Changes to SCGB Reps' Off-Piste Rules

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... or aircraft carrier

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The change in the Ski Club Repping rules for off-piste is directly related to the death of a member of the SkiClub, a snowboarder, although he was walking when he fell, and who was being 'guided' by a Ski Club Rep. I will say no more as there is a trial pending against the Rep at the moment for involuntary homicide, a decision taking by the presiding local Swiss judge after preliminary enquiries into the accident. The Rep has appealed. I knew the snowboarder very well.

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lemanieg, are you a Ski Club member ? If so perhaps you could give the membership the info. you have on the Ski Club chatroom ? Thanks.

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Trial pending. Full disclosure SHOULD surely come from the SkiClub (Counsel) themselves to members when appropriate as a sign of trust and openess? For the moment they have closed ranks for 'legal reasons' they say. I do not wish to prejudice any legal trial either way, and feel I am not able to discuss openly any information I have at present. I hope the Ski Club will tell their members more, especially if there has been a change in on-snow ski policy which affects members, at the appropriate time. They have been extremely reticent in communicating with me to date. I received the 'change to Off Piste policy letter' in just the smae way as all Members. I have been left to continually chase them for news, and to make my own legal enquiries, and have been told they are surprised that I should expect to be kept informed. It is not how I would have expected an impartial party to act.

After all it is free

lemanieg, Sorry for the loss of your friend. But, in this instance, the Ski Club is NOT an "impartial party" (even if, as looks implicit in your post, it has not been joined in the Swiss proceedings.)

lemanieg, I don't see the SCGB as an impartial party. Quite apart from the support they give to the rep him/herself, they may also face consequences should there be a trial and a conviction. So I would be very surprised if their insurance company permitted them to be more open that they already have been.

The loss of your friend must cause you great sadness; you have my sympathy.

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Of course I have understood that point, but they could at least have said that in an open letter to me from the beginning couldn't they, rather than nothing? And is it really the correct position for the Club to be in as well given that they rely on their Members as much as their Reps?

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lemanieg, I can't see there is a 'correct' position unfortunately. My guess is that if the club acted without the explicit authority of its insurance company, it could face unlimited liability for any claims in the event of a conviction. I stress this is just my guess, though. If my guess is right, then it can't enter into individual correspondence. Legal constraints inhibit civilised behaviour in the modern world; for example most car insurance companies forbid a motorist to admit liability in the event of an accident. I can see it's distressing for you, though.

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lemanieg, I don't see how they can say anything to anybody about this other than what they've said. There's the rep's defence to consider as well as any future civil case against the club.

lemanieg, it's never correct to fail to answer letters at all, if you're saying that's what the Club did. However, what they are actually in a position to disclose will, as noted by achilles, be determined by their insurers: I think that the majority of members would understand that and not question it.

You know it makes sense.

Many months ago I also heard more details than you give above about the accident from a friend who is a rep, but felt it was privilleged information I shouldn't pass on. I gathered that most reps knew. I'm really unsure what harm it would do, but perhaps I'll keep on keeping quiet.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

snowball, it would be difficult to think of a comment more likely to whet the appetite of the ghoulish (including me Embarassed

) for information! I guess I shall have to contain my curiosity until I next come across some reps, which will be fairly soon.

A snowHead

Yes, but most Members are not the immediate family of the Snowboarder are they? Would you all really expect to hear no comment, not even a standard legal letter setting out their responsabilities in such a case, from the SkiClub if one of your family had died suddenly skiing with them? I think the SkiClub do need to review their set up because in cases like this should they automatically support one side over another?That makes them impartial from the start. I trust that the Swiss judge, who has far more details than any of us about the incident, understands the SkiClub set up, and also is experienced enough to know where to draw the line of responsability between the snowboarder and the Rep...it is not clear cut in this incident.. there has never been any suggestion of a case against the SkiClub from any party involved in this matter, I believe they have rules in place that are the best that could be implemented in doing what they do in a dangerous sport, it is their appalling lack of communication which I find unprofessional and insensitive. Thank you all for commenting, and as this subject still upsets me if I think about it too much, I will leave it there.. I just thought it important that SkiClub members understand why the off-piste Rules had changed as it affects all of us.

A snowHead

lemanieg,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

lemanieg, thank you for that - you have given way more information and clarification that has come out of the SCGB even under intense questioning at the AGM. At the AGM the shutters were so heavily down that they would say only that about £50k (of members' money) had been spent to date (32k in the financial year under report and 19k since), but would not say
a) whether there was a criminal or civil case being considered
b) who was bringing the case
c) even whether any proceedings had been started or not!!!!
It was only under the most intense pressure that it was revealed that the civil/criminal distinction is not clear in Swiss law, that no proceedings had yet been started, and about half the spend had been on "trauma counselling". Even given sub-judice considerations I find this level of non-communication absolutely ridiculous. Some of the information about what happened (similar to what you've posted above) did however come out in post-meeting discussions.

Thank you for your input here, and deepest sympathies.

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GrahamN,

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Just wondered if anyone knows how the new off-piste rules are working in reality, now that the reps are out in resort?

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Are any of the SCGB reps qualified mountain guides? What sort of skiing and mountaineering qualifications do the SCGB reps and course leaders have?

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DB, http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/reps/becomearep/repscourse.asp
- and nearby pages give the general idea. Many Reps have done other teaching and or mountain qualifications too - but they are not allowed to teach as you are merely joining a group of skiers - in practice I ask other members of the group for tips if they are skiing something that I am having more difficulty with!
All courses and off-piste holidays run by Freshtracks are taught / led by fully qualified instructors/guides as described in and appropriate to each holiday's details. A Rep will still be on an instruction/guided holiday acting as group co-ordinator and, usually, as back marker for the skiing day.
The Reps also provide a social hub in resort / for the holiday group - and certainly have a lot more stamina than I do Skullie

stephen buck, had a great holiday, skiing on and off piste with 2 Reps. The off piste was largely near the pistes with a few known itineries thrown in. Doubtless, if there had been any new snow, we would have considered hiring a guide for a day a bit further afield.

After all it is free

Scrumpy,

Thanks. The way I understand it they go on a course but don't need any formal qualifications in either ski teaching or mountaincraft.

What about the course leaders what skiing qualifications do they have?
When the reps go off piste with groups does the rep have a transceiver, shovel and probe? Do the other people in the group also have this equipment and a knowledge of how to use it?

Talking to a rep I gather that (for those who know Tignes) a good example of the sort of thing that I ski regualrly and reps used to and will not be able to in future - is the Chardonnay couloir and big bowl beyond.

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DB, I think the questions about training and who does it were dealt with some pages ago in this thread, but cannot be certain. I believe the trainers are qualified and well respected.

When going off piste, the rep has a shovel transceiver and probe, and ensures that all skiers have transceivers, and at least a couple have shovels and probes, usually including the back-marker. On off-piste club organised holidays, everyone has all that gear. Actually my experience has been that quite a lot of those coming to ski off piste with a resort rep have all the gear already. Proper transceiver checks are done, and reps I have skied with have also done some transceiver technique training for those skiing with them as well. I am not saying that this applies to all. I have also been with reps who have dug pits, shown snow structure to us etc etc. But I realise this is by no means a substitute for doing a proper avalanche awareness course.

Probe technique is a different matter, and the one time a guide tried to teach us what the difference in feeling between a body and a rock was at the end of a probe. I was a complete failure at this. Very easy and quick to go hunting for transceivers in plastic bags. Doing a proper rescue simulation is a different matter, and I will have to do this properly sometime.

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stoatsbrother, Transceivers are worn by ALL on all Freshtracks holidays nowadays, the Rep and at least one other have shovel & probe as you say.
DB, As I said before - all courses and off piste holidays are led by FULLY Qualified guides and instructors - the actual qualifications will vary according to country and nationality - the actualpeople are usually specified in the holiday particulars eg. http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skifreshtracks/holiday.asp?intHolidayID=1560
snowball, At the AGM, it was stated that no specific routes or ares had been ruled "out of bounds"

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Not yet but the rep told me that the general rules they have been given would, for example, rule out that route. Do you know that bowl? You have to climb (walk) up to get into it.

You know it makes sense.

DB, it may be painful but i suggest you read the first few pages of this thread where this has been discussed at great length

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

DB, You appear to be being very selective in your reading / quotiing of the links .

J F is NOT the instructor / mountain guide -the "Instructors are
Yann Westercamp and ISIA Diane Moreau ISIA" and JF is the Ski Club Rep / co-ordinator for the holiday. Yann and Diane are French and live near Flaine all year as far as know.

Please also edit JF's name to initials - he did not ask to be discussed on a public forum - I had picked that holiday link purely as it is the first uncompleted off piste holiday on the list

A snowHead

A snowHead

Levitt, Also - the Reps are group leaders - all the Ski Club info particularly says that you are resposible for your own safety on the mountain - the Reps provide a way of skiing with someone a lot more experienced at finding their way around than I or my friends are so I see a lot more of any resort if I ski with a Rep. - They do though have a lot more training than Tour operator reps. - one of whom once put me in a rather dangerous position by not considering the abilities of his group as a whole and going on terrain outside his remit ............. but that's another story

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I'll just pitch in at this point to say that SCGB members will see the issues reported in more depth in the minutes of the 2007 AGM, which took place six weeks ago. I think these minutes are imminent, from what the Chairman of the meeting said.

My own position on this, as someone whose membership of the Club goes back 45 years and having served on Council, is that I'm primarily concerned with the Club's legal and financial exposure. There's relatively little case history on volunteer leaders in accident situations, but there is some. The Club's position as an increasingly commercial operator (i.e. members paying for services), with reps receiving 'benefits in kind', means that the Club's liability cannot necessarily be indemnified by arguing that members of a group ski at their own risk behind amateur leaders. Leadership is clearly what's on offer - the rep goes first and makes the terrain and route decisions on the basis of the group's ability.

Historically, reps were deployed by the Club to recruit new members in ski resorts that were extremely keen to attract British skiers. They were the elite skiers of their day (British instructors and guides didn't exist) and the Club evolved a bronze-silver-gold test system to bring all recreational skiers (who wanted to do the tests) up to high levels of proficiency. The best SCGB reps were, in many cases, in a class of their own.

In the 21st century, the SCGB repping system must be sustainable, in terms of cost and cost-effectiveness, to represent its members' best interests. Alternatively, the Club can develop other exclusive benefits to sustain its membership base.

The turning point, historically, was the early 1960s. This was the time that ski tour-operating really began to boom, Scottish skiing began to explode (metaphorically) and BASI was established. The SCGB was not strongly represented in Scotland and the development of instructor training by-passed the Club. Had the Club (which at the time lost its role as governing body of British ski racing) immersed itself in 'domestic skiing' and the cause of instructor training it would probably have 'become BASI'. Thus the Club would have emulated the Royal Yachting Association and other bodies.

We have to deal with situations as they are, and I suspect that off-piste repping is not sustainable. Eddie the Legal is swooping and pecking, and the SCGB may become its prey.

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Does anyone have any feedback this season from, say, Argentiere, where most reps go simply for the off-piste ski-ing?

I imagine they must be very frustrated if they were given a slot there, and then were subsequently told that they must now stay on or close to the piste.

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There's nothing to stop the highest-performing reps becoming guides or high-grade instructors, if off-piste leadership is their passion.

The legal climate is forcing the issue of who's allowed to do what, where.

When I began skiing, runs weren't marked except by other skiers' tracks, pistes weren't groomed. The idea that anyone would sue anybody else for a ski accident would have been a mad fantasy.

Things are going in one direction ... and it's always best to be ahead of the game.

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After all it is free

In deference to most ISIA-grade instructors, I'd probably trust them to take me into most off-piste terrain. These are seriously impressive professionals.

A lot of the off-piste I used to do was in St Anton with the top ski school classes, who ski off-piste all day. I didn't even bother to enquire if the instructors were guide-level. From memory, I think the Austrians have a special grade of instructor who can take groups well off the beaten track.

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