 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello,
I recently sustained multiple tibial and fibial fractures on holiday, due to my ski bindings not releasing during a slow speed fall, and need some advice.
I was using skis (won't mention brand of ski or bindings) which I had owned for over a year, and skiied with multiple times at the Snowdome, and once for a week's holiday. I had not experienced a fall on these skis before this accident, other than the day before this occurred, whenI had a very minor tumble.
Both times I fell I was going at slow speed (and both are captured on video and stills) and neither time did the bindings release the skis. The first fall didn't result in any injury, however the second caused my foot to twist the opposite way to my knee, hence causing dis-alignment, and multiple connected fractures.
I'm sure that my bindings were set correctly (I've skiied on multiple holidays, at the Snowdome, both with hired and my own skis - and have varied between two settings, changing the setting by 1, as I've improved), and my ski instructors (who I trust with my life!) agreed that the settings were fine. The setting fell in the mid-range of the ski's DIN configuration, so it's not as if my setting was at an extreme lower or upper range, so I can't understand what happened.
Obviously I've been concentrating on my health for the last 4 weeks, and sorting out my general travel insurance claim, however I'm wondering if there's any worth in trying to pursue a claim against the manufacturers of the skis/bindings - or at least advise them that there may be issues with their product.
Like I say - I think the actual settings were fine, so I wouldn't want to place blame on the shop that sold me the skis and set my bindings up for me.
I hope this doesn't make me come across like I'm a money grubber - if so that's not my intention (so please don't be nasty to me, I'm still in trauma!).
If anyone does have any advice though about how I could go about making some sort of claim (or whether this is even possible), and/or contact names for good injury lawyers etc I would be most grateful. If this isn't a possibility, then I might just inform the manufacturer to tell them these bindings could be dodgy.
Many thanks in advance for any helpful responses.
Emm.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Emm,
You have my sympathy, but slow speed falls are always less likely to release the bindings as the forces are correspondingly lower and there is no perfect device to prevent injuries in all such falls.
If you can get someone to analyse the photographic evidence and show that the torques generated should have resulted in release (or if you get someone to look at the skis and test the torque for release is correct for the settings) then there might be a case, but I would not hold out any significant hope especially if you are the one who changed the DIN.
Hope all heals well and quickly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I would suspect there is no case.
Skiing is a risk sport and the issue of bindings opening / not is based on user-settings - not manufacturer settings...
So any manufacturer is likely to be suspicious that your settings were not accurate - they would suggest that any liability sits (quite reasonably) with the person who chose the settings - they would be able to demonstrate that their bindings release at lower settings / don't at higher settings - and therefore they do the job for which they are designed...
Settings are not absolute - they are subjective - they are based on body weight & skill level - therefore there is no absolute - you are xx kgs therefore, this is the setting...
It is possible that the bindings are dodgy - and quite possible that they are not and that either the accident was unfortunate - or that you had the settings wrongly set...
If you wanted to pursue the manufacturer, you would have to:
- have the bindings analysed to see whether they do / don't work to manufacturer spec.
- gain evidence for the basis on which your settings were chosen
- show based on evidence that for your skiing ability / body weight / type of accident / setting of bindings combination - that they should have opened
If you can do all that you might win!
I suspect that it is a) unlikely and b) very expensive
Of course there are plenty of legal firms who will tell you otherwise - our culture now is that it is always someone else's fault and that you can / should sue...
That doesn't mean that it would be right / would win / etc. - I suspect it will cost you a lot and take a lot of time...
Also - what would you be suing for? presumably your travel insurance is paying out - if you sue and get compensation - you may have to repay your travel insurance...
If those fractures are detrimental to your career / etc. then it might be assumed that you would have had a higher duty of care - if not, then you won't get compensation - your medical costs are presumably being paid for?
and if you lose the manufacturer could persue you for costs...
good luck!
Alasdair
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Emmeline, it just happens, like most car accidents 'just happen'. However lawyers are much less up to speed on ski tech than assigning blame in car accidents so I think a claim is highly unlikely to succeed. Also, the manufacturer will no doubt have extensively tested that model before it was released and knows it to be safe. It is possible they were set incorrectly but you discount this. It's also possible they were faulty, but bindings are actually relatively simple devices and there isn't much to go wrong, so it's unlikely.
The crux is as beequin, says, that at low speeds bindings are less likely to release; it's just how they are made. If the bindings are set too low to compensate for this, you will eject when turning at a speed correct for your level (which might result in even greater injury). I snapped a knee ligament falling backwards at low-speed despite skiing with the same DIN setting for years without previous incident.
Sadly there isn't a happy medium, but, you can purchase bindings designed specifically to be more likely to release in the event of a twisting action fall (example: https://www.head.com/ski/technologies/bindings/?region=eu&id=310 )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Spyderjon has a binding torque tester if you want them testing accurately.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I would get the bindings tested by someone who has the relevant machines, but unless you've had the bindings checked and serviced etc I suspect you don't even have enough of a case to get to court, and having adjusted them yourself I suspect you won't get anywhere.
But what you will find is that there are loads of no win no fee lawyers who will promise you the world, take on your case, and hope that they can bury a comparatively small company in so much paperwork that they pay out without ever going near a court room.
Skiing is a sport that involves some risk. You have a responsibility to manage that risk yourself. It sounds like you were unfortunate but I think you need to accept that if you want to do something that has much less chance of injury you'll need to take up chess. It isn't negligence or someone else causing you injury, it is just a case of the binding not releasing in the way that you thought it would.
You would also need evidence that the bindings were not tampered with in any way between the accident and examination by an expert. Clearly it is too late for that to reliably be the case - you could have done anything to them between then and now.
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Emmeline, can't help, but as a fellow fracture sufferer at the moment, my sympathies and I hope your recovery goes well.
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Emmeline, I don't know the answer to your question - though I too sustained (soft tissue) injury when my skis failed to release during a slow/awkward manoeuvre some years ago - but am really sorry you have been injured and do hope you have a quick and successful recovery.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Emmeline wrote: |
Hello,
I recently sustained multiple tibial and fibial fractures on holiday, due to my ski bindings not releasing during a slow speed fall, and need some advice.
I was using skis (won't mention brand of ski or bindings) which I had owned for over a year, and skiied with multiple times at the Snowdome, and once for a week's holiday. I had not experienced a fall on these skis before this accident, other than the day before this occurred, whenI had a very minor tumble.
Both times I fell I was going at slow speed (and both are captured on video and stills) and neither time did the bindings release the skis. The first fall didn't result in any injury, however the second caused my foot to twist the opposite way to my knee, hence causing dis-alignment, and multiple connected fractures.
I'm sure that my bindings were set correctly (I've skiied on multiple holidays, at the Snowdome, both with hired and my own skis - and have varied between two settings, changing the setting by 1, as I've improved), and my ski instructors (who I trust with my life!) agreed that the settings were fine. The setting fell in the mid-range of the ski's DIN configuration, so it's not as if my setting was at an extreme lower or upper range, so I can't understand what happened.
Obviously I've been concentrating on my health for the last 4 weeks, and sorting out my general travel insurance claim, however I'm wondering if there's any worth in trying to pursue a claim against the manufacturers of the skis/bindings - or at least advise them that there may be issues with their product.
Like I say - I think the actual settings were fine, so I wouldn't want to place blame on the shop that sold me the skis and set my bindings up for me.
I hope this doesn't make me come across like I'm a money grubber - if so that's not my intention (so please don't be nasty to me, I'm still in trauma!).
If anyone does have any advice though about how I could go about making some sort of claim (or whether this is even possible), and/or contact names for good injury lawyers etc I would be most grateful. If this isn't a possibility, then I might just inform the manufacturer to tell them these bindings could be dodgy.
Many thanks in advance for any helpful responses.
Emm. |
So you were happy with your purchase for over a year, then you fell and you were unlucky and broke your leg?
My advice is to accept it and concentrate on getting better, it's a risky sport and chasing a payout is poor form.
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davidhammy,
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chasing a payout is poor form
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It's also poor form to poo-poo a carefully considered question so patronisingly. She isn't 'chasing a payout' she's merely considering her options at the moment.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sounds like you don't have a leg to stand on 
Slow speed twisting falls are notorious for causing injury. Many folks will tell you to relax in a fall. This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't. Learn how to brace your legs so that the bindings release. This will prevent them from being twisted to unfeasable angles so causing injury.
I hope you fix soon.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Something I forgot: The binding isn't the only thing in the equation here, your boots are also important. If the heel and/or toe piece is very worn down then it will not interact correctly with the ski binding (if you see screws on the sole then it's beyond dangerous). Just something to consider, people who ski in old boots have no idea of the risk they are taking.
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I suspect that your bindings came out of the box with a little booklet or card attached to them. That little item has a statement that basically says skiing is dangerous and you may hurt yourself, it then goes on to say how in lots of legal terms that it wont be the manafacturers fault if you do.
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You know it makes sense.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| I suspect that your bindings came out of the box with a little booklet or card attached to them. That little item has a statement that basically says skiing is dangerous and you may hurt yourself, it then goes on to say how in lots of legal terms that it wont be the manafacturers fault if you do. |
Waivers are funny though, unfair contract terms legislation over-rules many of them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
slow speed falls are always less likely to release the bindings as the forces are correspondingly lower and there is no perfect device to prevent injuries in all such falls
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I've found this to be very true - my sister in law broke a leg in New Zealand when she fell at the top of a chairlift, and various friends have bust ligaments in slow falls. It happens such a lot that it's hard to believe you could have a successful claim. Good idea to have the bindings tested, though - they might well NOT have been releasing at the correct point. My niece has a very techy engineer for a husband and he has devised a kind of "torque tester" for bindings. When he tested ours a number of pairs of bindings set to the same number were requiring very different torque to release and he was fiddling around with them. Gave me the willies, frankly.  But mine subsequently released PDQ when I had a collision which broke my pelvis (whereas the guy who hit me needed help, when he was still on the ground, to get his skis off). I have mine set very low (4.5) and always have to sign a waiver when I buy new skis as I insist on having them set a lower than the charts say I should. They NEVER pre-release; I am not an aggressive skier and don't ski the kind of terrain where a pre-release would be a disaster. Some people I ski with seem to have them dialled up ridiculously high, for pottering round on piste with their kids.
Your injury sounds very painful; I hope you make a full recovery and are soon in action again.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Claude beat me to it but yes Spyderjon could test the bindings to be sure they are working correctly. As others have said bindings don't release as quick in slow falls, thats how I tore my calf muscle last year, it did let go but not till I felt everything in my leg let go first!
Hope you are on the road to recovery and will be back to skiing soon!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Pedantica wrote: |
davidhammy,
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chasing a payout is poor form
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It's also poor form to poo-poo a carefully considered question so patronisingly. She isn't 'chasing a payout' she's merely considering her options at the moment. |
Nope, the question is obvious......do I have a claim? And my answer is no as there is an inherent danger in skiing
The O/P has admitted she has adjusted her own bindings then gone fishing by asking members of a forum if she could blame someone/anyone and in turn make/claim some money by pointing the finger is indeed, poor form.
Accidents happen, she needs to accept that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidhammy, +1.
We all know skiing can be dangerous. You need to accept the risks when you go skiing. I am astonished that anybody could consider the bindings to be faulty in the first place, and then look to blame the manufacturers. The owner (of the bindings) should maintain the bindings and ensure that they work properly.
If manufacturers were sued over accidents then skiing would very quickly cease to have any equipment manufacturers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
davidhammy,
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chasing a payout is poor form
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It's also poor form to poo-poo a carefully considered question so patronisingly. She isn't 'chasing a payout' she's merely considering her options at the moment. |
Unfortunately it's not how the whole post comes across (to me)
I wholeheartedly agree with the view of getting the bindings torque tested and if there's a problem take it up with the company.
The most likely cause is user error either in setting the din too high or just the unfortunate mechanism of the fall.
Hope your back skiing soon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidhammy wrote: |
Nope, the question is obvious...
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"Nope". Why do people not just type "no"?
Emmeline sorry to hear of your injury - I broke my ACL last season when my bindings didn't release (and it wasn't even a particularly slow fall). I have them at 4.5 now as recommended by my instructor (who has them on the same setting after doing her ACL and who skis all sorts now, with a lot of energy and has never had a pre-release). Frankly, I was skiing pretty gingerly this season. I'm assuming I'll be skiing a little more confidently next season but if not - and assuming I'll be the same weight - I'd take them down to 4 as I won't be worrying about losing a ski whilst on some gnarly couloir.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I have them at 4.5 now as recommended by my instructor
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same as mine - and I suspect I weigh a fair bit more than Miranda ( 9 stone 7 at the moment).
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same as mine and I am 11st 8lb, I don't get pre-release
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I have them at 4.5 now as recommended by my instructor
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Ski instructors are not always experts on bindings.
No mention yet of the forward pressure setting which can have an adverse affect on the function, and in slow twisting falls in particular.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jbob wrote: |
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I have them at 4.5 now as recommended by my instructor
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Ski instructors are not always experts on bindings.
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Perhaps not, but I think she was right to say I have no need to ever go over 4.5 having known me - and how I ski - for 4 seasons.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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moffatross, I don't have a problem with the use of slang, nor with those opting to type a shorter synonym... but I find the way 'nope' is often used on this forum a bit rude because it tends to be done in a dismissive manner.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| moffatross wrote: |
I reserve that one for when I'm really, really cross.  |
Yes, the roll eye smiley is pretty rude if used directly against another poster.
(I think I reserve it for rumdiary... no even then I *think* I've resisted)
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You know it makes sense.
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miranda, 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I tend to use it mostly against myself. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Emmeline, Get well soon.
As you set the bindings yourself, I think your only chance of redress is if you can prove there was a manufacturing defect or design fault with the bindings. So you could get the bindings/boot combination tested and should if you intend them to be used again.
I think most bindings are designed to release above the set force only when the toe moves sideways or the heel upwards. I hit a object below soft snow, that ski released but I fell in such a way that the force was directly on the other ski's tail so it did not release and I suffered a nasty calf muscle injury.
| altis wrote: |
| Slow speed twisting falls are notorious for causing injury. Many folks will tell you to relax in a fall. This is a perfect example of why you shouldn't. Learn how to brace your legs so that the bindings release. This will prevent them from being twisted to unfeasible angles so causing injury. |
I am not sure about this, my most spectacular falls have been when relaxed and taken by surprise. The falls could be relished when I found I was not hurt. My worst injuries have been sustained at low speed resisting the fall.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On high speed falls I never seem to lose a ski. I just tuck my legs up and spin on my back like a turtle  And people who know me have seen plenty of my falls LOL
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You'd need a lawyer who is both a skier and fairly expert in ski bindings to truly know if you have a case, rather than just worth a shot. I along with most of the above posters suspect you don't based on;
i They were your skis - therefore your responsiility re binding setting, servicing, maintenance etc
ii You reset the DIN yourself
iii On the advice of an instructor NOT by reference to an official shop chart
iv Bindings are safety equipment but they're not guaranteed to prevent injury
v Slow falls often aren't dynamic enough to release.
I've had a tibial plateau fracture from a forwards in-line fall (binding released but not before knee had snapped on itself). I wouldn't dream of thinking it was the binding's fault, not even the greatest design in the world, which most cheap available bindings aren't, can protect in all dimensions.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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General advice is to get legs straight out in front of you and relax. You definitely want to make the effort to untwist the legs but otherwise best to let it go. Fighting a fall caused by letting yourself get caught on your inside ski after a heavy night on heavy snow because you don't want to fall over in front of your mates may put you out of action with a sore knee for a few weeks.
As pointed out above it is standard industry practice that the bindings should only be set be a qualified technician and not by an instructor so a claim would be difficult. The standard DIN shop settings based on height, weight, ski boot length and ability are freely available on the internet so you could check whether you had the recommended setting but as said slow falls are the worst because the forces are not suffecient to release the bindings at very slow speeds as tension should be suffecient that it is also not dangerous at higher speeds. A good quality ski shop should be able to check the binding setting and whether it is releasing properly. Unless you have a receipt for the skis, they are in the warranty period, the bindings were correctly set and serviced and a qualified technician can evidence there is a mechanical fault with the bindings as a result of a manufacturing fault then it is difficult to see a claim
Personally, having had fair share of injuries I would get the bindings checked anyway but it is doubtful there is a claim and at some point it is best to move from blaming the binding to accepting some pilot error and focus on getting better.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Instructors are some of the worst people on the hill when it comes to touching bindings, second only to 'the guy in the lift hut'. If they don't have a DIN chart in front of them don't let them fiddle with it - same applies in the shop tbh, plenty of ski techs who think they know better, but don't. I started in ski hire in 2001 but still refer to the chart for every single customer.
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This thread has made me nervous - so I've just emailed spyderjon!
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Pedantica, I got mine torque tested by spyderjohn, one binding was not realeasing true to din.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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albinomountainbadger, do you ask clients what level of skier they are when you refer to the chart, or do you ask them what terrain they're going to be skiing and how?
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Oh there's also the problem with system bindings that adjust like rental skis. These are the ones with boot sole length numbers on the front and back of the bindings, and the heel and toe pieces move back and forth to meet the numbers. Well often these numbers are inaccurate - the boot might clip in cleanly but when you look at the forward pressure indicator it won't be in its optimum position. To correct it you have to move the heel or toe piece another notch, meaning for a 315 boot you might be at 315 front and 317 back (I prefer to move the back as if anything it's easier for our average client). This varies quite a lot by manufacturer, and unless you know what you're looking for some forward pressure indicators are less than obvious (sadly no industry standard form). Just another reason to get it done properly from the outset.
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FAQ
