 Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| I suspect that the image of the comfortably-housed supermarket worker with plenty of time and money for skiing and boozing is a bit optimistic. A rusty camper van with a dog sounds more like it. |
Depends what you mean by comfortably housed. You can rent a nice room in a shared (one or two people) but 'good quality' flat here for under €400 a month, a friend has a really nice garconniere for €550 inc bills. Season pass about €400 (if you're living and working here, you get resident's discount). Minimum (well, standard for shop work, I'm not sure there is a 'set' minimum wage here) wage for 38.5 hours a week (though many places offer 20 hours a week) is around €1400-1500 a month, but you get 14 monthly salaries a year.
You might struggle to buy a house/run a car/raise a family on that (though that's hardly a priority for most season workers), but it's easily enough to live and ski (and drink) on. I don't go out drinking very often anymore, but I only work 20 hours a week (can't do more as my German course would get in the way), manage to ski quite a lot, and keep myself in nice shiny toys (I'm lucky in that my gf owns the flat though, so I rather than rent I just pay half the bills/service charges/etc). Financially I'm definitely in a better place than friends doing seasons with TO's. Not where I want to be in 10 years time, but much more sustainable than long term TO work.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 21-02-13 23:03; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
t's easily enough to live and ski (and drink) on
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rather than rent I just pay half the bills/service charges/etc
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But it isn't is it? If you didn't have a GF and tyou had to find somewhere to live you'd have to work ful time which would leave little time to ski.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
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t's easily enough to live and ski (and drink) on
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rather than rent I just pay half the bills/service charges/etc
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But it isn't is it? If you didn't have a GF and tyou had to find somewhere to live you'd have to work ful time which would leave little time to ski. |
Not necessarily. Plenty of people share seasonal accommodation in groups which often brings the cost right down.
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kat.ryb, that still comes to just over €200 a month. I could rent a room in a not-so-nice-but-better-than-seasonnaire-quality place for €300 a month. I'd still be able to live, eat and ski, but I'd have to do without the toys and planned ski trips further afield. Still be (just about) better off than a TO's chalet host though - for about half the hours of work they have to do. There are also lots of morning/evening jobs like sorting post/parcels advertised that are fulltime (38.5 hours a week here), or approaching it, yet wouldn't cut into ski time. Bar work too. The work (we start an hour before it opens) hours of the shop I work in are 8am-6:30pm Mon-Sat (8am-8:30pm Friday), so even working fulltime there that would still leave at least 3 full ski days a week. Plus 5 weeks of holiday (maybe more for fulltime workers) and public holidays.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 21-02-13 23:01; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
davidof, the majority of people living in those vans don't work, at least not seriously. They are the French equivalent of perhaps our trustafarians, people who have made a lifestyle choice to live in a van and wear hippy clothes. The French word for them is toffeurs, the verlans for fêteurs, which says it all.
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I suggest you go and share your thoughts with the Trusafarians then. I'm sure the friends of Thomas who worked the winter as a perchman on the ski lifts of la Clusaz would be interested
http://www.ledauphine.com/haute-savoie/2013/01/03/la-clusaz-deux-saisonniers-perissent-carbonises-dans-l-incendie-de-leur-camion |
Oh right, because people who don't live in vans never die from carbon monoxide poisoning or gas leaks. 
If the French have developed a word to describe the tribes of van-dwellers I think you do me too much credit saying those are 'my thoughts'.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 21-02-13 23:08; edited 1 time in total
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Quote: |
t's easily enough to live and ski (and drink) on
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| Quote: |
rather than rent I just pay half the bills/service charges/etc
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But it isn't is it? If you didn't have a GF and tyou had to find somewhere to live you'd have to work ful time which would leave little time to ski. |
So get a houseshare, like everyone in London has to do.
pam_w, a friend working in the Méribel Spar a few seasons ago earnt enough on minimum wage to go in on a flatshare right in the centre of town, and still have a great slope and social life. TO slavery should not be the norm, and as I stated elsewhere it doesn't make for fair competition against local business.
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double post
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 15-04-13 9:26; edited 1 time in total
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double post
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 15-04-13 9:26; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
TO slavery should not be the norm, and as I stated elsewhere it doesn't make for fair competition against local business
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I agree, and have stated more than once that TOs should just recruit the best candidates on the open market (who may or may not be British) and pay them the local going rate. Until and unless the French authorities force them to comply with French law they are likely to continue to take advantage of the apparently huge number of eager candidates for the slavery option. Many of them bright guys and gals, with a fair bit of drive and resilience, who could probably get a decent job in the UK but much prefer the life of a saisonnaire.
So it can't be that awful, can it? 
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
TO slavery should not be the norm, and as I stated elsewhere it doesn't make for fair competition against local business
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I agree, and have stated more than once that TOs should just recruit the best candidates on the open market (who may or may not be British) and pay them the local going rate. Until and unless the French authorities force them to comply with French law they are likely to continue to take advantage of the apparently huge number of eager candidates for the slavery option. Many of them bright guys and gals, with a fair bit of drive and resilience, who could probably get a decent job in the UK but much prefer the life of a saisonnaire.
So it can't be that awful, can it? |
What makes you think they don't? The whole recruitment process doesn't seem like much of a closed shop to me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
So get a houseshare, like everyone in London has to do.
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Yeah, obviously. But you would still need to pay half RENT as well as bills and service charge, all of which would be more becasue you would be sharing a two bed apt rather than sharing a bed in a one bed apt.
I don't think anything will change with the TO chalet market, sure they will find ways around it. Many people speak fondly of their season as chalet workers. 98% of those people wouldn't have gone and done a season if they had to sort a job once out there, fund a deposit for a flat/room, find their own accomodation etc etc. Working as a chalet bitch is a low risk way to enjoy a season. Pretty hard to do without some savings and knowledge of the language where as you can just rock up and go for a UK TO.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Spending a season living in a hovel, getting drunk 3 times a week and skiing your heart out in return for working hard for a few hours a day is not a basic human right. |
No, but it could be argued that not being allowed to, with the cooperation of a willing employer, is an abrogation of a human right.
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Thinking about it it can't be any worse than living in a truck at truckstops . . . 
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You know it makes sense.
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Quote: |
So get a houseshare, like everyone in London has to do.
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Yeah, obviously. But you would still need to pay half RENT as well as bills and service charge, all of which would be more becasue you would be sharing a two bed apt rather than sharing a bed in a one bed apt.
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Maybe should have been more clear, I also pay half of the insurance, building maintenance bills (split between all flats in building), and stuff like that associated with owning, which you wouldn't have to pay if renting. Either way, I could rent a nice enough room to myself somewhere (inc bills) for less than €100 a month more than I pay currently.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I'm with clarky999 on this one. If I can do a season for under €8k without scrimping, then a seasonnaire can easily do a season earning the French minimum wage and working around 20-30 hours a week, leaving plenty of time to ski. It just takes a bit of initiative to arrange accommodation and a job but it is not rocket science.
Someone mentioned earlier on this thread that kids wouldn't do the TO-version season if it wasn't fun. There's no denying that but I think they go the TO route out of convenience and how many of them return for a second or third season using the same model (discounting those who are really only doing a gap year before uni)? If you speak to the more established seasonnaires (those on their second, third seasons), they are almost always independent after having gone the TO route once.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
The whole recruitment process doesn't seem like much of a closed shop to me.
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It might look like a closed shop if you were Slovenian or Romanian. As for abrogation of human rights, that could be said of just about all employment law.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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TBH working for a TO is exactly the same idea as going on holiday with a TO vs independently. Might cost you a bit more (ie not be paid as much and work harder) and not be as satisfying but it's less complicated and less risky. Also not mentioned yet are tips, a good host or rep (bar crawl money etc) could easily average over €100 a week - something you might also have working as independent chalet staff but not really from a "local" job.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But getting back to the original thread. Is this a summary of this whole episode:
- French authorities aware for a while about unqualified hosting and leading.
- They want to apply an existing law, that all people being paid to be responsible for others on the slopes should be qualified.
- They think that UK companies, and others, might not play things as quite by the book abroad as the do in the UK.
- They catch a UK company doing it and get ESF to support the proceedings.
- A load of anti-french daily mailites on here get all up in arms about the dastardly French protecting their own. A good excuse to have a bit of fun stirring.
- A load of people who have no friends and need to buy psuedo friends to ski with get all het up about laws being applied.
- The court case shows that a TO exploited it's staff and paid below the minimun wage for the people it caught. (Something that would be treated very seriously if it happened in the UK)
- The court case also upheld that guides/hosts etc being paid to help people around ski resorts do need to be qualified - as appears to be the case in some other areas.
- Lots of people on here still whinging that they can't use exploited below minimum wage 'bellas' to be their pseudo friends.
Is that it? End of threads. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Is that it? End of threads. |
Not a chance! I saw the horse twitch, so there's some flogging left to do.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| I'm with clarky999 There's no denying that but I think they go the TO route out of convenience and how many of them return for a second or third season using the same model (discounting those who are really only doing a gap year before uni)? If you speak to the more established seasonnaires (those on their second, third seasons), they are almost always independent after having gone the TO route once. |
/\ /\ This.
I know lots of seasonaires, about 5 or 6 who of which work/ed for TO's. Since the beginning of the season, 1 has gone home, and 2 have left the TO's to work in bars and moved in with friends.
Every other seasonaire that I know work in bars or for transport companies and they have a far better experience, these are the guys that return year on year to do the same or similar jobs.
As for the living comfortably on £60 a week on TO's pay.....not when you paying £5/6 a pint, i reckon about 10 pints and a kebab and your broke.
Some resorts differ from others, but in cham locals/seasonairres might get a bit off and a few shots etc from mates in bars, but its still expensive.
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Surely all they have to do is call them all "interns" and then they won't have to pay them at all, or am I missing something?
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Its not exclusively the TO's that treat people like crap, but personally I'd like to see more people being treated fairly and paid accordingly. If that means that holiday prices increase so be it.
A guy I know got sacked from a local chalet company last week (he did do something wrong, but not sackable IMO)
he'd been in cham since november and in that time had 4 days off to go skiing.....getting paid the holy grail of £60 a week....not exactly living the dream...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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They also have to buy clothes, goggles and other accessories not provided by a TO. I guess at the end of the first month they might have enough for a pair of Oakleys if they don't go out much, but the first month is Christmas and New Year Eve so saving is pretty unlikely.
It's also assuming they don't work for a TO which withholds a portion of their pay each week as a bond (say 20%), to be paid on completion of the season!
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| eddiethebus wrote: |
| ..... but more because the French culture really doesnt lend itself to service with a smile...... |
I must have been exceptionally lucky with the French staff I've met at Les Deux Alpes, Tignes and Serre Chevalier in recent years, then.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
he'd been in cham since november and in that time had 4 days off to go skiing
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my son signed up as a cook with a well known quite top of the range chalet company in Val D'Isere and went out for the training in early December. In the first two weeks they'd had no days off. He figured that if they had no time off before any guests arrived they'd have less chance afterwards. He also didn't like being told what to cook and how to cook it, so he told the TO they could stuff their job and went freelance. It was a big risk (he borrowed money from me to pay up front for a small apartment) but worked out well in the end. January was difficult, low season and all, but he kept at it and got one job cooking lunch each day for a French couple who ran a shop (evidently a very profitable one if they could pay a chef to cook their lunch!). Eventually he was given a job as a trial, with an agency which does staffing for chalets. That was a success, and since then he's done other work for the same company, including one job for a Parisian chalet owner. He gave up the job with the Parisian, who he liked very much, because they were away so much he got bored. He's been working on a research project in Italy for the past few years but did do a week in a chalet in Courchevel 1850 in 2011. He was standing in for someone who had gone sick very suddenly and had to hit the ground running taking over quite a major job with no time to plan, stock up etc. He said the snow was rubbish at the time, and he chose to just devote himself 100% to the cooking instead - it gave him a lot of satisfaction and was a change from the day job, but he wouldn't have bothered for a few bob a week. He was paid 1200 euros for the week and the clients gave him a tip big enough to cover the cost of his rail fare up from Genoa.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles, my thoughts too. Treat service staff in a friendly manner and with a smile and they usually respond in kind. I have seen people scowl at staff and beckon them over with the dreaded finger in the air – the response has usually been understandably surly.
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[quote="achilles"]
| eddiethebus wrote: |
| ..... but more because the French culture really doesnt lend itself to service with a smile...... |
no not really. But at the same time i could give you LOTS of examples of French behaviour that woud be totally unacceptable. Only last night at my OH's place of work one of the local frenchies threatend (physically and verbally) an english girl to the point that she couldnt remain at work and had to go home.
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You know it makes sense.
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What is this nonsense? Has no one ever seen a Brit be threatening/lewd/offensive/grumpy  Why the anecdotal evidence of Russian people or French people being back bottoms? We don't need LOTS of examples of bad behaviour - I'm sure we've all seen bad behaviour with our own eyes in various places, from various people.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Obviously every nationality and culture has traits and people within it that behalf in ways that society could well do without. In my opinion however after living in france for the last few years, I do believe that retail service in the UK is generally delivered with a far more welcoming face than it is in France.
probably getting off topic though
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Poster: A snowHead
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After living in France for the last few years, I genuinely do not believe that retail service in the UK is generally delivered with a far more welcoming face than it is in France. Paris and London = pretty much the same, rural French village and rural UK village = pretty much the same - some lovely/friendly/helpful, some surly/lazy/unhelpful, with the latter kind more prevalent in the cities, which is not surprising at all for various reasons.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There are two sepearate issues with the pay - one regarding French law and the other regarding whether its morally correct to treat poor little seasonnaires as "slaves" for the winter.
On the second point, most people are bright enough to know what they are getting into. I certainly do. This is a way of skiing with the minumum of effort on my behalf and the cheapest way possible. Two big wins. Its the same in the summer industry too - Summer camps for example in the US, hugely popular with the gap year brigade and students - and they dont pay minimum wage either! But then its an oppurtunity to spend 8 weeks in the US generally doing an activity you love for around 10 cents an hour. Ski repping (for me at least) is the same. I'm well aware im paid a pittance. I did my research before taking on a job and found out how much skiing i could do (lots) and what work was required. All this talk of exploitation seems a bit much - shock horror, but people need to take responsibility for their choice of work. 
Whether or not it is compatible with French law is entirely seperate to whether its wrong or right for the TO's to pay so little.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| miranda wrote: |
| After living in France for the last few years, I genuinely do not believe that retail service in the UK is generally delivered with a far more welcoming face than it is in France. Paris and London = pretty much the same, rural French village and rural UK village = pretty much the same - some lovely/friendly/helpful, some surly/lazy/unhelpful, with the latter kind more prevalent in the cities, which is not surprising at all for various reasons. |
we'll just have to agree to dis-agree on that then 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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elbrus55,
I guess both me and albinomountainbadger, were refering to British TO's who have a 90% British client rate in their chalets and godawful club hotels. Hence having good UK staff being a bonus. For a more multicultural client base then obviously having French/Italian with fluent English would be a prferable i suppose.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dorsetboy,
| Quote: |
On the second point, most people are bright enough to know what they are getting into. I certainly do. This is a way of skiing with the minumum of effort on my behalf and the cheapest way possible. Two big wins. Its the same in the summer industry too - Summer camps for example in the US, hugely popular with the gap year brigade and students - and they dont pay minimum wage either! But then its an oppurtunity to spend 8 weeks in the US generally doing an activity you love for around 10 cents an hour. Ski repping (for me at least) is the same. I'm well aware im paid a pittance. I did my research before taking on a job and found out how much skiing i could do (lots) and what work was required. All this talk of exploitation seems a bit much - shock horror, but people need to take responsibility for their choice of work.
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+1
I did the US summer camp thing many moons ago. Still one of the best summers of my life. Did run up £1k on my parents credit card though
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
In my opinion however after living in france for the last few years, I do believe that retail service in the UK is generally delivered with a far more welcoming face than it is in France.
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My French teacher, a French woman who lived here for some years (and is now sadly gone to Australia) used to talk about the differences. She was by no means blind to French faults, or picky about british ones, but she did find it very odd to walk into a shop and not be greeted - either by the shop assistants or other shoppers. she felt the whole shopping experience in France was more social, more human.
I certainly find shopping in France a perfectly pleasant experience (I am especially fond of the butcher in Beaufort who asked me if I was Belgian - I know what the French think about the way Belgians speak French but it was a compliment for me!!).
As for waiters, the French regard being a waiter as a proper career, not just something students do for extra dosh.
Maybe some people find French waiters/shop assistants unfriendly because they don't observe the elementary courtesies?
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| pam w wrote: |
| Maybe some people find French waiters/shop assistants unfriendly because they don't observe the elementary courtesies? |
That is my suspicion...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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yes, i'll give you that, the french certainly do welcome you into there establishments with a smiley face and a hello, more so than the british.
I think to save my sanity though i'm not going to comment any further on this thread, I could go on all day and sight some terrible customer service that we've received over the years from banks, garages, supermarkets and local business's but obviously others have had very different experiences and see things differently.
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There are two garages in my village in the UK - I had rather poor service from one, so have switched to the other, and have been extremely impressed. We had very grouchy non-service from a local garage in France (we needed wheels changed and he was "too busy") but I graunched into another, with what turned out to be a completely frozen handbrake (I know how to avoid that now....) and a lad who was just shutting up for the day opened up again and sorted it out for me. As for British banks - basically shocking. My French Britline account has been exemplary, but they do charge, which the British banks don't.
Swings and roundabouts, I'd say. French small businesses seem more inclined to tell you to take a jump if they don't like the cut of your jib - they will cut off their nose to spite their face sometimes. The enterprise which did the snow clearing on our development had a big argy bargy with the chair of the co-pro, who was an irritating little barrack room lawyer. They just told him he could clear his own snow, repaid that month's cost, and walked off the job. It turned out to be the snowiest March ever and we all cursed many times over.
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FAQ
