 Poster: A snowHead
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Rather than hijack a certain other thread I have had some realisations lately that I am surprised I haven't got to grips with over previous years. They seem so fundamental I am surprised that it has taken so long for them to embed themselves and just wondered if all people go through the same process.
In no particular order some of these are:
1. Getting weight over the outside ski early in the turn and stay on it - this fixed the stem in the turn, I am now making reliable parallel turns for the first time in my skiing so far
2. The realisation that there is plenty of time in which to do things - I don't need to rush things - like that skiing teaching video recently posted in fC's thread also showed. This fixes the turn shape. I still need work on it, but if I don't rush things I have more time to do what is right.
3. That skis have certain amount of length in front of the boot and you can use the edges of this area, they actually pull me around the bend - sounds daft, but I can actually feel them now
4. That carving isn't the be all and end all of skiing, it is just as useful to learn to do a steered turn and just as much of a challenge to perfect. I now actually understand what these are and what I need to do to achieve them. I want to learn these more than learning to carve at the moment because a steered turn seems to give me the control I crave. I actually also need the realisation of 1-3 in order to do this one.
5. I don't need to ski fast to ski well, but skiing well will ultimately mean I can ski fast if I want to.
5. That a pole plant is a jolly useful thing that helps me sort out when to do points 1,2,3 and 4.
6. That now I have control I can really work on separation - the next big goal along with perfecting these steered turns.
6. That rob@rar talks damn good sense - something I've always known, but now my skiing is actually letting me feel things work as they are explained. Something that I don't think my skiing has allowed me to make sense of with some other instructors.
What I can't work out is why it has taken about 10 weeks of skiing before I have developed the realisations above. It seems to me that I couldn't make progress and move off the level I was skiing at until the above facts had dawned on me, but why couldn't it have happened years ago? It's that last question which is the interesting one.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 26-11-13 23:57; edited 4 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, you would have got that embedded in a season under other circumstances. So I wouldn't beat yourself up over a perceived slowness of progression.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 26-11-13 21:57; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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From the title, I thought this was going to be about dodgy knees 
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Megamum, When I saw the thread title I was hoping you weren't going to say your knee joints! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Megamum, I suspect that you have to get some basic moves ingrained and unconscious before you can progress to the stage you are at.
Also, you have to stop thinking too much about stuff, so clearly you're making (some) progress there too.
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Megamum, I think your learning process is very similar to mine. I'm a late convert to skiing (48 years old and only 6 weeks under my belt!) I don't like to go too fast, I like steered turns rather than full-on carved edges. I like your view about there being plenty of time to do things in the turn, and I feel that fear of the resulting speed is a real challenge to me. I've only just realised what (I think!) angulation is - and how it can help me to control that speed - but now need to go practice it on the snow. Haven't a clue what separation means. I'm certain that this forum has helped me to get to my stage of understanding, and I hope that all the other  will help me to further understanding!
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Megamum, the first 6 points I would say are the fundamentals of skiing, so I'm pleased that you have articulated them so well and are beginning to understand and feel them in your skiing. As for the question you posed at the end, did the instructors you used when you began skiing reinforce those fundamentals and you just weren't ready to act on them, or did they explain things indifferent ways?
Thanks for the (second) point 6 
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geoff10, There is a glossary of skiing terms at the top of this forum - it contains a definition for separation - and is well worth a look if you haven't done so. From that list:
SEPARATION - Utilising the skiing joints (lower joints comprising ankles, knees and hip sockets) independently of the upper body.
rob@rar, I think the instructors I've had previously were all working towards the same end, but it is my three UK instructors in snowdomes who have made most sense with their comments, yourself, spyderman and Kitty - it's almost as though the snowdome because it is a safe predictable environment (like a classroom) gave me time to think about the specific instructions rather than keeping up with the rest of the class on a mountain. What the three of you did was not just to articulate that 'we are doing X', but you also remembered 'we are doing X because.....', but most importantly you all gave me just one or two things at a time that I could deal with and most importantly they were things that I could achieve and actually see an immediate result from doing at the skill level I was at the time. I can still remember really good specific tips that all three of you gave me some from years ago that I can still remember and still apply, but I can't recall one thing that any on-mountain instructor ever gave me as a tip that I can specifically recall and use today. I can recall the odd mountain based drill, but couldn't say what I learned from them as a take away skill.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, that's an interesting perspective. Indoor slopes do provide a good environment for developing ski skills, especially as they are available all year round for skiers who are particularly keen. They have limitations, obviously, but they are useful and not just for beginners and less experienced skiers.
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rob@rar, I think in the snowdomes there is also less temptation and opportunity for the 'follow me' style of teaching. It is very much 'this is what we are trying to achieve',' this is how to achieve it'; and the safe environment means I can try it and see if I can make it happen, but it's very much a case of concentrating on the application of the instructions under my own steam/working it out for myself rather than just trying to copy someone in front of me.
I'm sorry if I'm driving SH's nuts at the moment, but I've been wanting to crack this skiing lark for a long time and although I accept that I have been limited by time and cash I have been very envious of others that have progressed quicker (my kids notwithstanding!!). This year I've finally made progress and to steal a line from the Blues Brothers I think 'I've seed da light!!'
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, I have never skied in a dome, but I suspect that other than the year round availability it's the relative consistency of the environment (and the limited steepness of the slope) that help. That and the lack of temptation of flinging yourself down a black (or off-piste, or whatever) just to say "I can do a black run", which seems to be the be-all and end-all for many. Would you agree?
Megamum, To your question, I suspect it's also rather gnomically a question of "when the pupil is ready, the master appears". Sometimes as Rob, sometimes as your own insight on what is going on.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, please don't get me wrong, I think you bring a welcome and refreshing perspective on here, long may that continue and long may you continue to improve.
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| oldmancoyote wrote: |
| Would you agree? |
Yes. When teaching in the mountains I'll often use relatively gentle pistes when clients are trying to make significant changes to their skiing. When they have made a change it is then useful to be able to change to steeper/faster/icier/deeper/bumpier/etc slopes , something which indoor slopes are less useful for.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
Rather than hijack a certain other thread I have had some realisations lately that I am surprised I haven't got to grips with over previous years. They seem so fundamental I am surprised that it has taken so long for them to embed themselves and just wondered if all people go through the same process............abridged......
What I can't work out is why it has taken about 10 weeks of skiing before I have developed the realisations above. It seems to me that I couldn't make progress and move off the level I was skiing at until the above facts had dawned on me, but why couldn't it have happened years ago? It's that last question which is the interesting one. |
Guess what...I feel the same, but with only 5 wks skiing & in terms of months not years & only a fraction of the tuition!! But I have the same sentiment sometimes. So I know exactly what you mean, same situ, but on a different scale.
I think OldManCoyote's words are very poignant
| oldmancoyote wrote: |
Megamum, To your question, I suspect it's also rather gnomically a question of "when the pupil is ready, the master appears". Sometimes as Rob, sometimes as your own insight on what is going on. |
My Master for 10 mins on sat was my 12yr old, who helped me see how instructors complete a pivot turn. 
I also think my own signature line has also been staring me in the face too. I have been shouted at & didn't listen 
Now, about this video footage 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Megamum, delighted to see! I think it does take time, and when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. I am convinced that most of the time, we who teach and coach are largely helping the student to see what they already know. And often to let go of bad habits (like rushing the turn, moving weight, etc.). I admit to being a bit concerned by your point 1, depending on what you mean by it, and I hope by 5 you mean more of a "touch" than a heavy "plant," but they are, in general, solid fundamentals, and if they are helping you improve, more power to you!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Megamum wrote: |
What I can't work out is why it has taken about 10 weeks of skiing before I have developed the realisations above. It seems to me that I couldn't make progress and move off the level I was skiing at until the above facts had dawned on me, but why couldn't it have happened years ago? It's that last question which is the interesting one. |
I've come to realise that you can give the same instructions forever, but until the student actually feels what you are explaining to them through their skiing, they wont believe it. Once they feel it working, they believe it, they begin to understand the process and they remember how to do it. With regards to the 10 weeks of skiing- yes that is a long time, but some people struggle at certain stages and the great thing is you persevered and got there in the end!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I had some lessons last year, for the first time in a LONG time bar one one-day session with I/O. I think, and this applies to all sorts of non-skiing related activities as well, from education (my MBA course is a good example) to other 'technical' disciplines: the use of activity-specific terminology is actively unproductive for the novice instructee. Whether that person has experience of what is being taught or not, if that person is new to instruction or has come back to instruction after time away from formal teaching, the tutor needs to avoid the repetition of terminology which is alien to the pupil.
I can't help but feel that talking about 'separation' for instance is less useful than saying 'your goal is to be controlling your legs, knees, ankles and feet such that your upper body is controlled separately, I.e. Movement in one does not necessarily result in the same movement of the other'.
Semantics, I think! have a lot to answer for!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ssh, with point 1. rob@rar, managed to get me first onto the outside ski of the turn and then to become aware of its inside edge. Once I realised the process needed to get that to engage earlier in the turn I then started to realise that the front of that edge was also engaging and the whole kit and caboodle actually pulled me through the turn. I also realised that I could do it slowly and the turn still happened and I didn't end up zooming down the slope at an unwelcome speed. When it all started to happen suddenly the stem (which I had been very cross at realising that I still had) miraculously vanished.
Through having the input of an instructor I hadn't worked on erradicating the stem, but by doing other things correctly under their tutition it had fixed it along the way  Left to my own devices I would not have solved things half as quickly as I would have focussed on losing the stem rather than doing other things right and might never have got there - this is an advantage of having an instructors perspective rather my own. Sometimes we think we know what needs fixing and end up focussing on the wrong thing when someone that knows what they are looking for can recognise other solutions. Clearly you can't teach yourself which is why I have always fitted in lessons along the way when I can.
Point 5. It def. isn't a heavy plant, but these days I think I remember the touch more often than not when I am not using the poles otherwise as a drill aid prop.
thepistepanther, It's like a self fulfilling prophecy when it happens, we suddenly discover that something works so we try it again. I think a lot of problems in the early weeks was fear. Fear stopped me from experimenting with what I was asked to do. In the finish I think pure mileage cured that. Now I can ski most things marked red, providing they aren't covered with genuine mogels and haven't been deliberately left unpisted (there is one in Les Arcs I think). Less fear means I am happy to try something a bit different (and I will get my head around backwards one day), and this has meant opening my mind to the instructions and trying them out.
Now this bit will sound really daft, but the skis actually feel like something I can move that are part of me. When I watch an instructor they move around on a ski - whether travelling along it or not as though it is part of their foot - it doesn't matter where they are, if I watch an instructor on skis they hardly seem aware that they are wearing them. These days I am starting to also get this feeling. I now don't stop and think how do I move around on this long object I move my foot and most times instinctively balance the ski as part of the movement, I can move around on a flat surface, can stop on a slope and step back up it to help someone retreive lost gear without thinking about it, the ski is actually becoming something that I move as part of my foot rather than a worry about what to do with it. It's not quite fully instinctive, but it is def. ceasing to be a conscious effort and this is also reflected in how I start to view the skiing.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Through having the input of an instructor I hadn't worked on erradicating the stem, but by doing other things correctly under their tutition it had fixed it along the way Left to my own devices I would not have solved things half as quickly as I would have focussed on losing the stem rather than doing other things right and might never have got there - this is an advantage of having an instructors perspective rather my own. |
IMO the best way to fix a fault is not to focus on "stopping doing it" but to replace it with a more efficient movement. Generally we don't ski our faults deliberately, they just develop over time and happen subconsciously. It's therefore difficult to stop making that movement. Much easier to focus on making a positive movement (which fixes the fault).
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rob@rar, it's def. 'don't think about pink elephants' syndrome!!
Re: video footage - it will have to wait until I'm next in a dome with someone with a camera - might not happen for a while as next time I'm likely on my tod. However, only a few months 'til hols and bound to get some there. Also there might be some reports in from the HH Christmas mob before then.
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Megamum, Well done --- congrats on both your progress and the well-written post
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, yes as an instructor the ski really does become apart of you but that is down to the months at a time that we spend on our skis along with us not particularly thinking of our own movements most of the time but looking at and thinking about the people we teach.
Now that you are reducing your fear levels, you should find that you can now digest any instruction much easier than before. People who have fear find it very difficult to follow through with a new action/instruction no matter how much they want to do it, usually at some point in the drill the fear kicks in and grinds it to a swift hault.
Its great that the ski is finally feeling like its a part of you, this gives you a whole new level of control, confidence and enjoyment.
Keep it up!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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franzClammer wrote:
ALQ wrote:
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Megamum, We'll be the judge of your alleged 'progression'....Video evidence plz!!!
...and be wary of wet bum syndrome (as in FC's recent vids)
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I'd been thinking about Race Club
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It sounds like someone needs an anatomy lesson...............
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Megamum wrote: |
, but now my skiing is actually letting me feel things work as they are explained. Something that I don't think my skiing has allowed me to make sense of with some other instructors.
What I can't work out is why it has taken about 10 weeks of skiing before I have developed the realisations above. |
Brilliant - the former, if you feel what is happening then you've got the essential foundation for self-development (alongside whatever other learning you may do.
But the answer to the latter might lie in the former - you've finally found someone that , as you say has clicked with the way you learn, and you've successfully put together your own framework of what is important to you which seems entirely sensible
And without inflating their egos further I think it's a nice endorsement of Rob n Scott's approach in that consistent access to the same instructor over time (even if only reading on tinternet) eliminates a lot of the variable messaging received from a wider pool of instructors which can mean that core issues are never fully tackled.
10 weeks is nothing, lots of people ski their whole lives without ever really "getting" skiing - at least from the numbers of people I see on the slopes fighting their equipment rather than using it elegantly.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
Now this bit will sound really daft, but the skis actually feel like something I can move that are part of me. |
Not daft at all - not something that is talked or written about enough but that's exactly what it should feel like, in the same way no-one asks how do I work these trainers or football boots.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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franzClammer,
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This type of drill may help us both as a progression to the "tap, stand, turn drill.
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Oh, look, a ski instructor telling you to "Stand on your ski!"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, I'm still doing drills to get onto my outside ski early after 50 odd weeks of skiing!!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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kitenski, I've got every intention of continuing with them. It seems to fix all sorts of things and I am by no means anywere near proficient yet, but at least I have worked out what I trying to achieve, and why and can sometimes get it right.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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10 weeks is nothing, lots of people ski their whole lives without ever really "getting" skiing - at least from the numbers of people I see on the slopes fighting their equipment rather than using it elegantly.
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This.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
The realisation that there is plenty of time in which to do things - I don't need to rush things.... I still need work on it, but if I don't rush things I have more time to do what is right.
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IME from sailing, people tend to rush things when they are not confident in their abilities and often have a subconscious desire to get out of the way of (what they perceive as) the more competent people sharing the space. It takes a degree of bloody-mindedness and belief in your capabilities to go at your own speed, to believe you deserve to be there and it's up to other people too to be aware of what you're doing. And I think it is tied up with fear too, as you mention - not the "oh god I'm going to die" sort of fear but the slightly embarassed "I shouldn't really be here" sort of fear. I am in no position to talk when it comes to skiing as I know full well that I shouldn't rush my turns but I still do it, but there are often parallels between skiing and sailing. I think with many activities, you can tell the really competent people because, whatever the speed at which they complete their "passage", they don't rush their manoeuvres.
Of course that could all be total codswallop so feel free to ignore as appropriate!
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| Megamum wrote: |
ssh, with point 1. rob@rar, managed to get me first onto the outside ski of the turn and then to become aware of its inside edge. Once I realised the process needed to get that to engage earlier in the turn I then started to realise that the front of that edge was also engaging and the whole kit and caboodle actually pulled me through the turn. I also realised that I could do it slowly and the turn still happened and I didn't end up zooming down the slope at an unwelcome speed. When it all started to happen suddenly the stem (which I had been very cross at realising that I still had) miraculously vanished.
Through having the input of an instructor I hadn't worked on erradicating the stem, but by doing other things correctly under their tutition it had fixed it along the way Left to my own devices I would not have solved things half as quickly as I would have focussed on losing the stem rather than doing other things right and might never have got there - this is an advantage of having an instructors perspective rather my own. Sometimes we think we know what needs fixing and end up focussing on the wrong thing when someone that knows what they are looking for can recognise other solutions. Clearly you can't teach yourself which is why I have always fitted in lessons along the way when I can.
Point 5. It def. isn't a heavy plant, but these days I think I remember the touch more often than not when I am not using the poles otherwise as a drill aid prop. |
Excellent...
For those reading, it's important to note that "getting weight over the outside ski" isn't done by moving the body over it! This is a very common habit, but it gets us out of an efficient position. Allowing the pressure to move onto that ski while maintaining our body alignment is the process that many find challenging--but which is exceptionally rewarding once learned. Knowing rob@rar, I'm sure this is what you learned, but when we use words in to describe movements and sensations, we can sometimes leave an impression that won't serve others as well as we might like. (Hope that makes sense; it's taken me years to realize what seems obvious to me when I write something is often misunderstood by the reader!)
Again, this is wonderful to hear! I hope that some time I will have the blessing of skiing with you in the future and seeing all that you have learned!
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| Megamum wrote: |
3. That skis have certain amount of length in front of the boot and you can use the edges of this area, they actually pull me around the bend - sounds daft, but I can actually feel them now
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funny you mention that. Last season I was watching a young American JHMR local lady giving her friend advice re moguls. The main point she made was about driving the front of the skis. "Although you are doing it as well as the other turn initiation techniques, focus more on the front of your ski".
For the same reason you give, it pulls you round but the emphasis on driving the front means a more dynamic style is needed which in turn needs a more dynamic attitude.
This attitude did not mean attacking everything, but meant "associating" with the actual skiing rather than just going through the motions, that some do.
im no instructor ... you'll now when it clicks, your smile will get wider !
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 28-11-13 19:19; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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limegreen1, the analogy I've come up with is it's like driving a front wheel drive car rather than a rear wheel drive one. The front wheels not only pull you along they 'steer' you too. I am a keen driver and that is how it feels to me in comparison with driving!! The thing I've found is that thinking about making the fronts engage seems to also have the effect of getting me out of the back seat. I don't think it's ever been a huge problem, but it is occasionally commented on. Attempting to drive the fronts a bit more probably just makes me think about having the weight that bit more forwards to do so and that is probably enough to help just keep me out of the back seat a little.
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FAQ
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