 Poster: A snowHead
|
In a recent article about helmets Boris Johnson wrote 'Skiing is about the wind in your hair and the sun on your face as you personally describe the contours of snow-covered mountains at extraordinary speed. It is the closest many of us come to flight. It is my humble but deep belief that it should involve the maximum communion with nature'. Now I really, really don't want to get into the helmet thread here, but his comments summed up how I feel about skiing and it started me thinking about the increased 'urbanisation' of skiing. By 'urbanisation' I'm not so much talking about the never ending chairlifts marching across the mountains or the endless snow cannons littering the mountain but about the 'street' style clothing worn by some, the pop music blaring from every lift station and snow park, the artificiality of the snow park itself with its skateboard culture airbags, water slides, rails and the focus on tricks rather than 'free' skiing.
Please don't think I'm suggesting that these things should be banned, they are clearly popular with the punters, but am I alone in feeling that the grandeur and wonder of the mountains is being forgotten and a little bit of magic is slipping away as a skiing holiday becomes more and more like a visit to a theme park?
Or am I just a boring old fart?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Yes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
foxtrotzulu, so easy to walk on a bit from the top of the lifts into a different world, without all that noise and stuff.
Its called Off Piste. Where skiing started all those years ago.
The rot set in with the first lift, and then got worse with the arrival of the Piste Basher. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
I'd say some things have their uses, resorts have had to add snow cannon because all their rivals have, the only way resorts survive is to ensure they have a steady influx of punters and those punters want to know there will be snow.
Street Style cothing will probably go out of fashion in the same way as one piece ski suits
Music at lift stations and bars is fine so long as you can't hear it far away, if you can hear it 50M away it's too loud
Snow Parks are usually isolated and I have no issue with people playing in them, I just hope their insurance covers them
Resorts as theme parks, well not yet but I suspect some are close especially those built as dedicated resorts rather than old alpine villages where people have always lived.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
The parks are normally close to the resort, or at the bottom of a cluster of lifts.. just jump on the first long lift you see and get away from it all, the mountains are SO much bigger than the resort and snow-park and you can easily get away from all that, no grandeur lost.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Jonpim, Indeed - I'm sure you're right. Maybe it's just the perspective of time. Perhaps urbanisation has been a smooth and continuous process since skiing began and it's only when one looks back it that one feels a slight sense of loss. However, the encroachment of 'street' culture is possibly a newer trend.
agw
You might at least have added a smilie to that 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Welcome to 1997.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Live and let live. If you don't like the park, go somewhere else - there's plenty of non-urbanised mountain still to play on in every resort.
As for theme parks, have you been to Whistler?!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
feef,
| Quote: |
| The parks are normally close to the resort, or at the bottom of a cluster of lifts |
Al the ones I've seen have been way up on the mountain and nowhere near a cluster of lifts.
Yes, I agree that you can certainly escape snowparks etc. (and they can be quite fun) but I was really wondering if anyone else felt the same way as I do. It's not a big issue, just a little niggle.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
Street Style clothing will probably go out of fashion in the same way as one piece ski suits
|
certainly will once the crotch gets so low it keeps snagging on rails, or preventing whatever the twintip equivalent of inner tip lead is in switch landings.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Cacciatore, meh, Dashed, You all seem to be misunderstanding me a little. I'm not saying things should change back to how they were in 'the good old days' of crap lifts, poor snow, minimal piste bashing etc. I have no problem with snow parks. If I don't like them I just ski past. I wasn't trying to solve a problem, I was just wondering if I was alone in feeling that something had been lost. Perhaps a better analogy would be central heating vs log fires. I wouldn't want to do without CH but one can still mourn the decline of open fires. Happily most/many of us still have both so that's not an issue, but you get my point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think that's the point though isn't it - we can still chose to have both. One doesn't preclude the other so I'm not sure what you feel has been lost?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
foxtrotzulu, I'm not so sure I misunderstand. With the urbanisation, as you put it, there is broader appeal, more commerce and finance. Just what might be needed to ensure that the less structured and more traditional areas have a lifeline to remain just that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
foxtrotzulu, my point was more that the things you complained about are at least over a decade old. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
For me, anything that Boris Johnson says is best ignored. He's obviously a very intelligent bloke but he's also a self-absorbed urbanite twot that doesn't really seem to 'get' many things away from the social circles of his particular London bubble. His imagining of the mountains is from the perspective of an Alpine skier with some privilege and he's like as not just pissed off that he had to share a heated gondola with some Russians. Get him up a real mountain with some real weather and some real snow and he'll be really glad of a head covering and he'll soon be grateful for a bit of 'skiing urbanisation' again.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 15-01-14 12:37; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
Jonpim, Indeed - I'm sure you're right. Maybe it's just the perspective of time. Perhaps urbanisation has been a smooth and continuous process since skiing began and it's only when one looks back it that one feels a slight sense of loss. However, the encroachment of 'street' culture is possibly a newer trend.
agw
You might at least have added a smilie to that |
Yes
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Dashed, Cacciatore, I think the answer to my question is that neither of you feel anything has been lost, and that's fine.
Cacciatore, Your answer above is entirely logical and correct, but my original post wasn't about the practicalities/realities of a resort it was just about the way you feel. I assume that when you hear the music, see the rails etc your spirits lift a little. All I'm saying is that mine dip a little, maybe 1%. Nothing reasoned, nothing logical, just a gut reaction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
moffatross,
| Quote: |
Get him up a real mountain with some real weather and some real snow and he'll be really glad of a head covering
|
...... Maybe he'll wear a hat.
I can't imagine for a second what BJ has done to irritate you so much. His article seems to be completely unrelated to his 'social circle' or life of 'privilege' or his 'London bubble' that you seem so obsessed with. He never mentioned 'skiing urbanisation' anyway. He was talking about helmets.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
meh,
| Quote: |
foxtrotzulu, my point was more that the things you complained about are at least over a decade old.
|
Well maybe things like snowparks were invented back in 1997 but, like all the other things I've mentioned, their presence has grown steadily over the last 5,10,20, 30 years. I wasn't suggesting it was something brand new.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
foxtrotzulu,
So what are you saying - we should go back to the way it was by rippiing all the lifts out?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
foxtrotzulu, might be worth checking out some smaller resorts in weirder places.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| I can't imagine for a second what BJ has done to irritate you so much. |
Well there was this bit  ...
| moffatross wrote: |
| He's obviously a very intelligent bloke but he's also a self-absorbed urbanite twot that doesn't really seem to 'get' many things away from the social circles of his particular London bubble. |
IMO, if you are a punter paying for mechanical uplift from a commercial operation, you have to expect to get what the punters want. In no particular order, in the Alps and for the average holiday maker, that's going to include lots of piste grooming, fancy restaurants, heated seats, flattering ski runs, play parks, music, deck chairs and alcohol.
But if what you're getting as a 'punter' isn't 'real' enough for you, then just climb up a nice mountain without any 'urbanisation' and ski down it it. Lots of people do, and it's usually a very special experience. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
foxtrotzulu, For me too the point of skiing is to get onto the mountainside, feel the wind through my hair and the sunlight (or sometimes snowflakes  ) on my face. To find that quiet spot with no one around and listen to the silence permeated sometimes by the sound or bird song, and to just simply absorb being in the moment. But as said above the point of skiing is quite different for many people.
Over the years as skiing has become more popular and the slopes busier it has become very difficult to find that quiet spot, I truly hope I will always be able to manage it at least once on any trip!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
DB,
| Quote: |
So what are you saying - we should go back to the way it was by rippiing all the lifts out?
|
Not at all, as you will see if you look back at my earlier posts.
| Quote: |
Please don't think I'm suggesting that these things should be banned, they are clearly popular with the punters, but am I alone in feeling that the grandeur and wonder of the mountains is being forgotten and a little bit of magic is slipping away as a skiing holiday becomes more and more like a visit to a theme park? |
I'm not proposing any changes at all and I certainly don't feel the need to go to any of the smaller weirder resorts. As I said before I was just wondering how others felt about the increased urbanisation of skiing. Not a big issue and not something I'm remotely aerated about. My question would be in a similar vein to 'Has anyone noticed how Italian waiters seem more friendly than French ones?'. I'm not proposing charm school for the French (then again...) nor looking for recommendations. It was quite simply a ....'does anyone else feel the same'. The answer so far seems to be 'no'. Which is fine. I was just wondering.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
I'm all for the urbanisation of skiing.
If someone could please organise moving Val D'Isere next to my office in Kinross then I am willing to buy a season pass for next season.....
Let me know when the snow arrives
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
foxtrotzulu, if you want 'au naturale' and mechanical uplift, it sounds like Glencoe ski centre might be good for your soul. If you have a thing against going north but don't want the trappings of holiday maker resorts, there are a zillion sets of day tripper ski lifts in villages all across the Alps. But I know that you already know that.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
In all seriousness, I flew into Milan a few years back with our nippers and my wife and we drove up to a TINY resort call Spiazzi di Gromo, it took about 2 hours to get up there and we had an AMAZING time.
Yes we had to drive to the lifts (10 minutes) but we are pros are getting two toddlers ready to go so it was easy. We then parked, went for a sandwich and hot chocolate (4 euros for drink and salami sandwich) then we bought our day ticket - 15 Euros each for adults, 8 Euros for the bairns and we skied all day, mum and the wee ones skied around and there was no one else there during the week......and I mean NOBODY, I skied all the runs without seeing anyone else for almost 2 hours. We then stopped for lunch and the wee ones played in the snow while we relaxed, there is only one cafe at the bottom but this being Italy it was great quality and cheap.
The weekend was a little busier with bus loads of kids travelling from Bergamo etc but it was still really quiet, nights were quiet, so quiet our third appeared 9 months later...  but we had 2 wee ones so it suited us fine.
Wee had the best holiday and it cost the same as a cheap break to Spain, we were ultra lucky with the snow (a foot of fresh snow appeared the night we arrived) but we could have driven to a higher resort.
Skiing offers lots of variaton, the mega resorts are good but you don't have to go to them, there are FAR cheaper alternatives available and as for the are Italian waiters being cheerier than the French? You should visit a restaurant in NICE them drive over to San Remo (about 12 miles as the crow flies) and the difference in service is unbelievable........and we were there with our French friends, it was them that pointed the difference out.
NB Log fires are VERY dangerous, especially when mixed with wine. We had one in our apartment in Italy and it is directly responsible for our 3rd child. BEWARE!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
This is quite a thought-provoking thread.
Ignoring a horrible school trip that put me off for ten years, I first started ski-ing properly in the mid-1980s. Because I was then a 20-something male in a large group of other 20-something males, inevitably our destinations were of the loud-music-cheap-apres-late-nightclub type, and because I knew nothing else, that all seemed fine to me.
Moving on to my second ski-ing career in the mid-90s, again in largely all-male company, I came to appreciate the quietness of the mountains more, and still remember an epiphany one day, somewhere on the hill between Morzine and Les Gets, where I was struck by the fact that, when stationary and alone, I could hear literally nothing at all, possibly for the first time ever in my life.
My third career from 2002 onwards included my own young family and thus tended to quieter places, leading me to a greater appreciation of the mountains in their own right.
I sometimes hear (what I think is) inappropriately loud music blaring out from the wrong place (the ski school in Champoussin, for example, which is a patch of snow and a storage container and not much else) but generally I find the noise is confined to the towns and villages, and the snow parks which are usually near the towns and villages, and it is easy enough to get away to somewhere quieter. I am not sure anything has really changed in this regard.
As to “street” clothing, I think it is inevitable that people will become more, er, sophisticated in what they wear and will be less inclined to wear all the same, just as they are in real life – compare a 1950s or 1970s street scene with today to see what I mean here. Apart from the occasional visible bottom cleavage, it doesn’t bother me.
Not sure if I have added anything here - ! – but thse are my lunchtime musings for today
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
As I said before I was just wondering how others felt about the increased urbanisation of skiing. |
I'm not all that convinced there is "increased urbanisation". Snow parks are a minute area. As for urban fashion in the mountains, I couldn't give a toss. If I were to indulge in a curmudgeonly old man rant, I dislike the "Folie Douce" boom-boom audible several hundred metres away. But on the whole, if you want a network of fast uplift, it has to be accepted you have stepped into a man-made environment that's bound to act to maximise return on investment. The controversy around the Cairngorm Funicular shows that it is far from the case that everyone wants such development in the mountains but afaik the opposition came mostly from climbers and walkers, not skiers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Sanman
I am glad someone mentioned Portes Du Soliel as it kind of acts as a great example of having both in one place. I ski out of Avoriaz and nearer the plateau and at the bottom in the haut fortes it can be pretty noisy and a little plastic, but a few lifts in any general direction and you can really get away from it all. I sometimes find a lift ride to be one of my favourite thing about a day, if I get on on my own early in the morning on Mossettes I have found it to be a place of great solitude and thinking, often shared only with the gentle whine of the lift and some mountain goats on the cliffs to the left just before you get to the top.
Personal favorites in terms of getting away without having to necessarily risk life and limb off piste
Didier Defago run and then the long blue into Morgins, if on my own will often stop here to admire the forests.
Edges of the Stash, loads of bits of this that don't have millions of skiers firing through them, really feel amongst nature great place to have a sandwich etc.
Bizarrely turn right off the serraseuax lift instead of left towards tetras, ski down a little bit to the left pop off into the trees and again really quiet but not that far away from it all.
There are many many others I have found over the last couple of years, becuase of the arrival of a munchkin my wife and I often ski in turns and this has led me to explore and find remoter and quieter spots whcih are great for contemplation, and personally this is an important part of the holiday for me, giving me time to decompress.
basically I don't know whether ski-ing has become urbanized or not, probably but like most things in this world you can choose your path. everyone seems to be bonkers for twitter these days, does not mean I have to use it and I don't
G
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
A lot of Skiing is a fairly urban experience in terms of fashion, comfort, attitude, expectation etc. Snowboarding even more so.
I wouldn't describe the Alps as 'rural' since so many people live there, its within easy driving range of large parts of Europe and the alps are so industrialised.
'Urban' however does not always mean 'bad' and the great thing about the Alps is that you expect to get (and pay for) a very civilised skiing experience. Which is a good thing.
Rural skiing is still available..... and closer to home 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I think the premise of this thread is a bit silly.
| Quote: |
By 'urbanisation' I'm not so much talking about the never ending chairlifts marching across the mountains or the endless snow cannons littering the mountain but about the 'street' style clothing worn by some
|
Lift service skiing on and around the pistes is already industrialised. Changes to fashion are trivial compared to the building of big lift systems and purpose built mountain restaurants. Don't get me wrong - I love lift served skiing and I also love getting away into the back country / side country where you can't see or here lifts anymore. But street clothing and pop music - hardly makes a difference to man's intrusion on the mountain wilderness does it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
You want magic - go and ski Raise this year.
Skiing to the majority of punters is a theme park activity. Just look at wish lists on here. Ski in/out, hot/cold running everything, easy transfer, nanny, near to lifts, nice grooming, sunny weather, fun apres. Nothing wrong with it - if you want to whittle your own skis and get away from it all you can.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
foxtrotzulu, yes, I have the same feelings as you.
Do you do much off-piste skiing? I'm getting more and more into it, partly to put a little bit of distance between me and the stuff you mention. I'm not at the level of competence or confidence where I would consider doing it without a guide or instructor, so it is quite expensive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Boris Johnson's hair seems to be very thin in places. The scalp is clearly visible.
I expect he will get an expensive barber to fix it for him in due course; same as George Osborne and David Cameron did.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
jedster,
| Quote: |
Lift service skiing on and around the pistes is already industrialised. Changes to fashion are trivial compared to the building of big lift systems and purpose built mountain restaurants. Don't get me wrong - I love lift served skiing and I also love getting away into the back country / side country where you can't see or here lifts anymore. But street clothing and pop music - hardly makes a difference to man's intrusion on the mountain wilderness does it?
|
I think you might argue they are just small, but incremental steps. Although I find music blaring from speakers particularly offensive it always amazes me how short a distance the sound actually travels. TBH the sound of a liftie's radio can sometimes be helpful in a complete white-out to give warning of the end of the lift!
laundryman, Sadly, I'm not an off piste skier. Never really tried it and too lazy to start now!
Peter S,
| Quote: |
'Urban' however does not always mean 'bad' and the great thing about the Alps is that you expect to get (and pay for) a very civilised skiing experience. Which is a good thing.
|
I agree, and I am as addicted to the more civilised skiing experience as the next man. I am the first person to complain about miserable, little French beds.
I think my point is not about the way that the mountains have been civilised, or even industrialised and perhaps 'urbanised' is the wrong word. They just seem to have become a little more 'street' over the years. Not a complaint, just a personal observation. And as others have pointed out if I want a skiing experience that is more 'au naturel' it is available in other, smaller resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
