 Poster: A snowHead
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….sounds good doesn’t it?
Trouble is, it doesn’t snow a great deal in England, so for the majority of the time, there would be insufficient snow to ski on. This would not make economic sense.
It would be possible to use snow cannons to produce snow like they do in the southern Swedish resort of Vallasens http://www.vallasen.se/index.php3?use=publisher&id=1176&lang=2 but the problem would be that it is not consistently cold enough in any part of England to produce enough snow using snow cannons, and when it is cold enough, the humidity is often high to produce decent snow.
Then along came the IDE snowmaker. http://www.ide-snowmaker.com This was a game changer with regard to the feasibility of creating a ski resort in England, or any other location where freezing cold temperatures are not the norm.
The machine can make snow at ambient temperatures using a vacuum to increase the temperature at which ice is formed.
Ambient temperature snow machines have been around for a while, and some have been put to commercial use. Diggerland in Kent had a snow machine that pumped out snow everyday, and more successfully in Japan, they open a few resorts early using Snow Magic machines http://www.snowmagic.com/resorts.php. The trouble is, these machines use huge amounts of electricity.
The beauty of the IDE machine is, it produces snow using less energy even than a conventional snow gun as it uses unchilled water as the refrigerant.
So, that solves the problem of the lack of snow and very warm temperatures. The main sticking block is that it would cost a lot of money to purchase one of these machines, plus many millions of pounds on chairlifts and infrastructure to build the resort.
In order to make is economically viable, you need visitors, lots of visitors, I found a useful table for calculating the number of visitors you could expect, based on the population located within one hours on this site. http://www.snowflex.com/ from this, I concluded that an 1000m high mountain in Essex, would be ideal, however following a quick check on a map, none was to be found.
The closest decent (500m+) hill I could find was Tittlestone Clee Hill in Shropsire, this had the added benefit of having an A road running up the side of it, and a disused mine on the top which was a complete eyesore. During the heavy snowfall in 2010, the midlands got quite a beating with snow, and I suspect that conditions on the hill would have been fantastic, it is also one of the coldest areas of the country, so any snow would probably hand around for a while. Being downwind of the Brecon Beacons and the other mountains of Wales would shelter it from the worst of the wet Atlantic depressions. The main problem with this location, is that the difference in height between the centers of population where the visitors would come from (Birmingham) and the hill itself are only 200-300m, so in all likelihood, when the conditions on the hill were awesome, the roads would be gridlocked, and no visitors would be able to get to the resort.
The next site on the list was the Berwyn range between Shrewsbury and Snowdonia (Snowdonia was ruled out as being too rugged and much too costal to hold snow for a decent period of time, over a large area) The Berwyn range option would have a top lift at 780m (higher than any existing English slope) with a maximum vertical drop of 350m. The access roads to the resort would have been a full 400m below the top lift, so skiing on fresh natural snow would have been possible, without having to battle through poop conditions to get there. However after watching snowfall between January and March 2011 (typical-slightly mild winter weather) only a couple of days have shown snow at Berwyn.
It is unlikely that people would be willing to travel a great distance to ski on a single strip of snow for 80% of the winter.
The next site considered was the hill next to Cautley spout in the Howgill fells. The north easterly facing slope of Great Dummacks offered nearly 500m of vertical descent with the bottom of the lift located 250m from an A road and just 10 miles from the M6 motorway.
On a good day, this site would have offered riding to match the best to be found in Scotland, but these days would have been few and far between due to the 663m low altitude and close proximity to the coast.
The Lake District has a ski slope located at Raise, this offers great snow sports on a good day, but a reliance on cold conditions arriving from the west to give the best snow holding means that these days are rare. The highest mountains in the Lake District are a long way from major roads, so a development targeting day and weekend visitors should not be located here.
The Cheviot is located away from warm westerly’s, and is close enough to the east coast to pick up snow showers from weak easterlies and would get the best from heavy snow from the east and north east. An A road is approximately 5 miles away and this is at 100m, so would not get easily blocked. Its location half way between Edinburgh and Newcastle would be good to attract visitors from these cities, but, to access it from anywhere else would be a very long drive.
I had a quick look at a slope on the south side of kinder scout accessed from Edale train station (direct from Manchester), but skiing would have been too limited to justify the investment.
The vast majority of the ski slopes in England are located in the North Pennines for good reason. Shelter from warm westerly’s from the Lake district mean that heavy rain in winter is reduced, any snowstorms from the east keep the majority of their snow until they meet the Pennines and their high altitude mean that they hold snow better than any area in England. http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/averages/ukmapavge.html
The main slopes in the Pennines are adjacent to the roads that cross the area, these roads are both the reason that it is possible to ski in the Pennines and the reason it is often not possible to ski in the Pennines due to them being blocked by the snow. Because of the nature of the weather at these slopes located between 500 and 700m, skiing is generally on or off. Passing weather systems alternately provide good conditions, followed by a complete thaw. When the slopes are open, the roads always get just as good a covering.
For this reason, if any investment is to be made, it would need to be guaranteed that in 99% of weather, it should be possible to reach the bottom lift car park. The amount of lost skiing revenue in Scotland due to poor access must be phenomenal. Having a differential in height of 500m between the bottom lifts an the access road should ensure this (see the difference in closures due to blocked roads between western and eastern ski resorts in Scotland).
North east facing slopes hold a given snow depth for longest as they are sheltered from the midday sun and the evening sun when air temperatures are highest. In the UK, snow VERY rarely comes from a south westerly direction so snow is unlikely to accumulate in large drifts on these slopes; however, they are the best slopes to lay down manmade snow that you want to hang around.
Heavy snowfall in the Pennines generally comes from the east or the north http://forum.netweather.tv/topic/20474-winter-snow-setups/ so ski lifts and slopes should be provided on leeward slopes to take advantage of these conditions(see positioning of Yad Moss and Harwood common ski tows).
Drag lifts also result in minimized ski days, as they require better conditions than a chairlift, as the skier can pick their way down a slope that is marginal. Draglifts should be available for use on windy days when chairlifts cannot run.
As a rule of thumb, an increase in altitude of 100m gives an additional 5 days of snowfall per year.
So if we could add a few hundred metres of altitude to the existing resorts in the pennines, we could expect an additional 10 days of skiing on fresh snow.
So rather conveniently we have ended up with some criteria for a feasible ski resort in England.
Location: Pennines
Ski run altitude: 600-900m
Access road altitude: 100m
Mountain: Cross Fell
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 23-03-11 17:20; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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meanwhile back on planet earth............. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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....alright Dave....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It just won't work. We have no alpine water in the UK.
from http://www.ide-snowmaker.com
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| VIM can use any typical source of Alpine water for snowmaking |
Uk water is the wrong type of water, game over.
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parlor, The have snow in the US? I thought that only happened in the Alps...
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Um, did you happen to notice the multiple occurrences of "shake hole" on the OS maps you posted???
Maybe it's just me, but dropping into a naturally occurring hole which may or may not be shallow doesn't fill me with joy, especially when they can occur spontaneously, and even more especially when there are old mine workings in the area, and it's all limestone and may have cave systems underneath as well.
Maybe some more research needed?
For starters, Wikipedia notes that "The fell is prone to dense hill fog and fierce winds"  Yes, it can be skied. No, it isn't the next St. Anton.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ousekjarr wrote: |
| For starters, Wikipedia notes that "The fell is prone to dense hill fog and fierce winds" Yes, it can be skied. No, it isn't the next St. Anton. |
Scotland experiences these conditions a lot of the time, but people still ski there. Any high altitude area in the UK will experience high winds, and the fog is caused by warm moist air moving across cold ground, this is inevitable in the UK.
Regarding the shake holes, pisted runs would be routed to avoid these, and if people are going off piste, they would need to be vigilant, main holes could be marked with black and yellow poles like in any other ski resorts. The type of shake holes that you are being scared by are the giant ones that eat whole towns. Most of the Pennine shake holes have been there for thousands of years. The other three Pennine ski areas are located near areas of shake holes, and they have got round the problem.
You are right is saying that it would not be the next St Anton, but it doesn’t need to be. Most people cannot afford to pop to a ski resort for the day or the weekend. Even Scotland is too far for most English people to travel to for a days skiing. What is desperately needed is some well planned infrastructure to allow several hundred people to get up on a ski hill when it does snow.
People travel up from London to ski in the Pennines at the existing resorts, and that is with a risk of not being able to get there, not being able to ski due to overcrowding, getting snowed in….. so if those risks were reduced, and an hour shaved off the travelling time, people would visit in droves.
Modern technology can broadcast condition reports across the internet, and email alerts can be sent out a couple of day in advance of a big anticipated dump.
BELIEVE!
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I like your thinking. Your pitch was good, if a little long. There's clearly a market, and with the right idea this one could work. But you've not nailed your numbers. This is my children's inheritance you are asking for. The financials look like a disaster, and for that reason I'm out.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I love the idea, I'm in for 10% or £100, whichever is the cheaper.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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another 199,000 pledges of £100 and we should be there.
certainly a lot cheaper than Snoasis which will cost £350M and will only have a 415m long slope with a 100m drop.
http://www.snoasis.co.uk/snoasis/?q=skiing
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
another 199,000 pledges of £100 and we should be there.
certainly a lot cheaper than Snoasis which will cost £350M and will only have a 415m long slope with a 100m drop.
http://www.snoasis.co.uk/snoasis/?q=skiing |
Yes, but that might actually happen.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I can't see it ever happening. Who has the money to buy up that sort of land for something that will only get a few weeks' use each year? I suppose it would need to be like Another World in Ogden and have another year round use for when it's not cold enough for snow. However, I'd certainly use it if it happened. Going to Scotland for a day trip is not feasible, and this sounds a bit more interesting than the Snowdome.
It's nice to dream.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| Who has the money to buy up that sort of land for something that will only get a few weeks' use each year? |
Unproductive fell? Not very expensive, maybe £1000-2000 per acre? Actually... I take that back. That is big grouse country Don't they value land up there at the rate of £500-£1000 per grouse? So my plan (b) which was to lease the land may well not work if the landowners consider it would compete with the grouse
| Quote: |
| However, I'd certainly use it if it happened. Going to Scotland for a day trip is not feasible, and this sounds a bit more interesting than the Snowdome. |
There are three (? - Yad Moss, Weardale, Harwood) ski resorts within not very many miles of there anyway. Admittedly they suffer from access problems, but you can ski there if you wish. Annual membership less than an hour in a fridge ish.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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the land could be cheap as chips £1,125 an acre for lower lying ground (more useful for conventional farming) http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-18312882.html
The land would be the cheap bit.
second hand ski tows can be found cheaply, and have been purchased for use in the pastin the pennines, however, i think if it is do be done, it needs to be done properly, and that means new wind resistant lifts, new pistebasher (polar 600 would do nicely) and the snow maker £3M-ish
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Might be viable for those living within an hour's drive of the 'resort'. But otherwise you may as well get a cheap flight to the Alps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think its all dangly bits and for that reason I'm out...................
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A sustainably profitable ski resort in England will need to be within 60 minutes of central London.
The rest of the UK is too poor to support it longterm.
IDE snowmakers remain relatively scarce in all ski resorts worldwide. Why is that? If it's mostly cost, can you quantify?
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The cost of the building and snowmaker itself in Zermatt was 2M CHF which is £1.4M.
From memory Using the snowmaker at Zermatt meant that the summer acreage available for glacier skiing was doubled. therefore the capacity of the resort was doubled for 3-4 months a year.
There are probably not many resorts where producing such a small amount of additional piste can make such a difference.
I would question how many people in central london have thier own ski equipment.
The vast majority of snowdomes have been built in the north/midlands, not one has been built in the South of England, and they still make money despite charging £25/hour.
I would suggest that the proposed development would have to charge a premium over the scottish resorts (Cairngorm £31/day) with a day pass at something around £50/day.
This might seem a lot compared to even alpine resorts, but the convenience and novelty factor should negate that.
significant discounts would be offered if multiple days passes were purchased, and probably a charge of £35 if just the two man made slopes were open.
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| Quote: |
and they still make money despite charging £25/hour.
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doubtful if the offers flooding out of ChFe are anything to go by. Recession is starting to bite 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Apparently 75% of the population of England live within 2 hours of Milton Keynes, therefore that would be the best location. Looking at your plans, the location you suggest would be too far away from me for a day trip, and I'm pretty much as central as is possible in England. So idea good, financials sketchy, location poor.
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Idea absurd, financials preposterous, location irrelevant.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Nort sure why the idea itself is absurd, and as no financials posted how are they preposterous? Location critical. Maybe Cairngorm? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I favour the South London Alps myself - Streatham had a fine season
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I did look at Hindhead, but the land price would have been excessive, and it rains a lot in the winter, and only snows about 10 days a year
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You know it makes sense.
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mr_big_ad, you are Phil Keith and I claim my £10  . seriously, good luck to you - it's good to have vision
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Nadenoodlee wrote: |
| I favour the South London Alps myself - Streatham had a fine season |
I'm pretty sure that is now St Reatham....
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Poster: A snowHead
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I just got back from a long weekend skiing. Total cost including lift pass, travel, ski hire, accommodation and food was about £450. That was for 4 days on the slopes. That's what you are competing with.
If I drive for 3 hours (which your proposed location is) it costs me £30-£40 in fuel. That is only going up at the moment. Then I have to drive back. Another £30-£40. I've got to find somewhere to stay, dinner B&B is going to cost me minimum £100 per night.
So for £360 I have got 3 nights and potentially 4 days skiing. Now the difference is that your resort is going to be tiny, I was skiing in a massive ski area with hundreds of miles of pistes and pretty much guaranteed snow from January to March, realistically late Dec to April.
You're on to a loser. You are competing with resorts across europe due to cheap travel and easy access to the slopes, vs a crap motorway network and expensive fuel prices in the UK and chuff all snow for 99% of the time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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They tried this in Merthyr Tydfil many years ago, just before we had a run of warm winters (the 90's I think). I used to drive past a horrible scar on the landscape, and believe me it takes something to further scar the landscape at Merthyr! Agree with Monium, a non-starter, and anyway, where would you get the chalet girls?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't believe that that is what the competition is.
I don’t believe that a particularly high proportion of people who ski in Scotland are there for a week or even a long weekend, i think that the majority are day trippers during the week or people staying one maybe two nights at weekends.
I learnt the hard way many years ago when booking a week in Mid January at the Spittal of Glenshee anticipating a week of skiing at Glenshee. what i got was half a days skiing at the Lecht.
Even at the largest resort in Scotland (Glenshee), all of the terrain would be covered in a day by an intermediate skier.
I think the target audience would not be people with enough money to fly to the Alps for a long weekend. It would be people who have 1 week long trip a year but fancy an extra day or two on the slopes. or someone who cannot afford a full weeks skiing.
I would say that the minimum realistic cost for a weeks skiing on the continent is £800 once you have factored EVERYTHING in. (not counting an eastern european £300 jobbie if still available)
If we take a group of 4 people in a car splitting your £80 4 ways.
Staying in budget onsite accommodation (think 4 people sharing a room) for Friday and Saturday night. £30pppn
food £40pppd
booze £10pppd
skipass £85pp
skihire £65
£270 for a weekends skiing with food and drink all in if travelling from the south on a Friday night after work
or £60 for a days skiing if traveling from the midlands or above, using own equipment and eating a packed lunch.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| welshskier wrote: |
| They tried this in Merthyr Tydfil many years ago, just before we had a run of warm winters (the 90's I think). |
Merthyr is 15 miles from the coast, 200 miles further south, the altitude is 400-500m lower, and they did not have a snowmachine that could make snow whatever the weather.
I think an opinion from someone who lives in the pennines who knows how different or not the conditions would be in the north facing bowl of crossfell, would be helpful.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry, but it still sounds like pie in the sky.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
The cost of the building and snowmaker itself in Zermatt was 2M CHF which is £1.4M.
From memory Using the snowmaker at Zermatt meant that the summer acreage available for glacier skiing was doubled. therefore the capacity of the resort was doubled for 3-4 months a year.
There are probably not many resorts where producing such a small amount of additional piste can make such a difference.
I would question how many people in central london have thier own ski equipment.
The vast majority of snowdomes have been built in the north/midlands, not one has been built in the South of England, and they still make money despite charging £25/hour.
I would suggest that the proposed development would have to charge a premium over the scottish resorts (Cairngorm £31/day) with a day pass at something around £50/day.
This might seem a lot compared to even alpine resorts, but the convenience and novelty factor should negate that.
significant discounts would be offered if multiple days passes were purchased, and probably a charge of £35 if just the two man made slopes were open. |
100% of the indoor snowdomes newly opened in the UK between 2008 and 2012 will have been in the bottom half of England.
The UK snowdomes are hybrid leisure-retail developments in populated urban areas, rather than ski resorts in semi-populated semi-rural areas, so the financial comparisons are a bit of a stretch.
A small resort with an expensive lift ticket near an impoverished region in a windy geographic location that lacks the majesty of central Scotland or the European Alps would struggle to excite as an investment.
Kudos for innovating, though, so keep the thoughts coming.
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My favourite bit of this is some bloke has used some felt-tip pens to draw a colour coded piste map on the OS map of cross fell, presumably trousered and then posted it on the internet. Not sure if it was after or before he sent the regrettable text to his ex.
Cross fell is a designated conservation area and I think evening grazing is restricted/prohibited on the fell tops. Even sheep are banned for Christ sake, to protect the very few occurrences of this landscape and flora in England. Don't hold your breath for the planning permission for the revolving restaurant at the top
Cross fell is the source of the Tyne (also the Tees I think) and as such plays an important emotional part in the geography of the North East. Lots of angry Geordies will cut up rough about all of this.
Still, I'm off to sink half a bottle of whisky and design myself the new Whitley bay Caribbean beach resort. The development of UV sun lounges is disruptive man.
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I'm sure you could get a usable lift system up. I'm sure you could get enough snow to keep a piste open for a month or two of the winter. But no way is it going to be snow of the quality anyone wants to ski, and no way is the terrain gonna be interesting. £50 to slide a few hundred metres down a low angle straight piste? Nope. Not a chance. Tbh, of the two days I've skied in Scotland, I felt a bit conned by the price of the lift pass for the quality of skiing (and that was with student concessions). To make money you need to offer good/fun skiing, not just the option to stand on skis on snow.
OTOH, I'll take some of whatever it is you're on, that looks like fun!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I suspect that the snowheads forum is not inhabited by the likes of people who would go to ruka in Finland or Pamporovo in Bulgaria, but thousands of people do every year. These resorts cater for people for whom 20k of pistes is sufficient.
It is true that the development would need to provide more than just Standing on skiis on snow, this is why I selected cross fell as it should have the most natural snow most often. The terrain is not the most exciting, but for those who would be bored by the terrain and scope of the resort, the quality of snow would not be good enough for anyway, so they are not the target audience.
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| Quote: |
| The beauty of the IDE machine is, it produces snow using less energy even than a conventional snow gun as it uses unchilled water as the refrigerant. |
In terms or a traditional ski area I believe this is something of a fallacy (there can be huge variations in the cost of turning 1m3 of water into snow in traditional snow making systems, but leaving that aside for now) as the snow from snow guns tends to be made more or less where it's wanted, with an IDE snow maker you have the added costs / energy consumption of getting the snow to where you want it to be.
If you were to build an outside snowsport area based on IDE technology from the start, rather than put it in the 'middle of nowhere', it might be better close to a large a market as possible and preferably within a forested area to provide as much protection from wind, rain and Sun as possible.
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FAQ
