 Poster: A snowHead
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Small world.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry Greg, but I think you are 10yrs and 25 thread pages behind? The discussion is now on to the finer points of what constitutes a cancellation, or breach of the original contract, and therefore fault, and it will differ for each school involved and probably come down to what was communicated in writing rather than phone calls.
I noted that in the past CR defended himself using legal aid. It would not surprise me to see the same and even counter claims for damages to business and reputation! God I hope that the law isn't that daft.
It should be black and white - you decide on a holiday, venue and details and pay the deposit. By the time you pay in full their should be firm/confirmed bookings in place with everything in the deal (hotels, ferries, coaches, instructors etc). If no changes have been communicated at that time, that could be a breach, as would not having made any bookings at all. I accept that hotels and other services are not paid up until the end, but in a busy season like a half term or Easter, I can't see many hotels or other businesses not requiring a deposit, and that would be proof of booking. SE pulling out an email saying they had 'reserved' something would not be sufficient if it was not secured closer to the date (e.g. at least 4-6 weeks before).
Instructors working for SE would be the worst hit - I bet they get nothing until the end.
Of course, the above is my common sense expectation of what should happen - it's not necessarily what is in the written contract with SE, and therein lies the grey area for us speculators. Best leave it to the lawyers, but it would be nice if they are talking together and move a bit faster. Every week that goes by I assume more SE clients are in the same dilemma - pay or not? Risk losing deposits already paid or the whole thing? Thankfully the season is at its end, so its easing off.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowjoe wrote: |
Instructors working for SE would be the worst hit - I bet they get nothing until the end.
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Instructors employed directly by SE, like myself, have received nothing. In France or Italy, where they have to employ the local ski schools they will have had to pay up front. That week has cost me about £600 all in to work like a Trojan.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Basoid wrote: |
| Instructors employed directly by SE, like myself, have received nothing. In France or Italy, where they have to employ the local ski schools they will have had to pay up front. That week has cost me about £600 all in to work like a Trojan. |
Other ski instructors tell me that they get paid as Chris Reynard is more sympathetic! Keep phoning texting and hassling - you have the choice of going to small claims court as you are contracted by him [parents like don't]
Really easy to do use this link. http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| snowjoe wrote: |
| Sorry Greg, but I think you are 10yrs and 25 thread pages behind? |
Sort of. My post was admittedly a bit subtle. If you read the link in my post and have a look at the link in my sig, you'll realise that I know a little bit more than most about Mr. Reynard.
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Very subtle. So you acted for the DTI when he was disqualified as a director!
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Now I see it. Presumably he did well enough last time to do the same again. In fact I think he will go for bust and a big exit this time and I don't think you will see him surface back in this business. At least not as a front man/Director. I just hope the law can unravel the money trails and get as much back as possible. Which begs the question - can the law get money from 3rd parties that SE has paid? I assume not unless they can be shown to be linked to SE or CR. So if his wife takes a 6 figure pay-off for standing down as Director, can the law recover that? If he transfers monies to other businesses of his, can they be recovered?
It seems the defence at the moment is that SE doesn't owe any refunds, on the grounds that SE intended to continue with the contracts and it was the schools that terminated, thus forfeiting full payment! The sooner the lawyers can sort that out the better. Proof positive that possession is 9/10ths of the law!
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| snowjoe wrote: |
| In fact I think he will go for bust and a big exit this time and I don't think you will see him surface back in this business. At least not as a front man/Director. |
I think it's significant he is now 69 rather than 59.
BTW, anyone here got a nicely funded retirement plan?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowjoe, normally recovery of money is limited to the assets of a limited company however if it can be shown that directors or others deliberately abused the system then money can theoretically be recovered from them
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noskitrip, any update from any one about when you will get your money back ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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D G Orf, It has been stated on here that the company was Reynard T/A SE
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rayscoops, however he also did eventually supply data for last year for SE Ltd I believe, maybe in anticipation of going bust this year ? Who knows but I'm sure he will try to convince the various authorities and assuming it gets there the court, that it was SE Ltd that went bust.
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D G Orf, all depends I suppose which entity the schools contracted with. If it was not SE Ltd then they will have no call on that companies assets whether they go bust or not
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You know it makes sense.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| noskitrip, any update from any one about when you will get your money back ? |
No update as no one has got money back.
To my knowledge most contracted with Reynard trading as SE not SE Ltd.
On the SE website Brian Snook who is long gone is still listed and Brain Reilly too - also gone.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Has anyone a PDF copy of the SE brochure please?
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Poster: A snowHead
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greg66,
Greg - skiinglegal was previously stating that no one lost a penny from the collapse of Howglen. I looked at the receivers report, which stated that it did not expect the unsecured creditors of c£250k would receive any payment - and looking at all the subsequent payment and receipts reports from Coopers that I could find it does not appear that there were any payments to the original unsecured records. Are you able to confirm whether or not the unsecured creditors of Howglen were repaid in full or not? It would be helpful to know since I suspect that Reynard and hos friends are probably trying to rewrite history at the present time.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowjoe,
If Reynard is made bankrupt since he cannot fulfil his debts from Reynard trading as SE - then the Liquidator has all sorts of powers to recover monies/assets transferred elsewhere.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| noskitrip wrote: |
| Basoid wrote: |
| Instructors employed directly by SE, like myself, have received nothing. In France or Italy, where they have to employ the local ski schools they will have had to pay up front. That week has cost me about £600 all in to work like a Trojan. |
Other ski instructors tell me that they get paid as Chris Reynard is more sympathetic! Keep phoning texting and hassling - you have the choice of going to small claims court as you are contracted by him [parents like don't]
Really easy to do use this link. http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm. |
Really, I'm told that nothing is happening as "refinancing" is underway.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Basoid wrote: |
| noskitrip wrote: |
| Basoid wrote: |
| Instructors employed directly by SE, like myself, have received nothing. In France or Italy, where they have to employ the local ski schools they will have had to pay up front. That week has cost me about £600 all in to work like a Trojan. |
Other ski instructors tell me that they get paid as Chris Reynard is more sympathetic! Keep phoning texting and hassling - you have the choice of going to small claims court as you are contracted by him [parents like don't]
Really easy to do use this link. http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index.htm. |
Really, I'm told that nothing is happening as "refinancing" is underway. |
I would have my claim submitted and in front of a judge quicker than you could say 'refinancing'. I would think with all the schools that paid up and then didn't go on their trips, the company is awash with money. Unless CR is refinancing his personal accounts with the company money and just wants to spirit away as much as possible before the court orders start rolling in.
Providing you have written to Reynard and/or Skiing Europe demanding payment, you should submit your claim to the court immediately.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Stephen101 wrote: |
greg66,
Greg - skiinglegal was previously stating that no one lost a penny from the collapse of Howglen. I looked at the receivers report, which stated that it did not expect the unsecured creditors of c£250k would receive any payment - and looking at all the subsequent payment and receipts reports from Coopers that I could find it does not appear that there were any payments to the original unsecured records. Are you able to confirm whether or not the unsecured creditors of Howglen were repaid in full or not? It would be helpful to know since I suspect that Reynard and hos friends are probably trying to rewrite history at the present time. |
Who is skiinglegal?
From what I recall, there was no claim that unsecureds had been paid off post receivership. Whether they were or not, i just don't know. I don't remember the company having much in the way of assets to realise (not surpising, given the type of business).
It is possible that a successor company made "distress" payments to key suppliers who were left unpaid by Howglen, in order to keep commercial relationships alive; that sometimes happens.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 26-04-11 21:29; edited 1 time in total
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I was just begining to lose interest in this thread, when suddenly it's got very interesting again.
Annoyingly I still can't get confirmation about some of the schools alleged to have been involved, without calling them directly, which seems rather nosey...
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Ah. I see. Interesting to note that parts of that post mirror what Mr Reynard is recorded as having told the BBC here: http://www.southwestbusiness.co.uk/homepagetest/Anger-schools-ski-trips/article-3431933-detail/article.html
It is right that Mr Reynard appealed against both against being disqualified at all and against the period of disqualification. Mr Justice Blackburne reduced his period of disqualification to 5.5 years. One of his findings was that as a matter of law a director's conduct in the course of the disqualification proceedings (including his giving of evidence) was not relevant conduct in disqualification proveedings. This ran contrary to an earlier case, and was a point of general application, so the DTI appealed to the CA. The CA did not upset the result (so Mr Reynard did strictly win that appeal) but reversed Mr Justice Blackburne on the point of law.
There was no expert evidence; I have no idea what that is all about.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Basoid wrote: |
Really, I'm told that nothing is happening as "refinancing" is underway. |
I'm told this morning that SE is up and running and taking booking and deposits for 2012!
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Is it possible 'being up and running' is a good thing? It would mean that a new insurance bond has to be in place - isn't that a legal requirement? Website mentions 'Go Travel' insurance now, which is Drakefield Insurance Services Ltd. Is that the same as a Bond?
It might mean that the cashflow hole isn't so bad? The current schools affected will just have to follow the legal process and fight their cases. I still don't understand what the implications are if trading as 'CR trading as SE' or 'SE Ltd' Perhaps he needs longer to transfer the trading to Limited Company status before going 'bust'? Maybe that would be when or if the legal processes finally hit home. But better for you/us (those currently affected) for the Company to keep going, despite the scepticism.
I feel uneasy now debating SE. Its a one sided debate here and we simply don't have all the facts. It started out of needing a forum to rant, get answers, and warn others but now I think its time to let the schools make their cases and good luck to the parents who lost out so far. Perhaps folks can update as they hear progress, if legally allowed to comment.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| daveyladboy wrote: |
The skiing europe/Chris Reynard totaliser now stands at:
February Half Term
Reading Grammar School - 100 children - £90,000 (www.getreading.co.uk)
Tavistock College - 120 children - £90,000 (BBC News)
Tonbridge Grammar School - 33 children - c£27,000? (www.thisiskent.co.uk)
Easter Hols
Meole Brace School - 38 children - £41,000 (www.shropshirestar.com)
Mount Grace School - c120 children? - c£90,000? (this thread)
Beechwood Park School - c38 children? - c£35,000? (this thread)
Purbeck - 42 children - £33,600 (BBC News)
Ferndown - c28 children? - c£22,400 (BBC News/This thread)
St Helena School, Colchester £12,000 (http://teachersupport.info)
Girvan Academy - ?
Salisbury Cathedral School - ?
Then factor in unpaid staff, coach companies, lift passes, ski hire & hotels from the trips that did get away.
Approx (at least) £431,000 and counting...
It's been widely reported that 10 or 12 schools were booked to go away at Easter - if you know of any schools missing from the list, please post some details. |
* Missing from Feb half term:
- Alcester Grammar School- £12,000 coaches and 9,000 Euro's Hotel/Food Approx.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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hls1, thank you, any more info would be appreciated.
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snowjoe, I want this thread to be visible to anyone Googling Chris Reynard or Skiing Europe in the future. I respect that those more closely involved cant or dont wish to post.
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You know it makes sense.
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| snowjoe wrote: |
| I feel uneasy now debating SE. Its a one sided debate here and we simply don't have all the facts. It started out of needing a forum to rant, get answers, and warn others but now I think its time to let the schools make their cases and good luck to the parents who lost out so far. Perhaps folks can update as they hear progress, if legally allowed to comment. |
I don't feel uneasy at all - he's clearly a very deceptive business person with a pretty shoddy track record...hopefully he'll get eaten by a marmot the next time he's on an inspection trip...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowjoe,
If Chris Reynard really has found the half a million plus to pay off his creditors then it is of course a good thing - but let us not forget that he has ruined the holidays of several hundred children and for that he needs to be held accountable. On the other hand - there must be doubts as to who would provide him with the necessary finance unless he has some pretty good collateral. And of course the one thing we have yet to see is any of the claims being brought to court and/or any indication that Reynard is trying to clear his debts out of court. On other theory might be that Reynard is trying to string things as long as possible - since the longer financial collapse is delayed, then the longer it will be before the authorities start to look into a prosecution for fraudulent trading, which carries a maximum prison sentence of 10 years.
Anyone who has seen financial collapses/bankruptcies will know that a lot of funny games are often played in the final days.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| snowjoe, I want this thread to be visible to anyone Googling Chris Reynard or Skiing Europe in the future. I respect that those more closely involved cant or dont wish to post. |
and this particular thread does not come up on a Google search for Skiing Europe or Chris Reynard.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| snowjoe wrote: |
I feel uneasy now debating SE. Its a one sided debate here ...... |
It's not one-sided at all. We had one defensive posting from skilegals 
But more seriously, perhaps it is one-sided because in face of the fact of all those schools being let down and all the money they paid out being unaccounted for, there isn't much to be said for the other side.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| snowjoe, I want this thread to be visible to anyone Googling Chris Reynard or Skiing Europe in the future. I respect that those more closely involved cant or dont wish to post. |
and this particular thread does not come up on a Google search for Skiing Europe or Chris Reynard. |
Yes, and one person's Google search isn't the same as another (I get this thread bottom of page one on Google for search term "Chris Reynard"). Google tries to figure out what you like so if, for example, you often tap in "Chris Reynard" just to check where that search term ranks, Google will assume you like "Chris Reynard" and will present it higher up than it is in reality - I suspect Shimmy sees it in position 1 . Companies often think they are ranking well on Google because they keep checking on their company name. You need better tools to establish what the world sees when they tap in "Chris Reynard" or "Skiing Europe".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
subsequently founded and ran Ski Europe, which he eventually sold and which has now become PGL Ski Europe |
thats what the SE website says today 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sorry sunnbuel, what is the significance of this? That is one of the trading names of PGL Travel Ltd as far as i can see:
http://www.abta.com/find-a-holiday/destination-explorer/2853
Perhaps the slight deviation from fact is for Reynard to say his company became PGL Ski Europe. According to the PGL website, it expanded its skiing operation through a number of acquisitions . But in the context of what is going on, that is is insignificant. If Skiing Europe is still trading it is making false claims on its website since the "Meet the Team" page includes those who have left.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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ccl, I think the legal identity of whom one contracts with is quite important, after all you would not want to litigate against a company and get to court only only to find out it was the wrong company (but similar name) and your case has been chucked out !
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| Stephen101 wrote: |
snowjoe,
If Chris Reynard really has found the half a million plus to pay off his creditors then it is of course a good thing - but let us not forget that he has ruined the holidays of several hundred children and for that he needs to be held accountable...
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I don't doubt that there are hundreds of thousands of pounds being disputed and remain unpaid until resolved through the courts. SE will keep trading until such time as the courts decide which schools (hopefully all) are entitled to refunds (plus costs, damages?) at which time 'CR trading as SE' may well claim bankruptcy having done all he can to absorb/ringfence all his assets....maybe including into 'SE Limited' ? I wonder if new business is being contracted with SE Limited to separate it from the current liabilities? Can anyone check? That might be how SE Limited is being 're-financed' - with 'money' from CR?
Very good description from someone about how Google works. Its worse because I think most schools/people will google 'skiing europe' and both those words are so generic as to result in hundreds of pages of results, with nothing to do with the company. A bad choice of company name if you want to be googled.
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Ah but a good choice if trying to avoid being found
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ccl, the significance being the tangled web this man leaves in his wake rayscoops expands the point well.
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snowjoe,
If Reynard is moving business between himself and SE Ltd - he will also need to move his bonding/insurance (which he is required to have by law) and my guess is that any insurance company/bank offering insurance/bonding will be pretty fussy about their requirements. My guess is that the sort of refinancing Reynard may be looking at is trying to take deposits from those booking holidays next year. Any letterhead/invoice/contyract from SE is required to state who is conductingthe business under the Business Names Act - the brochure certainly didn't make it clear, but I don't think that such matters or having accurate brochure details (which is also a legal requirement) have been high on Reynard's prioorities in the past.
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FAQ
