and base layers in the bag with you to dry out overnight (potentially along with water for the next morning (not to be mixed up with your pee bottle!) , camera batteries, etc)
Dig a shallow pit and big walls round the tent - inside this dig a 'cold sink' pit (ie a deeper pit) for cold air to drop in to
Adjust your days to make the most of the afternoon sun for kit drying, melting water etc
Gas cookers can lose efficiency as it gets colder - potentially think about a decent multifuel stove
Enjoy

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

offpisteskiing, Some really good tips there. I've never camped in temps quite that low.

Oh, any meds and contact lense cases also in your bag lol

A snowHead

These are my tips:

- A 4 season tent will be much warmer than a 3 season or lighter tent. It'll have less ventilation but that'll mean it stays warmer. It'll also have more guy points for if it gets windy.

- pack down the snow that you'll be pitching on. If you don't, you could find yourself creating a depression where you sleep which, if it melts and refreezes, will become very uncomfortable.

- Don't over-dress. Better to get a VERY good sleeping bag (or two) and a couple of layers of clothing. If you overdress, you can end up with your clothes being snug enough on your body that they not only reduce their insulating properties but also start to restrict blood flow, cooling you further. This is most evident with umpteen pairs of socks on.

-Sleep mats: I'd recommend taking two, a regular carrymat foam thingy on the bottom, and something like a thermarest on top. A suspended bed or some other way of sleeping that allows air to circulate freely underneath you isn't a good idea, as it'll chill you from both top and bottom. Better to insulate yourself.

- Condensation is going to be a bug, no matter what you do, but there are things you can do to minimise it. Make sure you brush off as much snow as you can from your clothes before getting into the tent, otherwise it'll melt and add to the humidity in the tent. Gas stoves might sound like a great idea but aside of the fire risk, don't forget that their 'exhaust' is mainly water vapour and CO2, adding to the condensation in the tent. By all means fill a hot water bottle, but I'd do it in the awning at least.

- Cooking : can be interesting, especially as the stove melts itself down into a hole in the snow. Stoves need to be stable, so it's a good idea to find something you can use which will spread the weight of the stove over the snow, but also help insulate it from the snow.

A snowHead

With gas cooking you may find a hose connection allows you to hold the canister over the cooking pot, the warming effect increases the pressure. As pointed out previously, gas does not perform well in very low temps.

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One word.

Hotel.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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loads of good advice from people with more experience than me.
I'll just add that the pschological benefit in being able to make a cup of tea without gettingout of your bag in the morning is huge Very Happy

Means taking the advice about getting a good platform for the stove set up in the bell/vestibule and not forgetting to keep your water bottles in your bag with you.

The other thing that occurs is getting into a good patter of snow melting if there is no running water available - e.g., always try to have a pan stacked on top of what you are cooking with some water in it which you can keep feeding snow into

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

How long were you planning to do this for, is this a base or mobile camp? The point about pitching where or near where the sun shines is incredibly important for drying things out. Oh, and don't forget to put some gaffer tape around your pee bottle so that you don't use the wrong one in the dark, learn it's maximum capacity and don't be a gentleman and let someone use it first if they don't have one. Whatever they say they won't just stick to using half!

After all it is free

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I'm not sure how much of my winter experience is relevant to you – it depends how mobile you want to be and what your location is like, but it may be of use to someone, so here you go.

I've done a couple of one-week trips camping in the snow in Norway. Temps down to about -20. This is how they do it, and the Norwegians know a thing or two about winter camping:

• Dig out the snow down to the ground and build it up around the sides (though when you're digging out 2m+, you start to run out of places to put it...)
• Insulate from the ground. They used a layer of sticks/logs and then straw, then sleeping mats etc go on top. A good, thick sleeping mat/thermarest should do the trick.
• Fire in the tent, for warmth. These tents were massive, but I think you can get smaller lavvu type tents that you can make a fire inside and the smoke goes up the chimney. Probably not feasible for one person, but would be for a group. Don't try this with a plastic dome tent! Skullie

• Don't overheat at night. If you sweat, you will then be cold and damp.
• Somewhere like Scandinavia, where the air is dry, airing out sleeping bags and drying clothes is no problem as long as it isn't snowing. Just tie a bit of cord between two trees and chuck them over.
• Sun pits are nice if you are not active during the day. Find a spot that gets lots of sun, dig it out and pile the snow around 3 sides so the open side faces south. Insulate from the ground, add a tarpaulin and blanket on top, and sit back with a coffee Cool

Be careful of trying to cook inside your tent with a gas stove. They need ventilation, without this you just have a fast method of CO poisoning, and you may not even be aware of it. Skullie

snow reports

There is no plan as yet. I am just looking to experiment first before taking the next step. It probably will not be anywhere exotic initially.

The balance between bulk weight and warmth dryness needs to be optimised first. Take too much stuff, and it becomes a pain to carry. Too little and you freeze.

NehNeh

You know it makes sense.

it might be a good idea to start with using a campsite first, before heading out into the wilderness. This will give you a chance to sort out your routine whilst still having a quick exit should you miss calculate.

Some tips,
Have a nice big shovel and keep it inside the tent at night.
Insulate your bed from the ground.
If your tent has a well separated inner and outer you shouldn't need an extra bivi bag.
Keep your water inside with you, I use a large insulated container made by camping gaz, has polystyrene between the inner and outer.
A hand brush helps keep the snow out.
The nights are long in winter so a bit more room in your tent is useful also think about lights, books, playing cards or games. Someone to talk to as well.
If your cooking in the tent a large vestibule area helps keep the condensation away from your sleeping area and is safer as is having more than one door.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

The Quasar series of tents have a nice double porch and entrance (one at each end), and you can partially retract the inner away from one during the day to give a much larger cooking area. Having access at each end means that the ventilation possibilities are superb. The Ultra is lighter but they also do a winter version with a valanced outer for pitching on snow.

A snowHead

A snowHead

I hope it goes well, this is a brave and fascinating project.

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Bigtipper, mat is important, som of the best: http://www.exped.com/denmark/en/product-category/mats/downmat-xp-9-lw
But use winter from as well, depending on where and how high you go.

Condense will be a problem Sad

- one down extreme sleepingbag with mousture protection.

Anyway you will not sleep deep for long time. Toofy Grin

Tent: Helsport http://www.helsport.no/ has good winter tents - but costy!

Done it for winter-walking - but not for for downhill skiing!

PS: Gas does not work at low temperatures. Use multifull burner with petrol.

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Someone's already mentioned it once but but do make sure you get up and clear the tent of snow regularly if it's snowing heavily (or is forecast to) overnight.

An "experienced" couple suffocated in their tent earlier this year just above Les Houches on their way up Mont Blanc when it dumped overnight.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I’ve camped a fair bit in snow (in the Alps, and for 500 mile traverse of the Californian Sierra Nevada), and do things somewhat differently to some of the above. It’s my approach, which means it works for me/my skills/my equipment rather than making it right for anyone else.

1) Sleeping bag. I use the lightest bag I can get away with. For the Sierra Nevada this was an ultralight Rab bag with 200g of down and a temp rating of 0C. Within this, when necessary, I wore nearly all my clothes (including a down vest). Even below -10C I was never cold. Importantly, I was never too warm and therefore sweat was minimised; most of the damp in your tent comes from sweat (unless you cook!). Below -15C I'd go for a vapour barrier liner. A 4 season + 3 season bag would be massive overkill for me.
2) Mat. I use approx. 2.5cm of foam mats (gossamer gear nightlight, like an ultralight version of a Z-rest). Inflatable mats get internal condensation problems after a while, and if they puncture, you’re in trouble. They are also heavy.
3) Location. I try to avoid actually camping on snow (tho sometimes its unavoidable). There’s usually some exposed ground somewhere – even if it means a windblown ridgeline. If there’s so much snow that there is no exposed ground, a snowhole might be a practical option and they are MUCH warmer. I’ve had -30C outside, -5C inside.
4) Tent. Extended flysheets/valances are great for freezing your tent to the snow (which matters in storms etc.) but the rest of the time they restrict ventilation and add to the damp problem. I use a Warmlite 2R which is an obscure tent ideal for winter camping (it is effectively an insulated tent) and incredibly light.
5) Cooking. Gas, gas, gas. When you are cold/tired, the 10 mins it takes to get a multifuel stove going in the cold is 10 mins you don’t have. In addition, I find multifuel stoves need serviced at the most inopportune moments. If you get propane and a remote canister stove there’s no issue with the gas being too cold.
6) Cover your mouth. Makes a massive difference - I use a buff. It reduces moisture loss through breathing (the more water you can keep in your lungs and off the tent, the better) and keeps your face warm.

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Not a lot to add but:

1) One decent bag is better than two imo. Synthetic overbags are comin back in fashion but if you do go down this route, make sure they are sized correctly. A three and four season bag combined sounds a very bad idea. Down to -5 and moving everyday, I've a PHD 300g down bag. In grenland when we set up camp and skied from the peaks back to camp each day I had a nice ME 1000g down bag. Pick a fit for purpose bag.
2) If you are carrying you stuff everyday, just take a Z-Rest for a mat. If you're setting yp a base camp take the Z rest and an inflatable (exped do some natty inflatable winter mats). Inflatable mats are great till they puncture/deflate, fill with condensation, there's no redundancy if they go wrong!
3) Though ventilation cools the tent, it also reduces condensation which is the real killer. Damp stuff makes for unhappy campers.
4) Test all your kit/methods out in a safe enviroment, not three days from help!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I am unlikely to buy any new kit, and so I will either improvise with what I have or do without. Luckily I have a full size thermarest, a tent and spare poles, sleeping bags, waterproof bivvy bag, and gas cookers (many types). I have had the thermarest for 14 years now, and spent 9 months using it on a regular basis. (it has sat in the attic recently for a long period) Expensive item, but it has outlasted many cheap inflatable beds over that 14 year period (which all seem to have a shelf life of about 2 months sleeps before they puncture)

This damp issue seems to be a common theme. I had considered when packing, using a vacuum sealed plastic container, not just to reduce bulk but also to ensure that the items inside remained dry. This is something I may buy, as they are very cheap. (the vacuum bags)

I have a neoprene face mask, which helps keep my nose warm when sleeping. I once slept with a dentist face mask over my nose and mouth, and found that this helped keep the air warm around my nose, and aided breathing in cold air. I suspect it also keeps condensation out of the air. I may try both.

Thanks for the suggestions, I will probably try many of them to see what works best.

Smile

After all it is free

If amongst your many stoves you have a remote canister stove (i.e. the canister and the burner are connected by a flexible pipe rather than burner sits on top of canister) then you can use blowtorch cylinders. This has the huge advantage that you can get pure propane rather than butane/propane mixes. This negates any need to keep the canister warm. Melting snow takes the same energy as boiling water (i.e. to melt snow to make 1L of water is equivalent to taking 1L of water to boiling), so if snow is your water source, you will need MUCH more stove fuel than normal.

I have done lots of cold weather/snow field camping and only one thing to add to the above.... bring a pee bottle! I use a [cough cough] wide mouthed screw top Nalgene bottle with a wrap of duct tape around it so that I NEVER confuse it for a water bottle.

Usually, you are in your sleeping bag much earlier than you would be in bed at home, so you have that much longer for your bladder to fill.

Another tip is to have some nuts or similar lightweight/high calorie food and eat a handful at bedtime [ideally not salted].

greg

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