 Poster: A snowHead
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I have an old pair of B2's for BASI L1 training
They've seen a few seasons before I got em.
The bases feel dry and look greyish.
I've sharpened the edges, done a few small pertex repairs and waxed em, thinking they would be black n glossy when finished....WRONG!
 They still feel dry to the touch, rough compared to a pair of ex-hire skis I have & are still greyish looking, they feel much rougher to the touch/ear than the unwaxed ex-hire ones
Question is: Should I rewax them & continue to do so until happy, in the hope that they will eventually feel like the others (does wax nourish/enrich the pertex?)
Or is it time for a base grind? will that resurrect em?
I don't know if the've been serviced before.
I put a 2deg edge on em and the plastic was coming off before I was cutting metal, so suspect not been messed with before, hence the dry rough bases.
any advice gratefully received
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How are you waxing them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm a novice at this but..... Attended 1 workshop and loads of youtube vids....
Using a flat waxing iron and dripping it on then ironing it in back n forth lengthwise, letting it cool/dry & then scraping them, then brushing, then a rough towel front to back
Is there something I'm missing. Standard practice I thought? 
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First off B2s are a good ski for basi 2 except if they have gone soft you might struggle with the long rads, especially if it's hard snow, but for demoing ct they are perfect. They sound like they need a hot boxing. If they have been hand serviced forever you might have bases that are not flat, it's easily checked by putting something very flat across the base. So long as you have a bit of edge left then a base grind might be good. It's a smart move to have an edge trick tool and keep the edges tip top for short rads, even touching them up at lunch time. The most important thing is that you're on a pair of skis that you are 100% happy with and well used to.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Myself, I'd guess that a base grind would be in the offing. had mine done after 4 years of skiing, came back perfect.
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Sounds good. Just wasn't sure you were using an iron.
I'd heat them again and, while the wax is still warm, give them a good scrape. If you get a load of muck coming off with the wax then repeat the wax and hot scrape until it's clean.
Are the bases smooth and flat? Others may throw their hands up in horror but I use a sanding block with 80 grade paper. It gets the surface flat but with lots of 'texture'.
If your bases are really dry then you may need to wax and cold scrape them several times.
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| jbob wrote: |
| First off B2s are a good ski for basi 2 except if they have gone soft you might struggle with the long rads, especially if it's hard snow, but for demoing ct they are perfect. They sound like they need a hot boxing. If they have been hand serviced forever you might have bases that are not flat, it's easily checked by putting something very flat across the base. So long as you have a bit of edge left then a base grind might be good. It's a smart move to have an edge trick tool and keep the edges tip top for short rads, even touching them up at lunch time. The most important thing is that you're on a pair of skis that you are 100% happy with and well used to. |
I checked the flatness with a metal scraper & no daylight was showing.
However they are a bit floppy, not as much camber/spring as I would expect.
They are just for the run up to & the BASI L1 Assessment (indoors). They've performed ok in 3V's before Xmas, their 1st mountain outing.
If I get a pass and the shadowing hours then I will get some NEW  Skis to use and train on for my level 2. I've tried Rossignol Experience 76 in the fridge and liked em a lot.
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altis, I quite enjoy it, got loads of wax and the kit is still out,
So just to clarify: Repeating several times will improve their condition. Yes?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Should do.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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franzClammer, My old B2's went like noodles after 5 years as the foam core seemed to lose a lot of it's resistance. I did find that changing the side angle to 3 degrees really helped them to keep an edge when doing turns.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| altis wrote: |
| .....Are the bases smooth and flat? Others may throw their hands up in horror but I use a sanding block with 80 grade paper. It gets the surface flat but with lots of 'texture'..... |
Nowt wrong with that if you haven't got access to a decent base grind. 60grit even better followed by a few passes with 150grit to take off any micro hairs 
franzClammer, on skis of that age it's probably worth getting a base grind but if you haven't got a good local shop & the bases are already flat then hand sanding as above (tip to tail only) followed by a hot scape clean is the way to go. Good plan on B2's re the 2 degree side edge but you'll need to trim the sidewalls back a tad to get at the metal properly - trim just enough off so that you can catch your finger nail on the top of the side edge.
The function of the iron is two fold: first to melt/spread the wax on the base but second (& really importantly) to warm up/expand the base to allow the wax to be absorbed so you need to keep ironing until you can feel warmth on the underside of the ski (ie on the topsheet) at the tips'n'tails so every pass or two of the iron keep touching the top sheet to check - you want warm but not hot. The ski should be loose in the vice when ironing to allow it to expand/decamber as it warms up. Only test the ski temperature at the tip's'tails as if you iron until the thicker central section of the ski gets warm you'll have cooked the thinner sections by then!!! Then let fully cool before scraping & brushing. And the more wax/scrape/brush cycles the better.
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You know it makes sense.
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spyderjon, I just clicked on your website. We live in Nottingham (during the summer when we're not in La Plagne) so may well bring our ski's to The Piste Office next year to give them a proper tune up! I had no idea there was such a place in Nottingham!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spyderjon, Thank you
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Poster: A snowHead
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Kelsey, why not do the course that Jon runs
Then you can do your own whilst in resort
He also does good tea and biscuits. Just don't book on his fasting day 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just looking at your prices. Is the DIY Tuning Tuition (at £90) per person or would that be for us both if myself and my partner wanted to do it?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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franzClammer, I have second hand B2's that were a bit dry when I got them and also my missus ski's got really dry at some point. I only waxed them once and then seemed back on song. I suspect Jon's advice might be the key..
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The function of the iron is two fold: first to melt/spread the wax on the base but second (& really importantly) to warm up/expand the base to allow the wax to be absorbed so you need to keep ironing until you can feel warmth on the underside of the ski (ie on the topsheet) at the tips'n'tails so every pass or two of the iron keep touching the top sheet to check - you want warm but not hot. The ski should be loose in the vice when ironing to allow it to expand/decamber as it warms up. Only test the ski temperature at the tip's'tails as if you iron until the thicker central section of the ski gets warm you'll have cooked the thinner sections by then!!!
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as I know I was nervous about overheating but the bit about getting the heat come through the topsheet helped and gave me confidence to keep going longer than I might have. The missus really complements me on the standard of the waxing, though she's been a little critical on the edge hold. Her Bandits are getting on a bit now so I may go to a 3 degree edge angle as mentioned above.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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May
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Layne, Just warn her that she will find that they hook up and turn a little more quickly than before on a harder packed snow.
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yes. Be careful there. 3 degree egdes are definitely grabbier.
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I have been thinking for a while if I should even write something, as I'm pretty sure certain person, who didn't post anything in this thread now, will surely jump on this one again, but... what the hell 
Sorry spyderjon, but there are few things, which are totally off. I'm not going into sanding skis with sand paper, as this will most likely still somehow do for recreational skiing, even though I'm still sticking with "NEVER EVER!! touch ptex with sand paper, unless you are going for wax zone on xc skis". But that "heating skis until topsheet is warm" is something what really made me write this (yeah I know I rather shouldn't).
Skis are glued together, many low end models have even all sorts of foams in core of ski instead of wood, so heating skis so much that top sheet is warm is everything but good for it. You should heat wax only that much that you melt it and wax penetrates ptex. Pores on ptex are open enough for melted wax to penetrate ptex, especially since you normally try to wax skis on room temperature and not somewhere outside at -10c. Another thing why you shouldn't overheating wax and ptex is wax itself. Sure this doesn't matter much with recreational skiing, but my serviceman background is in World cup racing where every second counts, so these things matter there. Same wax works differently if you wax at lower or at higher temperature (it depends on conditions what temperature to use), but what is even more important is, that with heating wax is slowly losing its speed. So the more you heat it, the slower it gets. And once you heat things so much topsheets are warm (even on tip and tails where skis are still over 0.5cm thick), wax and ptex are way overheated.
No offense for this, but if we give suggestions, let's try to give good ones
Layne, and Chris Bish, side angle doesn't really matter much, and you won't notice difference between 1, 3 or 6 degree angle. Well actually you will notice it if you are skiing on injected courses, where you need really sharp skis. What makes ski "grabbier" is base angle, and that's what most of people forget to even bother about. 0.1 or 0.2 degrees on base angle makes huge difference, so that's angle I would be worried about, not side angle.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks folks
I've now waxed scraped & brushed em more than 5 times, heating through gently, including scraping whilst they were still warm,
then another wax(using yellow Butta) and lots of brushing out with brass then nylon & a good rub with a rough tea towel.
They have improved somewhat, but still miles off what I expected, so a base grind after Tignes is in order.
I've stuck with the 2 degrees edge, which is now sharp enough for me to get a little cut off of em, gloves now for brushing out 
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primoz, Agree about base angle being more about the grabbiness, or speed of hook up. But I found that the foam core of the B2s really degenerated over time, on the 2 degree side angle which I had them at they still had difficulty on fresh morning frozen pistes and would wash out. Switching to three for sides really did seem to make a difference to these old skis. Saying that, last year I had my 98mm underfoot skis with a three degree edge and found it almost impossible to keep grip just after the world cup comps (but the blue was still showing through), swap to slalom skis and no problem at all. But if you are used to a soft ski skidding a lot on the tips and tails then the increase in side angle may be quite a substantial part in the riders perception.
B2's came with 1:1 angles from the shop, a lot of people reported them struggling on hard pistes whilst still being ok on softer snow. In spring skiing refreezing cycles or on very scraped sections it can get fairly icy underfoot.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Layne wrote: |
franzClammer, I have second hand B2's that were a bit dry when I got them and also my missus ski's got really dry at some point. I only waxed them once and then seemed back on song. I suspect Jon's advice might be the key..
| Quote: |
The function of the iron is two fold: first to melt/spread the wax on the base but second (& really importantly) to warm up/expand the base to allow the wax to be absorbed so you need to keep ironing until you can feel warmth on the underside of the ski (ie on the topsheet) at the tips'n'tails so every pass or two of the iron keep touching the top sheet to check - you want warm but not hot. The ski should be loose in the vice when ironing to allow it to expand/decamber as it warms up. Only test the ski temperature at the tip's'tails as if you iron until the thicker central section of the ski gets warm you'll have cooked the thinner sections by then!!!
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as I know I was nervous about overheating but the bit about getting the heat come through the topsheet helped and gave me confidence to keep going longer than I might have. The missus really complements me on the standard of the waxing, though she's been a little critical on the edge hold. Her Bandits are getting on a bit now so I may go to a 3 degree edge angle as mentioned above. |
Layne,
didnt we discuss base and edge angles a little while ago?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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franzClammer, for base angles you need a very cheap plastic guide for your file. The big issue is it's a bit of a one way trip. You can't go back, if it has 0.5 you can touch it up a little, but never file it back to 0. Likewise other angles, you can file them greater but need a base grind to reset to 0. I hope that makes sense.
I have a toko express in the car, it's fine if you have not waxed your skis and it's all a bit sticky, just give em a wipe.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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primoz, sorry but I didn't get your explanation at all. For the record I usually wax in a garage in winter so pretty chilly. The topsheet gets tepid and then a short time after I stop waxing warm. I wax the ski's in sections but also repass to keep the heat across the ski for longer. I am pretty certain I am not overheating. If someone as I think you are suggesting just melts the wax, then unless the ski is already very quite warm I would be surprised the wax is penetrating a great deal. And this is all about penetration is it not.
Regarding side edge angle. Mmmm, no difference between 1 and 6 degrees... really? I don't mess with the base angle.
Avalanche Poodle, Chris Bish, I think from what she is telling me, that is exactly what she wants.
ansta1, we did discuss... I think "we" agreed to disagree?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Layne, Yup, but it can catch you out. I changed my angles and was used to getting the skis on edge and chattering across the surface (ok, they were a bit blunt too). I spent a fair bit of time with metal and diamond files, and suddenly the skis started biting properly. Nothing like a proper tight radius ski, but it certainly made it more enjoyable
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Layne, there is difference between side angles, but not in how ski feels, but in this how good it will hold on ice. And here I mean real ice like injected courses which are completely different sort of ice then ice you normally get on ski resorts. Injected courses are sometimes (or actually most of time) like ice hockey field put on slope, and there you need all the sharpness you can get. With angles from 4 to 6 degrees you get more sharpness so ski holds better on that ice, but real sharpness is also gone sooner. With 3 degrees sharpness lasts longer, but ski holds a bit worse on real ice. But as I wrote, majority of recreational skiers never ski on injected courses so this is not an issue. Even if you go skiing on same slope where race was previous day, course is groomed after race so things are not all that bad anymore as they were during race, so 4-6 degree angles are normally overkill for recreational skiing, especially, since with this, you basically need to do your skis every day, what most of people don't do.
With base angles things are different. This angle is really what makes ski catch or not, depending on angle. It also depends on ski what angle to use (for SL skis I normally use 0.1-0.2, for GS 0.3 and SG skis 0.5-0.7). When you are going in straight line and you hold skis perfectly flat (pretty hard with SL or most of short recreational skis with radius under 15m) everything is ok, but as soon as you put ski to a bit of angle ski will start grabbing. And with low angles it will grab right away, with bigger angles, it will catch a bit later. That's why I say, that using low angles (unless you know why you are using them) can be pretty dangerous, especially for not experienced skier, as ski can catch when you don't even expect it.
As far as waxing goes, you normally wax with iron heated above 100c (normally 120-190c, depending on wax and conditions you are waxing for). Ptex is about 1-1.5mm thick or even thinner (depending on how many stone grindings ski has behind already), so it really doesn't take much to get it warm enough for wax to penetrate.
PS: Which part of my explanation you didn't understand? I admit my English is everything but great, and sometimes I have problems explaining things in English, especially when it gets a bit more technical. Sorry for this.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| Layne, there is difference between side angles, but not in how ski feels, but in this how good it will hold on ice. |
In that case I think we had a communication breakdown. Because as I said earlier the wife was complaining about "edge hold" not the feel of the ski (which we would probably have to define anyhow as it seems a bit woolly).
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That's why I say, that using low angles (unless you know why you are using them) can be pretty dangerous, especially for not experienced skier, as ski can catch when you don't even expect it.
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As I understand most manufacturers ship with a 1 degree angle and for recreational skiing it's recommended not to change it. I appreciate you the warning but I for one have no intention of deliberately messing with the base angle.
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Which part of my explanation you didn't understand?
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This in particular... "but what is even more important is, that with heating wax is slowly losing its speed. So the more you heat it, the slower it gets."
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Layne, on the last point it could be something to do with boiling off the shorter chain hydrocarbons but that's just a guess. Given that we're in the territory of almost zero decent research and people still think sintered PTEX has pores that need to be opened up I don't hold out hope of getting a good answer.
ETA: Before anyone takes the above wrong, yes ski bases are porous, yes wax is helpful in reducing friction as is making sure the bases are free of dings and micro hairs. It's just for 90% of skiing in 90% of conditions it's not so helpful as to make a huge difference in experience as the ski base already has a really low coefficient of friction.
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| Layne wrote: |
As I understand most manufacturers ship with a 1 degree angle and for recreational skiing it's recommended not to change it. I appreciate you the warning but I for one have no intention of deliberately messing with the base angle. |
The stock base/side edge angles vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, so it's not always 1/1
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| Quote: |
The stock base/side edge angles vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, so it's not always 1/1
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The 1 I referred to was purely base edge which I said "most" manufacturers supply set to 1 as per spyderjons list http://www.jonsskituning.co.uk/content/view/31/41/
Side edges vary a lot more.
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Sorry primoz, I don’t normally post alot on these forums but in this case I thought I would waste a bit of time.
Wet and Dry paper don’t know what you are talking about, many athletes’ are using this method both on NorAm and Europa and WC level as slight issue on base you 'work' it out due to the structure of the ski they are using which is fav for conditions this is a susceptible method to blend in or out an issue to cont using the structured base for conditions atm.
You are talking about 0.1 0r 0.2’ on base bev. Jeez what are you talking about this forum is for recreational skiers. You keep on referring to your back ground as WC Tech? So I have also tech’ed at WC level, Europa athletes and NorAm guys passing through training in Europe....yawn.. Its no big deal and I bet I am more recent then you, but guess what, no one cares, hardly anyone knows me, only the guys that need to know me so stop using WC as a reference as its cheesy.
Seriously Snow Forum people, if you have gone as far as buying the equipment to service your skis, go a bit further and spend a day with a reputable service specialist that will walk and talk you through it. Don't get 'tips' off this forum or waste your time scanning You Tube vids of ski servicing, spend a little bit more of your hard earned cash and learn it from a tech that knows.
Or if you have lots of money and wish to spend the entire day with a glazed look on your face whilst I talk about race structure, layering and base bevel combinations for specific race disciplines come onto one of my courses, it will probably be totally over your head but at least you will have some real techy stuff to tell your mates when you are in the pub at your fav resort.
Instructors/Coaches/Racers – you shouldn’t be even reading this and wasting your time..... especially racers go do some dryland.
Primoz you are the Gary Anderson of the ski service world...190’c for wax..good luck with that I’m sure the topsheet wont get warm...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Edge2Win, 180-190c is for powders not for hardwax, but yeah fluoro powders still count as wax, or at least they did when I was around. I didn't get your "Wet and Dry paper don’t know what you are talking about". But if this refers to sand paper, then no, noone is using sand paper on race skis (at least when it comes to XC (not talking about kick zone), where skis matter even more then in alpine, and to DH&SG skis). Simply because you make too much damage to base of skis and it makes skis much much slower. But never mind, I'm sure you guys know better.
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Edge2Win, yup agreed... stone grinding and belt sanding are well used on all skis and a bit of sandpaper is used all the time and if the Ptex was put in correctly to start no issues. Base bevels of .5 degree or lower for rec skiers is almost dangerous as is >3 degree side. up to advanced level skiers should stick with 1 deg base and 1 side, adv experts 2 (3 if you are a heavyweight and / or can actually hold an edge when bending a ski) When tuning feel and sound is really important and you cant get that from a video or by reading a guide. A little knowledge isnt always a good thing and I see a load of bad practice with people trying to self tune.
Disagree slightly in that Instructors and coaches should have a degree of knowledge and the ability to keep their own skis sharp and to show students/athletes how sharp is sharp. Couldnt agree more about dry land training but another subject as I sit here with a sore knee typing !
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FAQ
Very poor form I know). Could not believe the difference! I about wiped out almost immediately. Not sure whether I did it 'right' though... I used our apartments iron to melt the wax 
