 Poster: A snowHead
|
13-year-old Taft Conlin died in an avalanche on the Prima Cornice trail at Vail on 22 January 2012. His parents are now contesting ski patrol evidence that avalanche protection work was done before the incident.
The Denver Post has obtained legal depositions revealing that his parents' lawyers are claiming punitive damages, alleging "there is "substantial evidence" that Vail's employees have given "false testimony" ".
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_24278230/parents-skier-who-died-slide-claim-patrol-gave
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Sad event but anyone who knows Vail and skis it regularly seems to say 100% this is grieving parents trying to exact retribution for an incident where their son and his party were almost certainly largely at fault.
The upper gate was closed apparently so it's almost incidental unless "lack" of control work presented a real hazard for individuals entering the open gate and skiing downhill rather than stepping up.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
With their litigious culture over there they should have every mountain fully groomed, which is what's probably going to happen eventually.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| Quote: |
| “If you want to close a portion of a trail, you have to clearly mark it as closed,” Heckbert said. “It’s called drawing a line in the snow. If they don’t want people hiking up, they needed to put up a sign saying no hiking up.” |
And this folks is the reason that you get coffee cups printed with warnings that the contents may be hot and packets of nuts emblazoned with "WARNING MAY CONTAIN NUTS".
Next time you ski in the US and you find it frustrating that openings are slow on a powder day be sure to thank Mr Heckbert for directing Patrol resources at priority matters such as ensuring local hotshots can be educated in the flaming obvious.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
this is a difficult one..and firstly thoughts with the family..
so if you closed a lift trying to prevent someone going into a dangerous area and they trekked up to the region where the lift went to and they then skied and and caused an avalanche in an area they were not supposed to be in.... how do you police that.. did the 'owners' of the slopes put up warning signs and were they in a a location that anyone and everyone would see
hopefully i have the jist of what this is about..
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Its America, sad as the situation is it always goes like this, someone dies, someone blames someone else, lawyers get richer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| davkt wrote: |
| Its America.... |
The 100% difference between USA and Europe is that in the US the corporation owns all the rights to the hill and sells you access on that basis. In Europe, you do what you want, with no comeback. The "people" own the mountain (ok, -ish, these are broad principles).
The OPs point here is that the Ski Corporation lied to the federal investigators.
That seems valid as an issue worthy of investigation, especially as the ski patrol are also the incident investigator/experts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| mishmash wrote: |
| davkt wrote: |
| Its America.... |
The 100% difference between USA and Europe is that in the US the corporation owns all the rights to the hill and sells you access on that basis. In Europe, you do what you want, with no comeback. The "people" own the mountain (ok, -ish, these are broad principles).
The OPs point here is that the Ski Corporation lied to the federal investigators.
That seems valid as an issue worthy of investigation, especially as the ski patrol are also the incident investigator/experts. |
Well the lawyers of the victims parents say the Corp lied. We don't know know if they did or didn't yet but we can be sure it will take a load of very expensive lawyer time to find out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
This is the "hot' bit : " Vail Resorts says they performed avalanche mitigation efforts that morning, prior to the slide that killed Conlin, including two ski patrollers who say they kicked snow off the top of the run. However, Heckbert says the evidence disputes that.
The latest motion alleges that Vail ski patrollers did nothing to mitigate avalanche danger on Prima Cornice and altered documents."
from http://www.vaildaily.com/news/8467450-113/vail-avalanche-ski-conlin
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| davkt wrote: |
| mishmash wrote: |
| davkt wrote: |
| Its America.... |
The 100% difference between USA and Europe is that in the US the corporation owns all the rights to the hill and sells you access on that basis. In Europe, you do what you want, with no comeback. The "people" own the mountain (ok, -ish, these are broad principles).
The OPs point here is that the Ski Corporation lied to the federal investigators.
That seems valid as an issue worthy of investigation, especially as the ski patrol are also the incident investigator/experts. |
Well the lawyers of the victims parents say the Corp lied. We don't know know if they did or didn't yet but we can be sure it will take a load of very expensive lawyer time to find out. |
Cross post .. But actually the very expensive lawyers are probably no cost/very expensive depending on whether they win or not . Which is part of the the problem.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| davkt wrote: |
Well the lawyers of the victims parents say the Corp lied. We don't know know if they did or didn't yet but we can be sure it will take a load of very expensive lawyer time to find out. |
Well we've got this transcript where someone at Vail replied "that's fine" to an independent accident report. Whether that report was based on deliberate lying or oversight/misrecollection who knows?
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/803689-julierust.html
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
A comment on this incident, from Stuart “Boot” Gordon ...
http://www.vaildaily.com/opinion/8541960-113/skiers-vail-closed-code
| Quote: |
| Every skier knows that an upper portion of a ski run can be closed for safety reasons while the lower is open and safe. And every skier, including I’ll bet those caught in the avalanche on Vail’s Prima Cornice on that fateful day, knew that by sidestepping and climbing up the upper or closed part of the trail was dangerous and illegal. |
Fair comment?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
What parent lets their 13 year old ski alone (or with mates of similar age) off piste, even if he is an "expert" and even if it is supposed to be avalanche controlled and US style "in bounds"? Sorry if that sounds harsh, but having skied with teens for the last 7 years, I doubt many of us this side of the pond would. They aren't known for their sense of caution or self preservation. I fail to see how any 13 year old can properly be called an "expert" even if he is technically a very good skier.
Even if the ski company has not told the whole truth, you still have to prove their negligence caused the death. However, I suppose if the parents sue, a nutty US personal injury jury will find for them and whack enormous punitive damages on the ski company. (Despite being a lawyer myself I deplore the compensation culture and the need to find "blame" when something awful happens). I do wonder whether this case involves an element or the parents trying to absolve their sense of guilt for letting their son ski off piste unsupervised. 
In writing is post I realise I am sounding like a typical ill informed Daily Mail reader, so if I have my facts wrong, I'll shut up!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
I think people would often take this approach, ie sue, because they just want someone to acknowledge that things went wrong and that things will be changed for the future. Nik Zoricic' s family fall into this camp, they are desparate for someone to admit mistakes were made and will not happen again
I let my 10 yr old do runs with his friends at the end of the day, they often cycle with their ski coach, meaning they do a course the coach observes them and then asks the kds to come round again. All race clubs do that. Admittedly they don't go off piste, but I suspect they do at other hills where there is more off piste than ours. ie I suspect its not uncommon to get 13yr olds skiing the entire resort
US style in bounds is in no way comparable to European off piste and I think even calling it off piste is mis leading, its in bounds on non groomed runs or bowls.
The big question to me is whether you automatically ski past the upper gate when entering through the lower gate. ie would someone entering the lower gate definitely know the upper gate was closed? if not then there is a bit of an issue and ideally patrol would rope of the area above. Lack of tracks alone is not indicative that an area is shut.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
