 Poster: A snowHead
|
So, I had big hopes that I'd see an improvement after my intensive lessons at the EoSB, but I've watched all the video footage I've got and I still reckon I ski like a damn woodentop. I am fairly cross with myself for still looking as bad as I do. I have just found a few more files to go through, but so far I've picked what I think are the best 5 minutes that I've got and I still look hopeless. I suspect that I am missing something vital - is there, perhaps, just one thing that I could do overall that would improve how it looks? I'd be very pleased if someone could work out what it is and let me know.
https://vimeo.com/66015440
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 14-05-13 20:24; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Megamum, what were you expecting to see which you don't on the video??
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
You're a bit frightened of the downhill part of the turn I think, and getting stuck in traverses. Then making a quick skiddy turn, and spending far too long saying 'shall I turn? shan't I? shall I? Uh oh, running out of piste, better turn!'. There was a lot of skidding, almost side slipping.
If you're scared of the fall line, and going too fast, do everything slower. Not slow traverses and quick turns. Slow deliberate carves where the traverse is as short-lived as the down-the-fall-line part of the turn.
I'm not an instructor, as you know, but I would let yourself open up the throttle a bit more. And be a bit more up-and-down flexible - you look a bit static to my eyes. I know there was a really interesting argument about this not too long ago (started by one of the Inside Out guys, one of whom will be along in a moment to a) give you the right answer and b) point out that I haven't given the right answer), but I think you could be a bit more uppy-downey personally.
Also, you're skiing OK and enjoying yourself I presume. Don't sweat it too much. You were getting down all that just fine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
kitenski, I wanted to see the skier in my minds eye - you know, the one that is gliding effortlessly down the hill moving from edge to edge with freedom and obvious enjoyment. What do I see? Muggins has no up and down movement, a huge traverse - still! skis that still do a fish tail at the back before loads of the turns although I can't feel them doing it, no upper lower body, separation at the hips - shall I go on? There must be something that needs to click and it just won't do it. I've got fair control of my edges, there was hardly an exercise I was asked to do that I couldn't replicate as well as I felt I needed to, I can get down most 'red' things, I just don't look as though I know what I am doing - I think that's what I want to do - look as though I know what I am doing!!
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 12-05-13 21:43; edited 3 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
it takes time to learn and act on what you have learned, maybe you will find after a break and on your next ski hol you do improve from this set of lessons, I always see my best improvements some time after maybe that's just me but it takes a while to sink in and become second nature
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
ok I guess I asked for that 
But (caveat) I've never skied with you, and I reckon your in the intermediate plateau where it takes a lot of time on skis to improve. You make huge improvements from a beginner to an intermediate then I'm afraid your improvement does slow down quite a lot...but I'll take a stab at a few things.
I'd also say there is no silver bullet, one thing ain't going to make a massive improvement overnight. I reckon a week of solid BASI 1 (9-5) skiing made changes for me, as did 2 weeks of l2 (9-3 virtually every day)
so
huge traverse - Well that is the simplest to fix, just stop traversing Try a rhythm you are happy with, ie turn, 1 2 3, turn, 1, 2 ,3. That flow with the same amount of time spent in the left and right turn will look a lot smoother.
skies that still do a fish tail at the back before loads of the turns although I can't feel them doing it, - concentrate on getting the weight early onto the new outside ski and keeping it there will help. More speed would help....
no upper lower body, separation at the hips - that's getting very technical and I suspect you've read about this on snowheads. You need to be travelling a fair bit faster and wanting/starting to use your edges before you get into this technical aspect.
up/down movement - what benefit do you think this is going to give you???
I do think your over analysing and stressing about some technical points, ie point 3. Other things like flow and spending less time in the traverse you can fix pretty easily IMHO.
and chill out, enjoy, get some miles under your belt, get down to the IOS sessions and enjoy your skiing.
all IMHO
Cheers,
Greg
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sun 12-05-13 21:49; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well I'm no expert but are you using your poles enough?
Well done for being brave enough to post a video!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| kitenski wrote: |
I do think your over analysing and stressing about some technical points, ie point 3. Other things like flow and spending less time in the traverse you can fix pretty easily IMHO. |
I think this as well, absolutely.
Flow/feel is what you need. Stop concentrating on some technical idea about what you should be doing so much, just try and lose yourself in it a bit. Quicken the pace, and allow yourself to have a few 'that was close' moments, maybe even a few wipeouts. You'll also have a few fist-pumping moments where you 'got it'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
snowymum,
| Quote: |
Well I'm no expert but are you using your poles enough?
|
No, I'm not. In a whole week I remembered to do pole plants/flicks for all of one short run  However, that in itself is a 100% improvement to most of my ski weeks!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Disclaimer: I'm NOT an instructor. And I won't have a problem if contributing instructors will disagree with the suggestions below.
But, since you're looking for one thing... one thing that worked for me over the years, especially in the first day or two of skiing after a break, was to significantly exaggerate the flex in my ankles / legs / hips. (Yes I did mean to add significantly before exaggerate). Go low, low enough that it feels ridiculous, and then go lower. Somehow, it releases my body to be more active in the turns. It's a drill, not a skiing style for the whole day, but in the few times that someone filmed me doing this at the start of the day, I realised I was not that low after all, so probably I was way too high and stiff before trying this.
I agree with kitenski that more speed would help, but that depends of course on how comfortable are you with higher speeds. Have you tried to leave railroad tracks on a very flat piste?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
up/down movement - what benefit do you think this is going to give you???
|
It's that thing about unweighting the skis with the 'up' movement so they are easier to turn and then sinking down following the turn. I know what I am supposed to do, I just don't seem to be able to do it, even when I think I am.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
Speed scares you doesn't it?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
horizon, On a flat piste I am happy to go in a fairly straight line, but I do seem to have a chickening out speed, that is somewhere between 'can I stop in the space that I can see is clear in front' and 'if I catch an edge at this speed I could really hurt myself'. I don't go as fast on steeper pistes or those with more difficult snow on them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Megamum, i thought unweighting was so 1970s?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Frosty the Snowman, beyond a certain point - yes. I am not a rollercoaster person as I think I have mentioned before.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Megamum, ok, stop worrying about up/down, concentrate on getting the weight on to the new outside ski early. The IOS sessions where they take you back to snowplough etc would help IMHO...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
concentrate on getting the weight on to the new outside ski early.
|
This was what we spent a lot of lessons working on. FWIW I think I started to get it and there is good chance that what I am doing now is better than when we started. I seem to have a bigger issue with the fishtail on the skis more in one direction than the other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Steal a time machine - make sure that it's one that you can set your age in too and travel back 25 years.
I don't suspect that any of your issues are uncommon in adult learners. I think you probably have to bear in mind that many people here and in the videos you watch will get as much skiing in in a season as you have in a lifetime so you shouldn't beat yourself up about instant results. What did the instructors say you should be doing/ what did they give you to take away to think about every turn. There's a lot of noise in ski instruction so it doesn't necessarily pay to have a limitless buffet of tips, more like a set menu of 2 or 3 things you can focus on until they are second nature.
As above I'd say find pistes where you're not worried about gradient or running straight down the fall line.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
As the phrase goes, MTFU. Most of the problem looks psychological - there is nothing really wrong with your technique, but you are skidding presumably to slow down, and not getting forward and getting your body pointing down the hill committing to the turn. Go skiing with some people who are slightly faster than you, and commit to keeping up with them.You can do it, just need to believe in yourself - you, with skiing like that, can ski blacks comfortably, but not if you don't give yourself a chance and believe that you are as good as you look.
Watch the video again, and identify 3 things you are doing right. Focus on how good you are at those things, and push yourself to overcome your fear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Megamum, Looks OK to me. You are in control, which is a good place to start. You do a tiny plough at the start of most turns, you stay very vertical and you don't really use your poles. Pole plants are easy to fix. The other two are probably down to lack of confidence. If you can stand perpendicular to the slope it is much easier to tip your skis onto the edge and get them to grip. If you stay vertical you end up steering your skis with your hips and shoulders, leading to the fish tailing. I am no expert. I only know this because I spent a lot of time and lessons time skiing exactly like that. More speed helps.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 12-05-13 22:28; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Megamum, I honestly see a lot of potential in that video and I have seen far worse. At Hemel today there where plenty of skiers who skied much faster than you but actually not many were better skiers. For a start you have great control.
You may not be where you want to be right now but that was no where near as bad as I imagined reading your comments. Lessons are great but practising what you learn in the lessons is where you really improve.
If you really want to improve then I would suggest (semi)regular sessions at Hemel supplemented with some lessons with InsideOut.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Thornyhill wrote: |
| Megamum, Looks OK to me. You are in control, which is a good place to start. |
+1
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wow, it looks like I wrote something 'not completely wrong and stupid'.
HIGH FIVE!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
identify 3 things you are doing right
|
There are actually 3 of them? 
Errr...............1. I largely have the skis a decent distance apart, 2. I'm in control, 3. I don't have the weight too badly balanced over the skis?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Megamum, 4) your upper body is fairly quiet, no massive swinging of the shoulders to make the skis turn
5) you are controlling your speed well
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Megamum, as others say don't beat yourself up about it! 10 hrs of lessons in one go then nothing again for a whole year won't do a huge amount to fix things, an hour or so lesson each week for ten weeks will, you've mentioned before that everything in your life comes before your skiing including your horse riding, so unless you make time regularly through the year... noticeable changes will be very difficult.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
I saw you ski in VT and I think you are continuing to make progress with your skiing. Lots to work on, of course, but that's the same for all of us at some level or other. I'll add some detailed comments tomorrow, but there have already been some useful things added to this thread (horizon's get low and get lower drill is something I use quite often, this morning for example) so there's a few fairly obvious things you can work on.
Nobody skis like the skier in their mind's eye, so you HAVE to stop beating yourself up about it otherwise you're going to take all the fun out of your skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| I'd be very pleased if someone could work out what it is and let me know. |
If you like it or not, 10 hours (no matter how "concentrated") is nothing. People do these for years (with 100 ski days a year), and they are still far from great skiers, so expecting you will be skiing normally after 10 hours course is... well unrealistic at least. As far as "what to do" goes, try picking more flat place. Place where you need to slip down half of hill on every turn is too steep and makes no fun, not to mention it's much much harder to learn anything on place where you are fighting for your life, then on more flat hill, where you can actually concentrate on this what you are doing and how you are doing it.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
Wow, it looks like I wrote something 'not completely wrong and stupid'.
|
Infinite monkey. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Megamum, As the others have said, you are being hard on yourself. There are lots of good things going in in the video clips which give you a skill set which you can develop further.
| Quote: |
| but I've watched all the video footage I've got and I still reckon I ski like a damn woodentop. I am fairly cross with myself for still looking as bad as I do. |
However, thinking in these terms could well make progress harder.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
A few more comments:
Your turn shape is much better than it was. I really noticed this in VT. You have moved on from zig-zag turns being your default, and they are much more rounded now except on the steeper terrain on that clip when you revert to driving the turn around quickly by twisting your whole body. Along with rounded turns you are also linking some of them better, with a significantly reduced traverse between turns on the easier slopes. However, the traverse comes back markedly on the steeper terrain.
For me the key thing which is stopping you from taking the next step with your skiing is the limited range of movement you employ, and the problems which follow from that. You commented earlier in the thread about "up unweighting" but on the terrain in the video the reason we would extend at the start of the turn is not to make the ski light and easy to twist, but to make sure we are well balanced on the new outside ski from the moment the turn starts in order that it can begin to work instantly and start turning you, not you turn it. It will also remove the plough/stem/fishtail you make as you start (some of) your turns. The reason this happens is that you push the new outside ski sideways slightly as you begin the turn, then you stand/balance on it. When you push it sideways slightly it creates that little stem shape, which then disappears when you are balanced more fully on that ski. If you were to use your movement at the start of the turn to balance on that ski without the slight sideways push the stem will disappear. Generally your fore/aft position isn't great, so you are slightly in the back seat, which is going to reduce the help you get from your skis in shaping your turns. This is going to be much more difficult to change if you have a largely static stance.
Using a bigger range of movement, with appropriate rate of movement, will give you much more control of how your skis work with the snow, will probably help with your fore/aft position and will reduce the need to drive the turns by twisting your skis with your whole body. Until you sort out that movement pattern your skiing is not going to advance. As part of the process of acquiring those skills, learning to pole plant properly will help with your timing and movement (I might have mentioned that before  ).
In terms of the best way to develop those skills, the choice of terrain in your video wasn't great. Much of it was too steep. Develop your skills on gentler terrain, then free ski on steeper stuff. Also, work on one thing at a time. Occasionally the advice from the cameraman was, I thought, a bit overwhelming with a long list of things you should be changing. It is impossible to acquire a shopping basket of skills in this way, and having an internal or external "running commentary" of all the things you should be doing as you progress down the slope achieves very little.
As mentioned, you are traversing between turns on the steeper terrain. Is this a conscious tactical choice or a unconscious response to terrain which is uncomfortably steep? If it's a tactical choice my advice would be "stop doing it". If it's a psychological response my advice would be choose something gentler for developing your skills, and then when you are on the steeper stuff "just ski". Trying to acquire new movements when you are focussed on coping with the steepness won't improve your skiing very effectively.
As kitenski said, there's no magic silver bullet that can instantly fix skiing. It is a process of change and improvement. Some go through that process quickly, others more slowly, some people not at all (and quite rightly are perfectly happy with their skiing). You are still in that process, so don't be disheartened that you're not making improvements as rapidly as you would like. Just enjoy the journey to becoming a better skier, rather than being frustrated you've not yet reached your destination. Ten hours of lessons is not insignificant, and I hope you feel you benefitted from Greg (and Dave's?) input and have things you can continue to work on. But the journey to becoming a good a skier as you can be is a long one: I had 90 hours of on-snow coaching this season, plus another 15 hours of off-snow coaching and video analysis, plus lots of time I spent purely on 'drills and skills' and I'm still a long, long way from being as good as that skier in my mind's eye.
PS: Top marks for sartorial choice. I also like a white ski outfit
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I am not an instructor, but I think Charlotte/Easiski's 'Signpost arms' exercise would help enormously and get you to pole plant. It would instantly get your arms, and your weight forward and stops upper body rotation. It helped enormously with my own skiing when we tried it on the glacier a few years ago. Perhaps you should book a holiday to Les Deux-Alpes next season.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
rob@rar, thank you for wonderful advice as usual. I also thought that I was getting some rounds into some of the turn shapes esp. on the easier terrain, so I'm pleased that you also saw that. 
The 'take home' advice offered by Greg was to believe that I could ski and that I did have a lot of potentially good skills to built on, we also spent a lot of time looking at getting onto what would be the outside ski of the turn earlier. Perhaps he had spotted that fishtail and realised that it would help.
| Quote: |
Is this a conscious tactical choice or a unconscious response to terrain which is uncomfortably steep?
|
I think a lot of times its a conscious tactical choice. For example, there was one really steep (and at that time in the morning) hard and icy section on the way over to Les Menuires when I actively chose to lose height by using a diagonal side slip through a traverse (I do a demon diagonal side slip!) as it was a tad grim in terms of being skiable. However, I do know that I don't have to do it and I am able to do really short turns (almost braccage (sp?) style) - I down a corridor of snow a few feet wide on a steep slope if I have to - i.e. that might be the only place with any snow left on it). In those video shots I was practising stuff and I think I traverse while I 'think.
In fact looking at that statement - yes, I'm sure I traverse while I think, maybe therein lies the problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Megamum wrote: |
The 'take home' advice offered by Greg was to believe that I could ski and that I did have a lot of potentially good skills to built on, . |
Solid advice.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FWIW, it took me year & years & lessons & lessons to get the level of incompetence I am now. Only in the last couple of years have I felt like I could "ski" (and many on here would dispute even that claim) and I'm still condition-dependent, my bottle goes at speed and I scrub it off, and given the choice of a red and a black will generally take the red if I'm honest.
Every year I have lessons at some point (And we discussed this and laughed at ourselves at the PSB for it) and every year the instructor says more or less the same thing (Job for life! )
BUT, I'm pretty sure that if I have this 2/4/6/whatever hours of lessons and each year if I take a nugget, or two if I'm lucky from those several hours, which makes a *bit* of subsequent difference to my skiing then it's a result.
This year it was two words "Early pressure" which I can be heard shouting at myself sometimes when I've slipped in to old habits, it's gone a bit pear shaped and it suddenly occurs to me why, and also that thing about opening the door with the pole & diving through it - you know what I mean. Oh and being more flexible - ok that's three things. I seldom do all three at the same time mind.
Yep we're all different I know, and much as I'd like to look like Bode (Rob! ), as long as you're enjoying yourself on your holibobs, does it matter ?
As Primoz says too about the easier terrain, I *love* to get on a consistent smooth blue and really try and carve two tramlines in the snow for a few turns, without having to worry about surviving on the run - I get as much out of that (in fact more) as "blasting" down something steeper (Not that I think I've ever blasted )
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
The image I have is of someone walking to work in the rain on a Monday morning.
At the top of the slope: stop; take in the view; feel the fresh air and the sun; and get ready to dance.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Megamum wrote: |
| I think a lot of times its a conscious tactical choice. |
The problem with deliberately traversing is that it makes the next turn much more difficult to manage. At the end of the traverse you're almost certainly going to be upright/fully extended, so initiating the next turn when you don't have a range of movement available to you is unnecessarily challenging. If you're on steep terrain and you need to adjust your normal technique try making short radius skiddy, scrappie turns, but making sure you link them all. Much easier to get in to a solid rhythm and to ski more effectively. Putting in a diagonal sideslip between z-shaped turns is the worst of all worlds.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
) I still find myself doing an imaginary pole plant