Chaps, I have posted this on a car forum, but thought it may get some attention here, as folk will have wintered in snowy places with a car.
It seems increasingly likely that I will be doing part of this winter as a ski season out in the Alps. While this is not exactly Arctic territory, it will, on occasion, snow a lot. As the Defender will be going with me, I need some advice on how to make a diesel 4x4 work properly in minus 20 degree, heavy snow conditions. It will most likely be parked outdoors, not in a nice, warm garage.
It's a modified TD5, so has a heated screen and chunky BF Goodrich Mud Terrain tyres. But the heater is woeful, and I would like it to start in the mornings (diesel is susceptible to cold, correct?)
As I have never lived in snowy climes, some of these questions will be very, very schoolboy. Any other suggestions for snow motoring greatly received.
- will the mud tyres work in snow, and if not, can I fit snow chains to such tyres when necessary?
- will blanking off part of the radiator help with the heating situation (the Defender is over-cooled as standard it seems: heater never seems to get that hot)
- it already has a high-capacity battery. Any other precautions I can take for making sure it will crank over in very cold weather?
- already know about covering door locks etc to avoid snow ingress and freezing, and putting vaseline on door seals to prevent the door freezing shut - anything else?
- what should I carry in the back for emergencies/breakdowns? I was thinking snow shovel, sleeping bag, small bag of thermal clothes, matches etc.
I won't be sleeping in it - I just would like it reliable for everyday use, and safe/usefully provisioned if I do get stranded for a night on the mountain for any reason.
I know I should probably just flog it and buy a proper, modern Range Rover or Land Cruiser or something similar with terrain response, proper heating, heated seats/steering wheel etc - but I like my Defender (see below), and don't want to flog it just due to having to spend a few months in the Alps in mid winter.
Any help or advice gratefully received!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Harry Flashman wrote:
..........due to having to spend a few months in the Alps in mid winter.
I can't help with the 'winterising' advice but I suspect you'll get some abuse for suggesting it's a chore to 'spend a few months in the Alps'.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Additive to the disel to stop it freezing when it gets below -15....whch is the temp the disel in the alps is guaranteed to
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 2-09-13 13:15; edited 1 time in total
Harry Flashman, Not really answering your questions but you don't need a 4x4 to drive in the Alps, a reasonably modern FWD petrol car with snow tyres is fine. The only times I drove in deep snow last winter was if I needed to set off before the roads had been cleared.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
you don't need a 4x4 to drive in the Alps
100% agreed (I have never got stuck, in 10 winters now, in very ordinary cars with snow tyres and occasionally chains) but unless you are very 'ard you do need a vehicle with an efficient heating system. Not just to keep you warm, but also to deal with condensation/misting which can be quite bad on wet-but-not-very-cold mornings.
To your list of emergency stuff I would add drinking water (in not-full bottles, so they don't burst when they freeze), squirrelshit biscuits, chocolate and maybe a wee drop of something to warm the cockles.
Harry Flashman, Mud tyres are not great on snow, -20 is not the end of the world for diesel as long as is winter diesel, getting the doors to open more likely a challenge as you have already mentioned, my locks are always freezing solid.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Its a Land Rover, it dont need winterised!
But +1 on the muds - good enough in deep snow but a right laugh on every other winter surface. Get ATs on and you'll be as unstoppable as you'll ever need to be. (it aint snow the muds cant handle, its ice and wet, cold snowmelt roads)
Only other essential thing might be a blanky for the intake, you see them on Landies in this country over winter, never mind in the alps. Couple of recovery straps always handy, plus a shovel. I have waffle boards but they've never left the garage
After all it is free
After all it is free
^ by the way, crackin nice Landy
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
The winter before last, in Chamonix, repeated -20c at night caused havoc with diesels. All garages had winter diesel, but some more winter than others, the "normal" winter diesel started failing at -14/15c. If you do get waxed, it can be a nightmare, although most will thaw out without the need for new filters etc.
both of which have been used in anger and proved invaluable.
I put Conti Winter tyres on and it is unstoppable, but I have never driven it on Muds on snow.
But to be honest, I d be inclined to find a local Golf 4Motion or similar - and get a petrol, don't worry about freezing and heats up waaay faster than a diesel. The drive down alone in that defender would do my head in!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Never had a problem with diesel in my wife's car even down to less than minus 20. It just starts when you turn the key.
From what I see the standard car for use in the mountains are things like Peugeot 106s and Fiat Pandas. Only the Brits seem to use huge four wheel drive trucks.
As to what to take with you in the car: snow chains, snow shovel, tow rope (for helping others) and warm clothes, gloves and boots. Harry Flashman, I would love to know what you plan doing with the matches.
However, I do disagree with pam w, Do not use alcohol to warm the cockles it will actually hasten hypothermia, but I suppose you could pour it into a container then light it with the matches and hence get a tiny bit warmer..
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
make sure you give the diesel heater a chance to do its thing in the morning, dont just turn it over straight to start, wait for the little diesel heater light to cut out (I assume those defenders have one).
We regularly (maybe not all that frequently) get down to -25 overnight, and never had an issue with freezing diesel (not a Landy).
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Know someone who filled a brand new VW Sharan up with diesel in Vienna and then drove to Salzburg during the very cold month of Feb 2012. After a week standing still (ski in / out accomodation) it wouldn't start . The Austrian AA man said they put a greater amount of frost protection additive in the diesel in mountainous areas.
Put proper winter tyres on it - to deal with ice & cold wet roads. Traction is not really the problem, braking / road holding is.
Put additive in to stop the diesel waxing.
Put ample amounts of windscreen-washer de-icer in it.
Don't leave it standing for days - take it out for a run as this will do the battery a world of good and reduce the chance of the diesel waxing.
I do disagree with pam w, Do not use alcohol to warm the cockles it will actually hasten hypothermia
You're right, of course. And I didn't say alcohol. What a thought!!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Harry Flashman, I did the 04/05 season as a driver with a Defender. Can't tell what age yours is so some of these comments might not be relevant. Has it got ABS or a block heater? Those are the two things we desperately missed in ours even though it was brand new.
Basically, it was a great car going uphill but a nightmare downhill on black ice without ABS - very twitchy. I absolutely would not use mud tyres - you need something with sipes in it and properly snow rated or it will just lock up. You'll never need chains if you've got snow-rated tyres. The heaters are crap so you'll be scraping ice off the inside of all the windows every day for sure and yes the doors stick so Vaseline is a good idea.
Ours would NEVER start if it was below -10c. In the end we had to resort to parking it in a garage every night in January. It wasn't the diesel, because all our minibuses started no problem. Maybe the glow plugs are crap, too? Hence why I'd suggest getting a block heater fitted if you're going to leave it outside all the time.
One last point - I've recently discovered silicon wiper blades. I would definitely fit these (in an aero blade type if they have your size) as they do not freeze to the windscreen. So no more having to remember to lift them up every night. Keep your current blades as spares in the boot in case they get nicked/fall off.
Add a brush to your list of spares to get snow off the roof. I'm assuming you've already got gloves/torch/bulbs/triangle/extinguisher/hi-vis vests etc.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thanks everyone - great help.
Good question - I had no idea what on earth I'd use the matches for either. Probably no real use for them.
To be honest, biggest concerns are the heater and the tyres. My tyres are actually pretty good on wet roads - they are siped, as are the KM2 version of the Goodrich Mud Terrain; but in reality, changing to an all terrain or winter tyre with a softer compund is probably a good idea. My Defender is a 2004 TD5, so not sure if it has ABS - I don't think so. It has a heated windscreen though, which is good. Excellent advice about winter diesel - I had no idea that you could have additives in it.
I can't take any of my other cars, as they are a Morgan and a Caterham, so even less suited to the task of Alpine driving. Selling the Landy and buying something a bit more modern could work - but this car is heavily customised and a favourite toy, so I would rather not get rid...just modify if necessary (and not exorbitant to do so)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ditch the mud terrains for winter tyres.
Chains will still fit.
Get a Radiator Muff, fits to the front grill and rolls up when you don't need it.
If you have an intake on the top of the front wing, get a snow cowl.
Webasto make a diesel heater, similar to that used on coaches, very effective to keep you toasty.
In Canada they use engine heaters which plug in overnight to stop the engine from getting too cold, probably a bit extreme for Europe though.
Use winter diesel and keep the tank topped up to avoid condensation.
Decent high concentration screen wash.
Excellent advice about winter diesel - I had no idea that you could have additives in it
the diesel you buy near the mountains should be good down to -15 and maybe a bit below. The additive takes it lower - but it's not often very cold for very long so you shouldn't need huge amounts. It is true that there were major problems with diesel when it got v cold, a while ago - vehicles seem to vary a lot in their response, maybe because of position of tank, and obviously where they are parked. My diesel car is in a garage in the winter, but a diesel van we rented to take a load of furniture down to the Alps refused to start after a cold night in the open until it had sat with the bonnet up and sunshine on the engine for about an hour - and that was mid-December and nowhere near minus 15. It probably had fuel in from around Dijon - I had no idea about winter diesel!
You will presumably be getting some kind of ski rack? Some more locks to get iced up.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
not sure if it has ABS? - go fast, slam on, turn
If you've a good feel for your gearing and revs, then ABS need not be a huge barrier, just think ahead and brake the engine smoothly. Winter driving is 1 tyres, 2 controlling your revs, 3 nothing else.
Siped muds will certainly be better than nothing - was wondering even if you could've siped what i thought were your solid muds. I would still say the confidence a good AT tyre gives you will be very welcome (try General AT, cheaper than BFG and have been unstoppable for me over numerous winters. I favour AT over pure snow tyres as AT can go year round and are very durable. In a Landy you dont care about any ride or noise difference!
No need to ditch it - you'll do fine in it with a bit of prep. Starting it / giving it a run every day as suggested above is a top shout - that should be done to cars in winter in this country. Probably even better to just idle it, leaving the built up snow on the car to insulate
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 2-09-13 14:24; edited 1 time in total
Subaru foresters are amazing in the snow and ice (with the right tyres) I only had to use chains once last season and I live a little way out of the village. We had a Defender 110 in Valais a couple of years ago and didn't put snow tyres on it and it was excellent, especially in low ratio. The only problem I had with it was when I went down to Sion as most of the towns' car parks are underground and the defender is very high...so nearly took out the strip lights in the Coop, also its quite long, but yours is a short wheel base so would be better, but all in all I would hang onto to the Landy.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Why worry, you will have broken down by Ashford. And Paris. And Lyon.
Sell it, buy a French estate car with snow tyres.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Filthyphil30k,
Quote:
Why worry, you will have broken down by Ashford. And Paris. And Lyon.
My seasonnaire 'boss' bought an old Disco to drive to the Alps. Had to stop 6 times on the way there for it to stop overheating (thermostat). Drove the whole way there in ski gear because the heater didn't work. Had to jump start it all through January...
Quote:
Sell it, buy a Subaru estate car with snow tyres.
Fixed it for you.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Spyderman wrote:
Webasto make a diesel heater, similar to that used on coaches, very effective to keep you toasty.
Is that a heater which uses diesel to heat up the cab (as shown below) or a heater than heats the diesel lines?
one point on diesel is to keep the tank well filled too, every little helps
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
We took a disco last year, first time we`ve used a diesel in the Alps, my husband was keen to get to the area with a low fuel tank then fill up in the Alps. We had no problems but then whilst it snowed it did not get extremely cold. One year in Les Contamines it got down to just below minus 20 (we had a petrol car) and one of of the motor homes near us froze. It was explained to us that he had not filled up with local diesel!
Our disco had ordinary run around town tyres on and got up from Bourg St Maurice to La Rosiere in a blizzard with no problems. We passed plenty of local front wheel drive cars putting chains on. We had ours ready in case of need but really had no probems. It also got up and down a really bad ramp/hill at our accommodation, again with out any real effort what so ever.
To all the above extremely good advice about what to carry in the car, I would add a couple of pairs of old gloves. If you do need to stop to put chains on these are invaluable. Make sure you have practised putting chains on (wearing the gloves) before you go
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Filthyphil30k wrote:
Why worry, you will have broken down by Ashford. And Paris. And Lyon.
Sell it, buy a French estate car with snow tyres.
Ha! Good point.
It's actually pretty reliable *crosses fingers* - was completely rebuilt and modified by Twisted/JE Engineering in December 2011...after the chassis rotted because a gamekeeper left it in a muddy field for 2 years. It is effectively a brand new uprated vehicle - apart from the bloody heater, which is still awful.
Defenders really are rubbish. The only offroader to rot to pieces because you get mud on it. I love it though, despite the fact that almost anything else on the road is more fit for purpose than a Landy.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We took a disco last year, first time we`ve used a diesel in the Alps, my husband was keen to get to the area with a low fuel tank then fill up in the Alps. We had no problems but then whilst it snowed it did not get extremely cold. One year in Les Contamines it got down to just below minus 20 (we had a petrol car) and one of of the motor homes near us froze. It was explained to us that he had not filled up with local diesel!
Our disco had ordinary run around town tyres on and got up from Bourg St Maurice to La Rosiere in a blizzard with no problems. We passed plenty of local front wheel drive cars putting chains on. We had ours ready in case of need but really had no probems. It also got up and down a really bad ramp/hill at our accommodation, again with out any real effort what so ever.
To all the above extremely good advice about what to carry in the car, I would add a couple of pairs of old gloves. If you do need to stop to put chains on these are invaluable. Make sure you have practised putting chains on (wearing the gloves) before you go
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I would agree with the earlier comments about tyres. You would be a great deal better off (and infinitely safer) with proper winter tyres. I'm sure you could struggle by quite happily with the Goodrichs, but winter tyres are far, far better.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Tyres are probably the thing I was most concerned about. Advice for an all-rounder to replace the Mud Terrains has been the General Grabber AT2 which is meant to be pretty decent in packed snow/ice conditions (which will be more relevant than tyres capable of deep snow), so shall grab a set of these.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
foxtrotzulu, true for mud tyres but not AT, i've run AT (not goodrich) on my jeep for years, and have pulled out a police range rover from a snowy ditch amongst a number of various recoveries (admittedly the fuzz in these parts dont run winter tyres at all, they merely renew their all-seasons earlier before the thread goes down). I did follow a plough into a field one night when he lost the road (with me diligently following him in a whiteout) - he had to sort his own recovery on that one!
My wifes car has proper winters in the winter but the jeep is vastly superior in the snow - the difference might just be ground clearence, but take away that difference and they are every bit as good as winters - the fact that you can leave them on all year round without compromise tips it for me (and they do seem to last longer than any other tyre I've had)
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Grabber AT2s are no longer - EU noise nazis retired them, but new Grabber AT awesome in general winter conditions, fine in deep stuff too - have had snow bow waves up over the bonnet going up the hill road! BFG AT will have deeper threads, I would go for best deal. I had AT2 before these and the new ones are as good - easily, and are lasting longer
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'm driving a Nissan Patrol GR here in Iceland and basically just slap on 33" siped, studded AT tyres for winter. Apart from the stuff that always lives in the car I sling sleeping bags and warm clothes, food and water into the car for long journeys. Don't skimp on the shovel get something nice and sturdy. Definitely don't use the one from your avi kit as you want it to remain sharp and hitting anything ruins the blade. Also get a wacking gert scraper/brush for regularly unburying the car. Some sand or grit might be useful for getting moving if it's really icy. I've never had a problem with fuel freezing but it doesn't routinely get that cold and the diesel here is almost certainly treated for winter.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 2-09-13 15:56; edited 1 time in total
I'm not sure i d even bother with a wagon, Just get your g/friend to get on Cham Xprss at 30 euro odd for 1 hour and meet you in the pub... You are there to ski, not do Vehicle Maintenance...
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Harry Flashman,
Not sure about France but the regulations here (Austria) state that you must have (amongst other things) reflective clothing (e.g. vest). Might be worth buying a reflective jacket and wearing it with gloves should you ever need to put chains on (very unlikely if you have 4WD and winter tyres).
I've seen Landrovers perform in the snow and when compared to normal UK vehicles (with summer tyres) they are very impressive when challenging steep snow covered hills. However, stopping distances tend to be extremely long (esp on ice) and so the biggest risk is not that you will not get up the hill but that you can't stop coming down it. An older vehicle without ABS will probably be even worse. Always leave plenty of distance between you and the car infront.
Had a 110 in the Alpes for a couple of years so here's my pointers;
- The heater will always be shite
- there will never be enough room for your right elbow
- door locks can and do freeze so have some of that anti freeze spray stuff or failing that keep a bungee to hold the door shut
- get a new battery, they really drain the battery and any slightly dodgy battery will die
- change the mud tyres for snow tyres.
- chains.. ha, ha, ha, good luck! you need to carry them but you'll likely never need them (we were often out before the ploughs on minor roads and pushing through snow up to the bumper and never did) and if you do you'll never get them on (it became a summer BBQ game to see who could get mine on the spare wheel.)
- diesel - stuff you buy in the mountains should be ok, if not up to 10% petrol works wonders.
- screenwash - 100% of good (minus 40) concentrated un diluted.
As an aside I've still got a ski rack that fits on the external wheel if you're interested.
hth
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
meh, nice
After all it is free
After all it is free
pam w wrote:
Quote:
you don't need a 4x4 to drive in the Alps
100% agreed (I have never got stuck, in 10 winters now, in very ordinary cars with snow tyres and occasionally chains) but unless you are very 'ard you do need a vehicle with an efficient heating system. Not just to keep you warm, but also to deal with condensation/misting which can be quite bad on wet-but-not-very-cold mornings.
To your list of emergency stuff I would add drinking water (in not-full bottles, so they don't burst when they freeze), squirrelshit biscuits, chocolate and maybe a wee drop of something to warm the cockles.
'squirrelshit buscuits' ???????????? not come across that make before, hedgehog crisps and squashed flys......
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
mishmash wrote:
I'm not sure i d even bother with a wagon, Just get your g/friend to get on Cham Xprss at 30 euro odd for 1 hour and meet you in the pub... You are there to ski, not do Vehicle Maintenance...
It's for me! I want a vehicle to get around in. Apart from skiing I'm pretty into photography, so will be heading up into the mountains to take photos etc as well. Not to mention driving all over France/Switzerland to meet various friends on their ski holidays...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
marcellus wrote:
Had a 110 in the Alpes for a couple of years so here's my pointers;
- The heater will always be shite
- there will never be enough room for your right elbow
- door locks can and do freeze so have some of that anti freeze spray stuff or failing that keep a bungee to hold the door shut
- get a new battery, they really drain the battery and any slightly dodgy battery will die
- change the mud tyres for snow tyres.
- chains.. ha, ha, ha, good luck! you need to carry them but you'll likely never need them (we were often out before the ploughs on minor roads and pushing through snow up to the bumper and never did) and if you do you'll never get them on (it became a summer BBQ game to see who could get mine on the spare wheel.)
- diesel - stuff you buy in the mountains should be ok, if not up to 10% petrol works wonders.
- screenwash - 100% of good (minus 40) concentrated un diluted.
As an aside I've still got a ski rack that fits on the external wheel if you're interested.
hth
Marcellus, thanks!
Very interested in that ski rack if you still have it, and this all works out. I won't know for a month or so - but perhaps I could get in touch if I do?
I also think I shall need to speak to you about accommodation...
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
My seasonnaire 'boss' bought an old Disco to drive to the Alps. Had to stop 6 times on the way there for it to stop overheating (thermostat). Drove the whole way there in ski gear because the heater didn't work. Had to jump start it all through January...
