Last night's London Evening Standard ran the story as their front page splash, actually changing their 'West End Final' edition mid-afternoon to carry the report ...
... The headline and sub-headline in the print edition (different in the online version) ...
GIANT SNOW DOME BY OLYMPIC PARK
£200m ski centre will rival world's biggest indoor resorts
Stratford project could open in 2015
Key points, apart from the fact that major developers Westfield (operators of the Olympic/Stratford shopping centre) want to build it to open as early as 2015:
Quote:
The longest run will be 300 metres ... several runs of varying difficulty
Quote:
There will also be toboggan runs and snow-play zones
... and, perhaps most significantly ...
Quote:
The Stratford snow dome aims to attract up to three million visitors a year
Imagine what that could do for the British skier population and onward demand for mountain holidays, maybe using Stratford's/St Pancras's potential for high-speed rail connections to the Alps (and eventual projected HS2 connections to Scotland).
Not surprisingly, this report has triggered interest from the financial and international press. The FT has a Boris Johnson ski joke ...
- The developers, Westfield, are Australian. Australia innovated the world's first indoor ski centre, back in 1987, called 'Mt Thebarton' in Adelaide. It was a converted ice rink: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_Arena_%28Adelaide%29
- There was an earlier proposal (Feb 2011) for the Olympic Park itself, by the British snow technology company Acer Snowmec. This would have redeveloped part of the land on the Park after the Games had closed. The Westfield project is for a plot just outside the Park, presumably linked directly to its shopping centre (as per Ski Dubai, which is part of a large shopping mall).
- It's quite possible that Acer Snowmec's snow system would go into the Westfield dome, since this is now so proven (Dubai, Hemel Hempstead Snow Centre, Manchester Chill Factore and numerous other facilities use it). The Snowmec system was originally prototyped from 1989 in a converted industrial unit in Telford, and produced perfect packed powder snow conditions (as I witnessed and skied) right from the start. It was invented by the British refrigeration expert Malcolm Clulow, based on freezing the snow bed itself, from networked coolant pipes underneath the piste ...
Echo the thought of why only 300m which is not by the way twice the current longest. Chill Factore in Manchester is 180 or 185 and just not long enough. Why not be bold and go for 600 - 800m FIS standard. Make it a truly great centre and not another one that doesn't know what it is like Chillfactore!
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Is 3 million visitors feasible?
After all it is free
After all it is free
8,000 a day - seems unlikely. Capacity of Landgraaf is about 2,000 at any one time.
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It sounds somewhat ambitious when you put it like that!
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Ade57, Agree, should be at least 450m or more. 300m is a improvement but still not enough.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
beequin wrote:
8,000 a day - seems unlikely.
It's about 8000 per day, over 364 days, though I guess that figure would fluctuate hugely between weekdays, weekends and holidays ... so I guess it would have to have the capacity to handle far more than that - 20,000 per day? - on a peak day. Whatever, it's true that these a very big numbers and partly define the necessary uplift/slope traffic capacity (not to mention the ski rental implications!).
Ski Dubai has a quad chairlift. The Tokyo Ski Dome (1993-2002) was on a comparable (but even bigger) scale of investment to the proposed London project, and had two high-speed detachable quad chairs, plus a travelator. This had 500m-long runs, but to achieve that it had a back-end that was over 80m above ground (I think 100m overall).
Even a building with 300m slopes in that area is going to be incredibly imposing ... and would need to look good architecturally. For comparison, the Olympic stadium is around 60m high, so I guess the snow dome will be about the same scale. A formidable prospect.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 26-07-13 11:39; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Yep have to agree as well, at 300m its not big enough for a capital city like London, the Standard article has a few mistakes about the size of slopes in relation to this planned slope there are a few 600m plus slopes in Europe.
The UK is crying out for a big indoor slope surely it can not be that difficult to find a 650m slope that you could put a roof over?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
blahblahblah, maybe 3 million visitors to the bars, shops and restaurants, but 3 million skiiers? No chance. That would require every active skiier in the UK to go there 3 times, based on a rough estimate of 1 million skiiers in the UK. Well, I live less than an hour from there and I'm not going to go there 3 times, and I am probably one of the most active skiiers I know.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Well, no, these operators would be looking at a far broader demographic than skiers - anyone who wants to ice-skate, party, snowball, toboggan, make snowpersons etc etc. But given that skiing is almost as easy as ten-pin bowling, it's realistic to see the venue as an alternative entertainment complex, in a semi-sporting way. Well delivered and marketed, it could do brilliantly.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Imagine what that could do for the British skier population
David i suspect that if only 5% of UK skiers ski in Scotland where there are decent length runs and challenging conditions, a very expensive 300m long run is unlikely to be that attractive to the British skier population.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
On the TV news they said it was planned to be the biggest indoor slope in Europe with a total of 800 metres of slopes. Not sure how that squares with 300 metre slopes: perhaps 2 of them with a 200 metre slope for lessons?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
livetoski, not sure it is as easy as that. Try finding a slope which is 700m high (allow a bit at the top and the bottom for the structure itself) in the South East. The highest points seem to be the the North Downs, but even they are under 300m. To find a descent that is vaguely direct and consistent from what would need to be 200m+ high to get a good 650m+ length.
The reason why Hemel is 160m long is because to make it longer the hill would need to be higher or they'd have been digging for a long time for limited benefit.
Of course, you can build a structure which is high enough on flat ground, but then you end up with a massive expensive structure which is almost certainly going to be a bit of an eyesore.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mistress Panda, I'm not sure about your calculations. Landgraaf only has a vertical drop of 63m according to the FIS website, Amnéville 69m.
100m of vertical would give a reasonable intermediate slope of 550m length.
Not achieveable in London but must be possible in the south east somewhere outside a protected landscape ?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
The Tokyo SkiDome had a really good pacy - and very wide - descent, but it failed commercially. It's essential that the slope gradients offer the optimum range of experiences for beginners to experts.
The Xanadu/Meadowlands project in New Jersey, a shopping mall-linked ski slope which has never opened (but even has two lifts - including a quad chair - installed), has become a major legal/commercial headache. This video was shot in 2009, but the ghostly monster structure and multi-coloured shopping centre continue to loom/gloom next to a major freeway out of New York City (as I spotted last summer, on the way to a wedding!).
Excluding the flats at top and bottom, the top half of the Hemel slope is 15º and the bottom half 10º. However it ends at first floor level so it could have carried on down across what is now the car park.
600 metres of actual slope, of Hemel's average steepness (plus flats at top and bottom) would require 133 metres of vertical.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Mistress Panda wrote:
blahblahblah, maybe 3 million visitors to the bars, shops and restaurants, but 3 million skiiers? No chance. That would require every active skiier in the UK to go there 3 times, based on a rough estimate of 1 million skiiers in the UK. Well, I live less than an hour from there and I'm not going to go there 3 times, and I am probably one of the most active skiiers I know.
That includes all children skiers taken on holiday.
I cannot see this being anything more than a pipe dream.
Capital costs to high, and estimate of use to high.
Sounds like the DM in its London afternoon dress.
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowball wrote:
Excluding the flats at top and bottom, the top half of the Hemel slope is 15º and the bottom half 10º. However it ends at first floor level so it could have carried on down across what is now the car park.
600 metres of actual slope, of Hemel's average steepness (plus flats at top and bottom) would require 133 metres of vertical.
Thats only like City Point or the Wheel. No Chance.
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Fantastic...so I can go skiing in the morning, see West Ham in the afternoon, pelt it round the velodrome in the evening, followed by a relaxing swim in the Olympic pool.
Who needs this Lake Tahoe and other resorts ski and swim combos, they seem a bit limited to me
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I am sure Westfield will be using the best snow technology and that would be the proven one done by Acer Snowmec. As for the fail NJ snowdome, that thing is ugly. One would have to blame the architects and structure engineers (the roof collapsed). The NJ dome was designed after Ski Dubai and looks 10 x worse.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
kazsak wrote:
As for the fail NJ snowdome ... (the roof collapsed).
You're right. I wasn't aware of that, but this is what happened in 2011, somewhat ironically due to snow (and not that much of it, by the look of things) ...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Seems like entire NJ project was a disaster. I never ski on the Acer Snowmec Real Snow. Is it much better than other indoor facilities in terms of snow quality?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I reckon there must be mileage in a slope that runs off the top of Beachy Head, and goes all the way down like a helter skelter until you ultimately come out at the bottom in the sea, where you will be recovered by a speedboat and driven round to a convenient recovery point. Or perhaps just having a lift from the floating pontoon at the bottom. It would also mean much easier access for the emergency services when they need to pick people off the rocks at the bottom. That must be £10K a year saved, which is probably more profit than they'll make out of skiiers.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
kazsak wrote:
I never ski on the Acer Snowmec Real Snow. Is it much better than other indoor facilities in terms of snow quality?
The snow I skied in the original 1989 Acer Snowmec facility in Telford was the best I've ever skied indoors. It was astonishingly good quality. On the basis of that experience, nearly 25 years ago, I assume that anyone with this system installed can produce snow to any optimum they choose.
But indoor ski operators don't necessarily want the softness to run deep, because moguls and ruts will form.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I worked at Beckton when it first opened. I skied there for 4 years. One of the best nights skiing was after the slope shut at 10.00 we carried on skiing until 1.00 am because there was so much snow. People were being towed along the back roads!
We need a new slope in London, Stratford would be good, you can go skiing and then when you come out you can do self defence when the locals try to rob you!!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Well I for one welcome the news. If it means I no longer have to drive round the northern part of the M25 to get a couple of hours "quick fix" of the white stuff then Huzzzzar!
3million visitors a year? I doubt it and to be honest I'm not sure I would want to go if it got that crowded, after all as pointed out in earlier posts only a 300m long slope?
But either way, lets get digging!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
[just curious]
THE THING, are you THE THING that emerged from the Antarctic snowdome/snowpole in the infamous John Carpenter movie THE THING?
For the record, I can perfectly understand why Westfield wouldn't want to build anything longer than 300m on flat urban terrain [it's adequate for plenty of turns, and what really matters is the quality/efficiency of the uplift to lap it]. If they pull this mother off it will be one heck of a landmark in the history and landscape of skiing - global skiing, not just the parochial UK scene.
[end of gush]
I am pretty sure it will have no issues with uplifts so skiers can lap quickly. Isn't Stratford area real estate pretty expensive? Probably one reason the run is at 300 M.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
kazsak, very good question. I wonder if the land involved was purchased by Westfield well before the Olympics was on a commercial roll. There were major doubts about the legacy (based on Barcelona's and other cities' experiences) and therefore land in Stratford before, say, 2010 would probably have been relatively cheap for London. The area was a wasteland. But the transport connections now - in particular - are outstanding.
Indeed, having been buried under Beckton for years i was woken by a remake a year ago. Can we have a link about Beckton and all the great times that were had there until near the end when things got out of control and everyone was AT IT!! The GREAT FIRE finished it off
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I presume this is a different proposal to the other one (linked somewhre in ) ref using the ex- media centre building at the other side of the park?
After all it is free
After all it is free
Media center was proposed by acer snowmec I believe. This one Westfield is the developer.
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Acer are just the snowmaking company/ski facility designers. They'd always be in partnership with a bigger developer.
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Arctic Roll wrote:
I presume this is a different proposal to the other one (linked somewhre in ) ref using the ex- media centre building at the other side of the park?
Yes, that one was proposed in Feb 2011, on land within the Olympic Park. This one is on land just outside the Park. The earlier thread was ...
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) ref using the ex- media centre building at the other side of the park?