Hi folks, I'm not very experienced at this whole skiing thing, so if anyone could offer a bit of advice on this it'd be much appreciated!
Basically, I recently spent a couple of months in Canada, and got skiing a bit, and fell in love with it. The only other time I'd been was 6 years before that. I'm set to do a season in the Rockies this coming winter. I'll be buying skis and boots at the start of the season (probably second hand), and given my budget I probably won't be buying a second set of skis. I've now got 3 weeks skiing under my belt, and I seem to be at the point where I can handle most black slopes here in Europe relatively well.
At some point in the coming season, given that I'll be getting in a lot of skiing, I hope to get lessons on backcountry skiing, and move on to doing some fairly low-level off-piste stuff. Obviously this will be dependent on my progress throughout the season, but that's the plan.
Anyway, my question is this: would it be advisable to buy a 'one ski quiver' set of skis at the start of the season, in anticipation of some off-piste skiing later in the season? Obviously it would be great from a financial point of view if I get by on 1 set of skiis for the season, but it had occured to me that perhaps these all-terrain type skis are only really appropriate for already strong skiers.
Thanks in advance!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Humbolt wrote:
I've now got 3 weeks skiing under my belt, and I seem to be at the point where I can handle most black slopes here in Europe relatively well.
!
Are you skiing them gracefully or surviving them?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
Humbolt wrote:
I've now got 3 weeks skiing under my belt, and I seem to be at the point where I can handle most black slopes here in Europe relatively well.
Humbolt, you can probably get a seasonal rental deal that will allow you to rent skis and chop and change a little as required.
Do not buy second hand boots.
1. do you really want your own feet to spend a season in another persons stinky, bug infested footwear ecosystem? Bleuch.
2. especially if you are doing a season invest in a nice new pair, properly fitted by a decent bootfitter. Someone on here may have advice I know that e.g. there are good ones and bad ones in Whistler.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Cheers for the advice, I'll definitely get a new pair of boots so, and I'll look into that season rental. . I spent a week in Chatel in January and did the 5 black slopes there, and a couple in avoriaz on the last day. Maybe these are comparatively easy resorts, I've no idea! I wouldn't say it was quite graceful but I feleastt in control except for the odd scary second.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Humbolt, there are tough blacks accessible from those resorts, but the reality is that you are probably overselling your skiing ability.
My advice would be to get your boots sorted out now, and get some time in over the summer. Go to some of the demo days, find a pair of skis that you can fall in love with, and then buy them. You could, of course, buy the same skis secondhand, or at least if we know what skis you love we can advise some skis that will work for you. Without even a suggestion of what you have skiied before and got on with, we can't give any decent advice other than very bland "here are a few allrounders" recommendations that might work for you. Or they might not.
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If you're not trolling you're still unlikely to like the answer. I'd buy some ex demos or 2nd hand out there. The realistic advice for an experienced skier would be to buy skis in a 95-110mm width for where you're going (assuming adult male above jockey size), however you probably lack some fundamentals so might not being doing yourself favours with this kind of all mountain ski so you probably need something skinnier and piste based while you develop your skills. And you'll need to take lessons unless you're a very visual learner and find yourself some very good mates.
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fatbob, there are no mates on a powder day...
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
fatbob wrote:
The realistic advice for an experienced skier would be to buy skis in a 95-110mm width for where you're going (assuming adult male above jockey size)
I refer the honourable to the following video evidence. Christian Boucher is 5'2". Rides PM Bros.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
I'd definitely support the notion of spending the largest slice of your budget on boots. Get them fitted by a good bootfitter who really knows their trade. Anyone who doesn't have a look at your feet first before getting boots out should be avoided.
In terms of skis, I'd avoid the 95 - 115 notion unless you're going to spend most of your time in really deep stuff. No matter what the publicity tells you, skis obey the laws of physics and the wider they are, the less capable of holding an edge they will be. Have a look at 'The Ultimate Skier' by Ron LeMaster for a detailed explanation. A ski say 78 - 85 is plenty for just about any situation. Sure 115 will float better in deep powder but in reality there aren't too many days like that in a season. If you're buying just 1 ski, the versatility of a ski as mentioned above will serve you fer better in my opinion. I taught last season in Canada with 1 pair of skis of 85 mm. The backside of our mountain has its share of steep and deep and they never let me down.
A for judging yourself by whether you can get down a black run is not necessarily the best assessment of ability or the skis you need. It would be more useful to see some footage of you skiing to get a better idea. As a poster above said, are you skiing these runs fluently or surviving with a series of braking manoeuvres?
Hope this helps.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
If you want one ski to do everything, look at circa 100mm underfoot twins - will cover you for pow/bumps/crud/piste (as long as it's not blue ice)/park.
Nordica Soul Riders are worth a look, playful flex and not demanding to ski, have the standard Nordica great edge grip, trad sidecut with an 18m (I think) turn radius and camber underfoot results in surprisingly impressive carving performance, mellow tip and tail rocker helps in any ungroomed conditions.
Unless you only ski offpiste when it's powdery, and stick to groomers the rest of the time, I disagree with Ade57's advice. Skinny skis suck in wind crust, sun crust, crud, etc; basically all the conditions you find offpiste the majority of the time. Powder's the easy bit, it's everywhere else wider skis shine, and a good core negates much of 'lesser edge grip problem.'
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
85 mm is hardly skinny and can certainly manage crud if you've got some technique to back it up. It doesn't matter what core the ski has, a skinnier ski will hold better than a wide one. Like I say it's physics. Get on an ice rink on a pair of poorly maintained skates and feel them grip on bullet proof ice. It's because of where the edge is in relation to the ankle.
Obviously what skis you buy is a matter of personal preference but I maintain you'll be more versatile with less width.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Ade57, it can manage crud if you're a good enough skier, but it will never as good, and never as fun. Equally true the other way round; a fat ski is fine on piste if you're a decent skier. Priorities and all, but IMO circa 100mm is the best compromise for the majority of conditions.
Of course the core matters - a wider ski with a really torsionally stiff carbon (or with lots of metal/etc) core will have better edge grip than a skinnier ski with a low-quality wood or foam core. Of course if the two skis have the same core then the narrower will grip better, but we're only talking a few mm wider, it's not that great a difference.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
I took the like for like composition of the core as given as I assumed the original poster would understand. I was aiming my comments somewhat specifically at the thread started who is of limited experience and I think implies a lot of the use of the ski will be on piste. I do, however, hold with the view that a ski of the width I suggest is a better compromise. Just my opinion!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Thanks for the advice folks, definitely some useful stuff there. Reckon I'll be focusing on getting a good pair of well fitted boots, and some fairly skinny skis to start off with, and see where it goes from there.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Ade57,
Quote:
Just my opinion!
Fair enough. Depends on aspirations really, and whether you want a ski that's 'right for now' or one to grow into, especially as he's doing a season.
Didn't mean to sound as sharp as I may have come across, btw, apologies for that.
Personally, I would go fatter. If you have aspirations to do heli skiing and jump off cliffs then k2 hellbents would be a great choice. Perfect choice to grow into. Also ideal for learning to ski parallel.
If you've only done three weeks before, and are off to do a season, then you're in the exact same position my gf was this time last year.
My advice is to trawl ebay, or stick a "ski wanted" post in the buy sell forum here, and look for something for very little cost that is less than 70 under the foot and will last you the first 3 or 4 weeks of your season. Realistically, at your stage of progression you probably can't tell the difference between a top of the line ski and a basic one anyway. Then when you're out there, test skis, keep an eye out for people selling their last year's skis and generally get more of idea what you want. Don't spend a large proportion of your ski budget on anything without having skied it first!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Humbolt, ^^^^^^^^ flaming and Ade57 are giving good advice IMO. Ignore clarky999 - he's clearly not registered that you've only done three weeks and thanks for the laughs Elston - hilarious. Yeah, why stop at 100mm, might as well go the whole hog
After all it is free
After all it is free
clarky999 is just keeping to the script on what is a proper all mountain ski these days.
It's not relevant for the purposes of the OP but in general people who say 85mm is plenty wide enough either are very, very, very good skiers or they simply haven't experienced real claggy crud, high moisture "powder", mashed potatoes etc etc (and probably cry off early on spring days when the corn harvest is at its peak). In Western Canada all these are more likely than "no snow for 3 weeks Euro hardpack polish".
For a developing skier they obviously need to develop fundamentals first and these are easier to develop on a skinnier ski which is bio-mechanically easier to get on edge and there is a danger that by getting on a wide ski too early they fail to develop good technique and are left skidding everywhere.
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fatbob, agreed on every point ... and so eloquently made
Not having a go clarky999 but 100mm is a bit of a joke for a three week'er. Hardly something to develop on that early in one's sliding career
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flowa there are however exceptions - you'll see surfers, skateboarders, rollerbladers or ice hockey players rock up in resorts get chucked on a pair of skis that their mate has lying around however unsuitable and within a week they'll be ripping around as if they've been skiing all their lives. Fundamentals of balance, stacking, weighting and angulation go a long way wherever they've transferred from.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
flowa wrote:
fatbob, agreed on every point ... and so eloquently made
Not having a go clarky999 but 100mm is a bit of a joke for a three week'er. Hardly something to develop on that early in one's sliding career
I disagree, as long as you look at the right circa 100mm ski - like the pair I suggested. As long as it's a fairly traditional shape, it'll be fine to develop on, maybe not the best, but fine. More importantly, as he can only afford one ski for the whole season, it won't hold him back later either. As he seems to be a pretty adventurous 3 week skier, he will surely progress a lot over a season, and mentions backcountry aspirations, that's pretty important. Especially as Canada has lots of 'inbounds' avi-protected ungroomed areas, there should be no reason for him to be skiing mainly pistes.
Btw, how many mid-fat skis have you skied? Friends who visited me this season had only skied a few weeks before, yet I advised they hired the widest skis in the shop (89mm Scott Missions). They had no problems onpiste, told me they found offpiste much more enjoyable than the few attempts they'd made before, and improved massively in all aspects of skiing over the 10 days. Early development may be a littler slower, but worth it for later.
If you want one ski to do everything equally well, 100mm is about right. There's absolutely no reason why a 3 week skier has to be piste-focussed (which is what <85mm is)! I think you're coming at this from a very 'Euro piste skier' perspective.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
clarky999 wrote:
Btw, how many mid-fat skis have you skied? Friends who visited me this season had only skied a few weeks before, yet I advised they hired the widest skis in the shop (89mm Scott Missions). They had no problems onpiste, told me they found offpiste much more enjoyable than the few attempts they'd made before, and improved massively in all aspects of skiing over the 10 days.
If you want one ski to do everything equally well, 100mm is about right. There's absolutely no reason why a 3 week skier has to be piste-focussed (which is what <85mm is)!
I'm 165cm and ski 181cm 2008 Scott P4's. Their tip-to-tail dimensions are 134, 108, 128. It was while railing them onpiste in prep for an offpiste group at the EoSB 2011 that Tom from New Gen skied up beside me and suggested that I do my L2. Good enough?
I totally disagree with you that 100mm are a good all season ski for someone of our OP's limited experience. Listen to your own words about your friends. They did well on 89s, not 100s! Give the OP a break and a chance to learn. Sure they make offpiste more accessible but one needs to build from the ground up to have solid foundations. Jumping in too quickly to 'fat skis' is laughable advice.
fatbob has given fabulous advice that I think the OP would be wise to take.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 17-07-13 6:57; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
flowa,
- He can only afford one pair of skis for the whole season
- He seems to be a pretty adventurous 3 week skier, picking skiing up fairly quickly, and I assume is fairly young and fit; presumably he will develop a lot (and quickly) over a season
- He's going to Canada, where resorts are as much about 'inbounds' avi-protected ungroomed terrain as pistes, even for early skiers
- He has offpiste/backcountry aspirations
He just needs to look at the right sort of 100mm skis - with trad shapes, good edge hold and not too stiff. Like the Nordicas I suggested. May make early on-piste development a little slower, but he'll be past that stage in a couple of weeks, and at that point such a ski will shine for the rest of the season. Equally it'll be better every time he heads off the groomed.
Friends who visited me this season had only skied a few weeks before, yet I advised they hired the widest skis in the shop (89mm Scott Missions). They had no problems onpiste, told me they found offpiste much more enjoyable than the few attempts they'd made before, and improved massively in all aspects of skiing over the 10 days. In fact the old shape Scott Punishers and Missions would be good options for the OP, and should be available at bargain prices.
If you want one ski to do everything - including all the 'in between' conditions - equally well, 100mm is about right. There's absolutely no reason why a 3 week skier has to be piste-focussed or on such ski (which is what <85mm is)! I think you're coming at this from a very 'Euro piste skier' perspective - which is only one approach, not the only or necessarily correct one. Btw, how many mid-fat skis have you skied to draw your conclusions from?
+1 to this:
Quote:
in general people who say 85mm is plenty wide enough either are very, very, very good skiers or they simply haven't experienced real claggy crud, high moisture "powder", mashed potatoes etc etc (and probably cry off early on spring days when the corn harvest is at its peak). In Western Canada all these are more likely than "no snow for 3 weeks Euro hardpack polish".
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Quote:
Jumping in too quickly to 'fat skis' is laughable advice.
as is that.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Well I did write that ^^ to replace my other, terribly written, post. As you quoted the old one I'll leave it though.
The P4's are fairly stiff (at least underfoot), long for your height/presumably weight (which is a good thing for you) and relatively demanding skis. Really not comparable in any way to the playful, easy-to-ski, 97mm ski I'm recommending. As to whether what 'Tom from Ellis Brigham' thinks of your skiing makes you 'good enough' (whatever that means), I have absolutely no idea; I haven't seen either of you ski. I'm just asking what experience you have on the sort of skis that we're talking about.
89-97 is not a big jump. Perfectly possible to learn the fundamentals on, and won't hold him back when he's learnt them.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 16-07-13 13:40; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
clarky999, Yebbut the most balanced advice seems to be buy some throwaway piste skis, work on your technique for a few weeks then pick up something a bit wider (locally second hand/ex demo etc/ try before you buy etc) to develop further. Can't see many downsides to this approach (other than maybe being £50 out of pocket on the first pair of skis and missing out on an epic pow day in the first few weeks). It'd be nutty to stay on a sub 85 ski all season but there are ways and means of getting there.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fatbob, for sure, if budget allows!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
clarky999 wrote:
There's absolutely no reason why a 3 week skier has to be piste-focussed (which is what <85mm is)!
If they can't ski parallel on piste, and I mean proper parallel turns, then they really shouldn't be off-piste focused.
I agree with everyone who is suggesting some boots + cheap & sensible skis.
clarky999, Yebbut the most balanced advice seems to be buy some throwaway piste skis, work on your technique for a few weeks then pick up something a bit wider (locally second hand/ex demo etc/ try before you buy etc) to develop further. Can't see many downsides to this approach (other than maybe being £50 out of pocket on the first pair of skis and missing out on an epic pow day in the first few weeks). It'd be nutty to stay on a sub 85 ski all season but there are ways and means of getting there.
Indeed. I've been avoiding weighing in on this one for obvious reasons. Several things:
1) spend as much as you reasonably can on boots. Have a look at the tech talk section of the Teton Gravity Forums and find a decent bootfitter near where you will be skiing - you will want to be able to take them back for modification. I would make as much use of the search function as you can and refrain from asking questions as the place is a bearpit. Mntlion, who works out of Banff (iirc) seems to be the go to guy.
2) ideally you are in for two pairs of skis. Buy something skinny - i.e. sub 80mm and cheap. Watch for second hand sales in your chosen resort close to the start of the season. Google "Whistler Turkey sale" for an example of what's on offer. Spend as little money on these as possible.
3) You will probably want to start looking for new gear after Xmas. Watch gear swap on the aforementioned TGR forums. Also, bluntly, people will get hurt as the season goes on or find they have bought the wrong thing and need to be relieved of their unwanted gear. Demo extensively at this stage. You may end up on reasonably large skis but once you start getting ok at skiing then it becomes a matter of taste as much as ability what you spend your day on. FWIW, I think 100-110mm is about right for someone skiing off piste all the time but that is a second or third order issue at this stage.
4) Do not underestimate how much you will improve over the course of a season. That will change what you want from your gear very quickly.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 16-07-13 14:24; edited 1 time in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Elston wrote:
clarky999 wrote:
There's absolutely no reason why a 3 week skier has to be piste-focussed (which is what <85mm is)!
If they can't ski parallel on piste, and I mean proper parallel turns, then they really shouldn't be off-piste focused.
Why?
Ideally there wouldn't be a focus on just one aspect of skiing at all, mixing it up early on will make for a better skier in the long run. Which would seem to be Easiski's approach, and she's often plugged as an excellent instructor on here.
Of course two sets of skis really is the best way, if the OP can find a way to make that possible.
clarky999, I think your quarrel is with dogmatism rather than the individual arguments.
There's no doubt in my mind that there is a flaw in the European instruction "model" in that it seems to build up in the minds of pupils "off piste" as something special and magical in either a "there be dragons" or a "you've got to be a top class pistencarver before you can step outside the pole". But in reality, individual instructors aren't like that at all and good ones are interested in building toolkits to help skiers adapt to whatever is underfoot.
There's little point in someone who is very backseat on piste trying to tackle some deep and funky wet slop off piste on ordinary skis, relying on getting even more backseat and knee ligaments holding together to make each bumcheek powered turn. Better for them to do drills to get to a more stacked and flexible default stance. But in moderation I don't see why adults shouldn't be skiing through all sorts of junk as part and parcel of the ordinary learning process. They did in pre 1970s before grooming became ubiquitous on far inferior equipment.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
fatbob, maybe.
I've been doing a bit of thinking and reading lately about the value of cross-training or multiple disciplines for overall skill. For instance, I'm damn sure I'd be a better skier if I'd spent some time race training and in the park (composure in the air etc) than just focussing on offpiste stuff (at least recently), or a better kayaker if I'd got involved with slalom racing and freestyle, or even just canoeing, instead of only creeking. The more I think about, the more I think it'd be better if people were encouraged to try all disciplines (even park!) when learning to ski, right from the off, even if it's just at really low levels. Seems to get harder to do the better you get, as ego gets involved - I look like a right lady's front bottom on the rare occassions I venture into the park, 'all the gear and sick 220º degree rotations to nosebleed'
After all it is free
After all it is free
fatbob wrote:
There's no doubt in my mind that there is a flaw in the European instruction "model" in that it seems to build up in the minds of pupils "off piste" as something special and magical in either a "there be dragons" or a "you've got to be a top class pistencarver before you can step outside the pole".
I don't really understand this either, I often find if you read, for example, levels for ski classes, they say you should be able to ski all pistes well and be starting to ski off piste. I would expect someone who could ski all pistes well to also be able to ski off piste pretty well.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I think the movement to fat skis is often at the expense of technique and experience but that's a whole other discussion. It intrigues me that skiers today want to ski deep snow and almost snobbishly deride the piste yet on the other hand seek skis that allow them to ski on it rather than in it approximating the piste experience as closely as they can. I like a challenge. I like to ski in powder, not just float on top of it. If I simply wanted to sit on top of it 120mm is a great option but then so is a sledge! Just my opinion and before anyone asks, yes I do embrace modern ski technology.
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Ade57, ha ha I totally agree. I don't subscribe at all to the "it makes it easy" camp. Why would I? Taken to a ridiculous extreme it would ne a little like me describing myself as a mountaineer just because I have been up the Aiguille cable car a few times.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
to the following video evidence. Christian Boucher is 5'2". Rides PM Bros.
