 Poster: A snowHead
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Ok, So I know the stock line is - "don't be cheap when buying one of these, you can't put a price on life" etc...
But budget is important to me, I don't mind spending the money, but I also don't want to buy a rolls royce just to drive to the shops if you know what I mean. I am looking for something that is easy to use, I am prepared to practice, but I want a transceiver that will make sense when everything goes wrong and I need to use it anger!
We will be spending as much time as possible off piste next season (touring and just finding interesting lines) and I also intended to get some more avalanche training!! There will normally be two of us skiing, but occasionally more.
Anyone got any advice/opinion on which one to get??
Currently looking at this http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/specifications.asp#tableArvaEvo3PlusHeader
Also I need to buy two of these, so I assume matching would be good, so we can remind each other of how they work when we're learning!
Thanks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't think you can beat the version before last of the BCA Tracker for being a price conscious transceiver with a good reputation.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BenAS, don't know about the Evo3 but I've got an Arva Link and can't praise it enough for ease of use.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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To cut a long story short...
Go for a 3 antenna beacon.
The third antenna really does help with the search and eliminate spikes.
Any of the following would be a solid choice.
- BCA Tracker 2 (super easy and simple to use)
- Pieps DSP (extra features for multiple burials, debatable if these help or are just marketing feature)
- Mammut Pulse (again extra features for multiple burials, debatable if these help or are just marketing feature)
The ARVA 3+ beacon you link to gets a very good write up, but is less common. Small French company. Not used one, but it looks very good to me - plus beacon reviews rates it 5 star. Can probably be added to the list above.
If you must go cheap then the BCA Tracker 1 is still a great beacon, though it is only has 2 antenna and has a slower processor than the updated Tracker 2.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 1-10-12 10:32; edited 2 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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BenAS, Suggest BCA Tracker 2, had a BCA 1 and the newer version is much slimmer and easier to use.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've got an Ortovox 3+ which has some of the multi-burial features you see on similar models.
But certainly, going for a 'digital' 3-antennae model is a good start. The additional features? I'm not sure they are worth it.
One of the things I was considering with some of it's 'extra' features (which is common to a number of makes and models)
If you're doing a search, with it in receive, then it will automatically switch to transmit again if it detects no motion for ( I think) 12 seeconds.
The idea is that if you're caught in a second avalanche while doing the search, your beacon will transmit rather than stay on received.
One of the things that crossed my mind about this feature is that if you're searching, it's not unlikely that you'll be holding the transceiver in your hand, rather than wearing it. If so, it's probably going to get knocked out your hand if you are struck by a secondary slide. This would mean your fancy beacon would get dug out, but you might not.
Also, if you have located someone, it's quite possible that you'd put your beacon down to dig. unless you remember to disable to transmit, then again, it will automatically switch to transmit mode and may confuse other searchers.
I've got a Pieps backup transmitter which is supposed to mitigate against this eventuallity. It will ONLY transmit if it detects no other signals being transmitted. It remains strapped to you at all times and you disable the transmit failback on your main transceiver. Then if you are caught in a second slip, it will be safely transmitting your location. That it only transmits when no other signals are deteceted does mean you are likely to be the last one dug out in that particular circumstance, but it's still better than nothing.
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I always go for the one with the strongest transmission signal 
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| I always go for the one with the strongest transmission signal |
I'd always go for the one that was 'panicking idiot' proof.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| I always go for the one with the strongest transmission signal |
Ah a fellow F1 user then?
Actually when we did a sHs practice in Richmond a few years ago a couple of us with F1s were pretty fast on the multiple search too. May have just been more practice however.
Edit: To clarify for the OP I wouldn't buy an F1 now - there is far easier to use digital stuff that simplifies rather than overwhelms with data these days.
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Some great advice, the follow up question for a bonus point is - where to buy?? - here/online (if so where) or in the alps/france.. (again if so where).
Interesting about talking off your receiver or not having it attached when you're searching, I've always wondered about that and thought that you would have it attached some how more to stop you from dropping it and seeing it slide down the hill as well as to avoid secondary slides.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
...
- Pieps DSP (extra features for multiple burials, debatable if these help or are just marketing feature)
- Mammut Pulse (again extra features for multiple burials, debatable if these help or are just marketing feature) |
Definitely agree with the advice about buying a 3-antennae digital transceiver. They're much easier for inexperienced users. I've got the Pulse and found it very easy for single burials and the ability to mark and ignore a signal made multiple burials much more straightforward to deal with than other transceivers I've used. Fortunately my only experience of single and multiple burials is under exam conditions rather than for real, but the extra feature for multiple burials that the Pulse (and other transceivers) offer is certainly worth the extra cash as fas as I'm concerned.
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You know it makes sense.
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| BenAS wrote: |
| Interesting about talking off your receiver or not having it attached when you're searching, I've always wondered about that and thought that you would have it attached some how more to stop you from dropping it and seeing it slide down the hill as well as to avoid secondary slides. |
The Pulse also has a lanyard which attaches it to the holster. Seems like an obvious safety features, so wouldn't all transceivers have this?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| BenAS wrote: |
| Interesting about talking off your receiver or not having it attached when you're searching, I've always wondered about that and thought that you would have it attached some how more to stop you from dropping it and seeing it slide down the hill as well as to avoid secondary slides. |
The Pulse also has a lanyard which attaches it to the holster. Seems like an obvious safety features, so wouldn't all transceivers have this? |
yes, but a simple lanyard could quite easily snap in the event of a secondary slide. That's the whole point of having it strapped to your body, under your jacket in the first place isn't it? 
I think the lanyard is more to prevent it being dropped and lost than to keep it attached to you in the event of a secondary
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Poster: A snowHead
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I have Ortovox Digital Patroller, it's very simple in operation and very accurate too - I was getting faster search times than people in my group with more advanced models. The only inconvenience is that it doesn't have a landyard for easy access, so for searchig you need to peel layers off first. But it only takes seconds anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| feef wrote: |
yes, but a simple lanyard could quite easily snap in the event of a secondary slide. That's the whole point of having it strapped to your body, under your jacket in the first place isn't it?
I think the lanyard is more to prevent it being dropped and lost than to keep it attached to you in the event of a secondary |
Sure, but it's better than nothing. Obviously you need to unclip the transceiver from your body in order to use it, and I'd rather there was some protection (either from losing it in the snow and wasting critical time, or getting caught in a secondary) than no protection at all. The lanyard also allows you to simply drop the transceiver when you want to start probing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My Ortovox M2 has a body harness.
In the event of an avalanche, you unclip one side and begin searching.
If a secondary slide occurs the transceiver is still attached to the body and located under at least one layer of clothing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
...
- Pieps DSP...Fortunately my only experience of single and multiple burials is under exam conditions rather than for real, but the extra feature for multiple burials that the Pulse (and other transceivers) offer is certainly worth the extra cash as fas as I'm concerned. |
Multiple burials is another topic.
Though FWIW I have 2 problems with the multiple burials features...
1. The only real world scenario you would ever actually use the multiple burial feature is with 2 buried victims plus 2 searchers on the surface. (Even with this scenario it *may* actually be better for both searchers to spend their time digging out victim number 1, thus maximizing chances for 1 survivor).
2. The multiple burial feature is very crude. It works by simply ignoring / masking out specific time slots. However there is a significant (approx 10-20%) chance of beacons unmasking themselves due to frequency drift between the 2 buried beacons. This flaw is due to the current standards used by all avalanche beacons. Every beacon transmits the same signal so differentiating between them is tricky and unreliable. Searchers should still understand what is going on with the flux lines and learn a proper multiple victim technique (either strip search or 3 circle).
Multiple burial features should not be a deciding factor. Much more important is to choose a beacon that is quick, easy and simple to use as priority.
Certainly the multiple feature can be fun to play with in the park - however it is debatable if its little more than a marketing feature. Much more important to concentrate on the basic like how to probe, shovel plus fine gird searches to resolve spikes (which is where 3rd antenna really helps)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thanks for the links guys, funny as Mosha Marc, says
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I always go for the one with the strongest transmission signal
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Its possible that would be any of the Ortovox Transceivers with the Plus system, this is where the transmission aerial auto transmits on the best plane so others should be able to pick up your signal a little sooner, from some of our practise runs it gives approx 5 to 10 meters advantage, but this is very dependent on conditions, and burial angle of the transceiver.
I tend to agree with Haggis_Trap, keep it simple, multiple burials are rare and a really good shovelling technique is very important as this is usually the longest part of the rescue in terms of time.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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BenAS, I bought and Arva 3 2 years ago for a bargain price of £150 in decathlon, and they're still selling them at the same price. The customer service was awful, and it took ages to get it delivered, but it works fine, and is simple to use. Recommended
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also in the market to renew my peeps, this seems to get good reviews and seems very easy to use, as per the recommendations above.
Any reasons not to get one of these?? BCA Tracker 2 (super easy and simple to use)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I got the BCA Tracker 2 - super easy to use, better ergonomics than the Tracker that I was upgrading from - but no multiple burial mode, just when I thinK i can undertstand it.. and skiing in larger (guided!!) groups - 5/6 skiers - where if avalanched it will probably be guide and client no 1 (if 2 skiers..)
so already thinking of moving on! (but will keep it for Mrs).
Conclusion: great simple uncomplicated beacon. But if you are the sort of person who is thinking about Beacons and has already had one, by definition it may be now behind you.
And I would upgrade to the K2 rescue shovel (with hoe feature!!! ) before I did anything else. Digging/Shovelling - the unsung, unglamourous part of avalanche rescue...
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Small point: good idea, if you normally wear reading glasses, to make sure you're buying a transceiver which you can 'read' without having to scrabble for your spectacles first! That's an extra element of faff you will want to avoid in an extreme situation.
Some of us did some transceiver practice on Primrose Hill last autumn. This is a quote from the relevant thread, by Zero-G, who organised the session (which was very useful and enjoyable, I'm hoping for a repeat):
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| We had a small variety of trannies: several BCA Tracker, two Ortovox 3+ and a Mammut Barryvox Pulse. Pedantica tried all three and found the Barryvox the easiest to use...With regards to having to reboot the 3+ so that I could locate the 3rd/4th victim, I had to do this twice. But on two other occasions, didn't have to. So the jury is still out on whether this is needed as standard. |
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
I got the BCA Tracker 2 - super easy to use, better ergonomics than the Tracker that I was upgrading from - but no multiple burial mode
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mishmash, there is the special feature on the Tracker 2 which enables search for multiple burials, this needs a little practice to get used to, BCA make their transceivers as simple as possible for single burial which is the most common search. The special feature does not mask or flag as some people call it, located transceivers. So you have to manually press the rather well hidden button on the front of the transceiver to enter special mode.
If you have already got used to the Tracker 2 then its worth practising with this feature before investing in the transceivers which do multiple burial rather well, these being the Ortovox S1+ and the Barryvox Pulse.
Good point about reading glasses 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have tried quite a few out , I have a Pulse but for holiday skiers I would go for a Tracker 2 and a decent shovel... I had a Tracker 1 but imo they are rubbish and I wouldnt go cheap for one of those.
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skimottaret, I think I've seen the Tracker 1 in more bars than any other model. What didn't you like about it?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I think I've seen the Tracker 1 in more bars than any other model.
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sums it up well  sorry too busy to get into it today..
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Although over 10 years old the Tracker 1 is still a great digital beacon... Would have no problems with a partner using one.
Both Tracker 1 and Tracker 2 have a 'special mode' that narrows the search angle for multiple burials. Though the user needs to learn the 3 circle multi victim search technique.
The main reason to upgrade to a Tracker 2 is the
- 3rd antenna
- faster processor.
- multi victim indicator light
All of these were very noticeable improvements when I played with the BCA beacons in the Glencoe avalanche training park. There will also be a BCA T3 this autumn (which will contain a mask function for multi victim).
There are obviously plenty great beacons on the market, though multivictim search capability should not top the list of differentiating factors. Generally the feature rich beacons (S1 / Mammut Pulse / Pieps DSP) are more suited to pro ski patrollers / UIAGM who train regularly and understand exactly what is happening with flux lines. The lifesign feature of the Mammut Pulse is a classic example of unnecessary crap with potential to confuse. The simpler models (BCA Tracker 2 / Ortovox 3+ / Mammut Element / Arva 3+) should be considered by weekend warriors and holiday makers whose main priority should be rapid 'point and shoot' search simplicity IMHO.
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Poster: A snowHead
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livetoski,
I obviously need to refresh myself pre season - thanks to you and Haggis for the reminder.
Refresher training - another key component of avalanche safety!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Although over 10 years old the Tracker 1 is still a great digital beacon... Would have no problems with a partner using one.
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Neither would I. Wouldn't buy one now, though.
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The lifesign feature of the Mammut Pulse is a classic example of unnecessary crap with potential to confuse
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I don't think it is confusing. I just have an ethical problem with triage with substantially incomplete information. I still own one, though.
My experience with the Pulse has been that it is quick with single burials and quick with multi as well. I'm fat, slow and out of practice but have found that the unit flatters me somewhat. I've got a sneaking suspicion that my experience is generalisable and that well designed units that do single well will also do multi well, although I've not used enough newer models to back that up.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just my tuppence worth on the multiple burial feature to add to what Haggis_Trap, said.
Other real world scenario where it could be used is where you locate someone who is deeply buried. While unpalatable you should probably mask their signal (but mark the landscape!) and look for other victims who may be much nearer the surface.
Thankfully not a decision I've had to make.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| gilo wrote: |
Just my tuppence worth on the multiple burial feature to add to what Haggis_Trap, said.
Other real world scenario where it could be used is where you locate someone who is deeply buried. While unpalatable you should probably mask their signal (but mark the landscape!) and look for other victims who may be much nearer the surface.
Thankfully not a decision I've had to make..... |
The tricky decision there is... how do you know if they aren't the one that IS closest to the surface.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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^ the only way you can estimate burial depth is by probing... sadly the probability of a single rescuer locating, and digging out, 2 victims within the critical 15 minute window are slim at best (though people dont like to hear that information).
before starting any transceiver search you should always take a moment to inspect the debris for obvious visual clues - maybe a hand or boot sticking out the snow.
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Haggis_trap, et al,
I've always been slightly perplexed by this continuous drive for 'multi victim' support.
I've never seen stated the rule that you 'find all parties' before digging.... and if you want to dig, the more people you have, the more efficient it is.
At what point do you decide when to 'search OR dig'.
Some scenarios to highlight:
If you're in a small group, and one person is buried, everyone else searches, then everyone digs.
If small group, >1 buried... do you
a - find all the bodies, then start digging (the shallowest one?). may not have enough diggers for bodies, and digging is slow.
b - find one body, finder digs, remainder search. As next body found, searcher stops to dig. slow digging.
c - find one body, all dig & rescue, then search for next. Fastest way to get an individual out.
How does one decide which of a-c to follow? (assume all participants fully kitted out)
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hamilton, God forbid that any of us ever get in that situation but I reckon I'd be digging rather than doing a roll-call, first 15 mins is critical and if theres someone about to die I'd just be getting them out whilst others carried on the search. Similarly I'd hope the same if anyone was looking for me.
Or am I wrong? interesting thread this one..............
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You are not supposed to take time triaging snow depths (unless you have already done it by probe as part of a multi party search anyway) Just because someone is near the surface does not make them alive. You go for the first you detect, usually after a visual search as mentioned above, get them out, stabilise them and then go for the next. Time is the one of the major factors for survival here and the important thing to get as many out as quickly as possible, not to ponce around making judgment calls with limited info. e.g. two people could be trapped one under the other and you will only know this when you actually get to them.
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In simple terms there is no perfect answer to the multi victim scenario. Though often it is the 'dig time' as opposed to 'search time' that is critical. Personally I would probably use all searchers to try and clear the airways of victim 1 before going looking for victim 2. However this would obviously very dependent on the the specific incident, and location of each searcher, once a victim is found.
As ever discussion on 'which Avalanche Beacon' ends up talking about 'Multi Victim Search features'. However this should not be the primary differentiating factor used to select a beacon. 99.9% skiers, including myself, would be much better concentraing on the basics - for example...
1. Be sure all searchers have switched out of transmit mode before starting any search.
2. Initial grid search until a signal is picked up.
3. Follow flux lines (beacon doesnt take a straight line).
4. Fine grid search in the final phase.
5. Probe techniques.
6. Efficient digging techniques.
All this is simple stuff in theory - but remembering the details under stress would be a different story. 1, 4,5 & 6 are all things that people forget about because they have only ever searched for a beacon located on the surface in their local park.
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FAQ
