 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all
Until recently I considered myself an advanced-intermediate skier, but recently I started having doubts.  The very basic question I am asking in this thread explains why.
For the last 5 years of so, have been I skiing for about 2 weeks each year. I have no problems with most black runs in Europe or Japan, and have done some off-piste in Japan. I ski reasonably fast and (usually) with control.
My question relates to the angle at which one should bend the knees. The most basic rule is that we need to have knees forward, shins pressing on the front of the boots. This is what I have been doing. In doing so, I keep the body and weight above my feet, irrespective of whether it is steep or flat.
I understand that the above is quite a standard/non-controvertial. What I recently realised, however, after seeing myself on a 5 sec video recording by a friend on his phone (which he does not longer have), is that I am fairly upright in my stance. Specifically, although my knees are bent, the bent angles (looking at the back of the leg) is about 140-150 degrees.
When I see videos of good skiers (racers / big mountain), they appear to bend they knees much more and sit much lower, almost in a saddle position (i.e. angles of 100-120 degrees). When I try to do the same, I find myself that my weight is distributed to the back and I steer with the tails of my skis.
So, what am I missing here? Is it just an optical illusion resulting from filming angles, the speeds at which those people skis, etc? Any views/ suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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vladiator, It's not about 'bending ze knees' . . . it's all about how good is your suspension.
The softer, stronger and more responsive you are over your skis . . . the better you can apply the skills and techniques you have acquired and will learn. There is a separation betwixt your ability to master your body and learning your sport.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
vladiator, It's not about 'bending ze knees' . . . it's all about how good is your suspension.
The softer, stronger and more responsive you are over your skis . . . the better you can apply the skills and techniques you have acquired and will learn. There is a separation betwixt your ability to master your body and learning your sport. |
Well, that, and also that people who ski at very high performance tend to have a lower stance, ie bending their knees and other joints more. Also, at times, they let their feet out in front of them, keeping (or trying to keep) your hips over your feet is a guaranteed route to perpetual low performance.
Stance is not a constant, there is no correct way to stand on your skis, only a compromise between being able to use your skis to their full potential and balancing the forces created.
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The stock answer these days is that it's not about bending ze kneez but flexing ze anklez. Pro skiers aren't a great role model to copy as a single frame exactly unless you're travelling the speeds they are with the dynamism they exhibit. Get close to a pro and you'll see how they are doing something serene on the surface with lots of very rapid movement going on as they adapt e.g. they can straightline mogul fields that would see most of us explode by the second bump.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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vladiator, welcome to snowHeads.
My advice would be to not focus on a particular body shape, but to think about the movements you make. Are they helping you to use your skis effectively? Are your movements in proportion to the forces that are being generated? Are you adapting your movements to changes in the terrain and the snow? Comparing our perceived body position to a snapshot image of other skiers is not going to be too helpful IMO.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| The stock answer these days is that it's not about bending ze kneez but flexing ze anklez. Pro skiers aren't a great role model to copy as a single frame exactly unless you're travelling the speeds they are with the dynamism they exhibit. Get close to a pro and you'll see how they are doing something serene on the surface with lots of very rapid movement going on as they adapt e.g. they can straightline mogul fields that would see most of us explode by the second bump. |
This... you can bend your knees with a straight ankle and you end up sitting back.
Concentrate more on your ankle flex... your knees will automatically follow.
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When I first started skiing it seemed as though all the instructors ever did was to shout 'Bend ze Knees'. Having watched my children learning I think that there seems to be a lot less focus on knee bending than there used to be. No idea why, maybe we finally got the message!
On a different note, I know for a fact that I always far too upright and stiff when I ski. Not a lot I can do about that, I'm English and over 40. However, I have (on tougher slopes) recently started to adopt what I rather deludedly think of as a 'Killy' pose that is more hunched with gorilla-like outstretched arms. It must look bloody awful, and nothing like my hero, but it does seem to work. Lower centre of gravity, better balance that are offset by howls of derision from my family. 
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fatbob, pro skiers aren't a great role model!? Then who is?
Yes, flexing the ankles is very important, but a lot of people ski way too upright, if you want performance, a lower more aggressive stance is essential.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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jimmer, don't confuse race style with best practice for mortals style, the goals are very different! watch your instructors, they are (or should be) trained to ski in control angling/flexing/pushing just the right amount to get them down the hill in the safest and most efficient way.
Also just because a skier is lower doesn't mean his knees etc are bent more, their feet may just be further from their bodies. Racers are usually quite straight in apex of the turn (unless they are ducking under a gate) and when they are changing edges very often they ARE on the tails a bit or at least in the middle of the ski, so unless you are shaving seconds, don't copy that...
I ski lower (and get shouted at for it) mostly because it just lowers your center of gravity and makes getting the balance of the turn a little easier..
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dulcamara, I think jimmer is an instructor 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| jimmer wrote: |
fatbob, pro skiers aren't a great role model!? Then who is?
Yes, flexing the ankles is very important, but a lot of people ski way too upright, if you want performance, a lower more aggressive stance is essential. |
I said as a single frame - try to emulate Ted the Shred's typical position in photos and 99% of us will end up sat on our harrises on the slope.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I am being pressured to go skiing right now
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Don't you just hate it when that happens 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
| Quote: |
I am being pressured to go skiing right now
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Don't you just hate it when that happens |
Haha, yeah it's tough! In fairness, it was really windy and grey and I wasn't keen, but El Colorado very kindly gave us free passes and we got to scope our competition venue for Friday, as well as get some laps in, so all in all a successful day.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dulcamara wrote: |
jimmer, don't confuse race style with best practice for mortals style, the goals are very different! watch your instructors, they are (or should be) trained to ski in control angling/flexing/pushing just the right amount to get them down the hill in the safest and most efficient way.
Also just because a skier is lower doesn't mean his knees etc are bent more, their feet may just be further from their bodies. Racers are usually quite straight in apex of the turn (unless they are ducking under a gate) and when they are changing edges very often they ARE on the tails a bit or at least in the middle of the ski, so unless you are shaving seconds, don't copy that...
I ski lower (and get shouted at for it) mostly because it just lowers your center of gravity and makes getting the balance of the turn a little easier.. |
What's mortal got to do with it? Shouldn't people strive to ski like the best in the world?
When you say watch your instructors, I do, the ones that I train for the school I work for, and if they want to pass the highest levels of instructing certification, they are going to develop a lower and more aggressive stance.
Racers do all sorts of things in transition, whatever they have to, but typically they are lower than you would think. Being on the tails isn't (necessarily) a bad thing, it's essential in high level skiing. For example it's literally impossible to absorb a mogul with your hips over your feet, try it and you will eat the next bump.
As for getting low laterally rather than vertically, have a look at the inside leg of anyone getting high edge angles, more often than not it's getting pretty close to their chest, yeah the outside leg is straight, but the inside is very much bent.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Thanks everyone for your responses!
Yeah, I thought that adaptation to the circumstances / terrain may have been the key. Also, to be honest, the videos of myself which I have seen involved me skiing on reasonably easy relaxing runs - maybe my stance also changes when situations demand it. Since I started analysing my stance, I have sometimes (usually at higher speeds) found myself having my feet a bit more forward from my body (shins were still touching the boots) which allowed me to "sit back" a bit lower on my skis. I still had control, but would then change to having the body over the feet, since I thought it was the correct classical position. Maybe I need to stop thinking about the body position too much, as long as the technical skiing elements are still performed correctly.
One think I wanted to clarify - what do people mean by ankle flex - making sure that it bends forward, therefore ensuring that the shins touch the front of the boots no matter where the rest of the leg is?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks for the article - it explains some of the questions I had.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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jimmer, f**k yeah. Just watched your comp run and that was awesome. Bad luck on the last, huge air but the entire thing was great.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Got a link please?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It was a stream of the event (Freeride World Qualifier in Chile) so it's not live anymore but I presume the footage will make it onto YouTube. The finals are on tonight at 0000ish at www.powdermag.com but with the fall I don't think jimmer will have made it through.
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Many thanks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Nice another Brit, Ally Watson was skiing towards the end as well AFAIK but I fell asleep before he started.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jimmer is on at 3:22:00 btw.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't know why Clare Burns is listed as representing the USA in the women's event, she has been GBR registered in the past.
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| meh wrote: |
| jimmer is on at 3:22:00 btw. |
is that 03:22hrs or 15:22hrs ?
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You know it makes sense.
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That's 3 hours 22 minutes and 0 seconds into the stream.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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a patch of snow then some people eating kebabs.
I assume he was starting around 3.23.55 - pretty good run and the last air showed big cajones.
Nice realistic simulation of freeskiing with the poling and skating at the end.
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Poster: A snowHead
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fatbob, I guess the time code wanders a bit if you chop around in the stream because he was in the gate for me. But everyone loves kebabs so its as good a place as any to start.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Finals on now BTW
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Great top section with a great recovery on the windlip.
Shame about the last air, but big kudos.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Cheers guys, it was my first comp, so learnt a lot, and had a great time. Everyone who skied out of the cliff I hit had facial bruising from their knees, so I am kind of glad my skis came off!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| Cheers guys, it was my first comp, so learnt a lot, and had a great time. Everyone who skied out of the cliff I hit had facial bruising from their knees, so I am kind of glad my skis came off! |
Haha. Great run Jim, respect.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
As for getting low laterally rather than vertically, have a look at the inside leg of anyone getting high edge angles,
more often than not it's getting pretty close to their chest, yeah the outside leg is straight, but the inside is very much bent. |
I don't always ski like this but was trying to get high edge angles when Ski testing!
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livetoski nice shot! Yeah exactly what I meant. Even in a partially skidded turn flexing the inside leg gives so much more ski performance, can be tricky to keep the edge angles the same though.
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FAQ
