Why do we teach skiers to move up and down?

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Masque, I was actually with you on this... wink

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kitenski

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waynos, I am not sure that it is the best idea for everyone because you can pick up bad habits by watching other skiers if you don't have a good understanding of what you are looking at.
I've done it [inner tip lead, leaning back in powder(!), skiing like a banana to get them hips over (lol!)] by

The only thing that corrected my misunderstandings was taking lessons and practice!!!!!! (thanks rab@rar!)

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masque,

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gatecrasher, Sorry, air's a bit thin up on this soap box, slows down the old noggin.

rob@rar, That's fine for taking competent skiers into higher speeds/adverse snow conditions etc. but hardly applicable to introducing movement patterns. I agree wholeheartedly about pointing out good skiing examples on the hill as something to emulate but a racing skier in full flight is hardly a good skier and cannot be a good example of technique for anyone without an already very good grasp of body positioning and mass transference.

Let's face it, a racer at speed is not going to be visible with any subtlety by anyone but a coach or an already skilled skier.

"I'm sure you would he an active and interesting participant on any BASI course" I think I had a reference like that once. . .didn't get the job wink

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rob@rar, I think we're talking at cross purposes, I get the impression that some here are pointing to race technique as example to novice skiers. Yes I can can see, especially in slow motion, how it can benefit you . . . in fact that's pretty much what I was saying but there are relative novices reading this and it's not for the first time a newbie has asked an early skier question and ended up with screeds of racers not quite falling on their asses to emulate. It's counter productive to the thread subject. Thread drift is sometimes to be expected but here it's drifted off into the racing absurd and losing any answer as to 'why do we teach skiers etc.?'

Masque, I agree, all things in moderation.

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rob@rar, maybe I've read it wrongly, or missed something somewhere? I thought he (Kitenski) was saying he was told that about skiing 'in general' (or at least carving).

Edit for missing word.

clarky999, It's ok you weren't alone!

You know it makes sense.

There was a discussion a while back, and I thought that the general consensus was that although Urska Hrovat might be a bloody good world cup slalom skier, she was no shining example for anybody wanting to learn how to ski. She certainly was bobbing up and down in the videos in question. As many pointed out at the time, Christian Mayer gave a far better demo for beginners as he looked so calm and in control (legs pumping, head level, calm down girls). Does that suggest that an uppy downy technique is suited to slalom and that GS upwards requires a more level head, or that every slope you ski in every condition etc.etc.etc.

Popcorn please, make mine salted.

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musher, you cant help the uplift in slalom, ski tail pressure in the turn finish to release is generated in the legs, they cannot absorb the vertical force so the torso rises and rotates along the ski 'X' axis to ready the forward pressure initiating the next turn

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The gates in SL are hit by the shins so the technique is to go out from the body not up and down, well you can but it is slow.

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Cynic, Isn't the gate hit long before the last third of the turn when the tails get pressured? The rise is in the transition.

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Masque, I think that was when Alberto and I were competitive

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GrahamN, Hadnt heard anything post coaching conference but I think there has been a lot of race coaching influences changing how BASI looks at things. Examples being the old BASI short turns being very narrow corridor skiddy checky turns with too much vertical movement seems to be out and has been replaced by cleaner arcs with more lateral movements as per a slalom turn. Or having a very distinct two types of turns for examinations "longs" and "shorts" creating park and riders has been replaced with more situational skiing and blending turn shape and radii during training courses, or changes to the manual with the TIED model replacing EDICT. (all good things in my view and as per how the CSIA is influenced by the latest from the CSCF)

In terms of pressure control while "performance" skiing my view is to try to get as long a leg to start the turn as early as you can... creating pressure and big edge angles at the top of the turn, holding a long outside leg into the fall line and continuing to add as much edge as you can in the bottom of the turn while staying soft to avoid break away and judder but still retainging a long, strong outside leg right up to transition. If you overflex at the knee you are just creating a weaker platform. We are saying the same thing I think and I agree with you and RJS.

Now take this "racing technique" back to teaching intermediate skiers, lets say that they can do parallel turns. Do we tell them the stand up tall to start and then get low to finish or do we try to encourage an extended outside leg so that they get the feel for bigger edge angles and lateral moves ? Flex and extend should be explained less as "up and down" and more "up and over" and then moving towards the turn projecting the body down the hill and into the turn.

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skimottaret, nice and clear, cheers

After all it is free

waynos, with the Ligety video I just get the welsh national anthem - how do I get the supporting text. Puzzled

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rjs, with the short turns and close gates it's difficult to see much more than an aggressive absorption cross-under, when he swings out to the outlier gate you can distinctly see his mass held back as he lets the carve track wind up the tension in his skis behind his boots essentially he is a static key and his skis are a spring turning around it to wind up. If he relaxed to absorb it he'd be straight onto his backside. So instead he holds his body briefly in tension through his core and uses his ski's rebound to assist bringing his torso over and across his skis while they're virtually unweighted and easy to cross-under to position and prepare to begin the next turn. Beautiful to watch the whole body be part of the movement rather than just fast x-under turns where there's little fore-aft mass transfer. Essentially he's performing a wee tail 'ollie' to reduce the time it takes him in transition to set up for the next turn.

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Masque, I posted it because you asked a question about slalom. I don't think you should be looking for anything other than very good cross-under turns but in order to do it quickly enough you do need to flex strongly in the final part of the turn. His core will always be active in keeping his pelvis square to the skis.

My theory is that he is faster because he is able to keep doing cross-under turns slightly longer than anyone else.

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Ok, how about looking at it from a simple point of view, probably a waste of time as the majority will have hit ignore on this thread after the first page. But going back to the basic principle.

Here's my stupid simple approach, probably shoite because I just made it up...

Couldn't we just say that skiing can be compared to...walking? Ok I've gone mad but think about it without getting into the laws of physics for a moment...when we are walking along/running along and go to change direction our natural action is to start the change in direction with a step...."push" from the outside leg...it's mainly a lateral push but can also include a slight "up" movement as well. We almost always step/push away with our outside leg to change direction as It's far more effective than using our inside leg to "pull" the direction change.

With skiing our skis are mostly in constant contact with the snow so we can't really "step" to start the direction change, but we can apply the same "push" as in walking to start it, now which "push" is more effective, a mostly lateral one or a mostly vertical one?

Waits for the guys in white coats...... rolling eyes

gatecrasher, Well, first you have to learnt to walk properly. . . posture, gate, CoMass and the right heels will add a certain 'pertness' to yer bum . . . etc.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Actually . . . I agree, basic turn initiation is just walking backward with gentle big toe pressure . . . and then everyone makes it complicated Toofy Grin

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Masque,

It only gets complicated when you start to think about what you're doing wink

A snowHead

An interesting thread and some well thought out comments. I bow to the superior knowledge and experience being demonstrated here, but it seems to me that the fundamental question that most skiers want answered is "Is there one right way to ski?" - to which the answer surely must be a resounding "No!". Of course, the corollary is asking if there is a wrong way to ski and I guess anything that leaves you out of control or unable to cope would meet that need. I remember my first lesson, at Mt. Hutt in NZ, many, many (too many) years ago, on 2m straight skis that had seen much better days. Much of the talk was about "up and down", "unweighting" etc. I was utterly rubbish at all of it. I didn't really progress until spending a full week with Ali Ross. Love him or loathe him, he was the first to properly explain the physics of skiiing and also to demonstrate how the ski is specifically designed to turn. In his view, the up and down movements are the result of the change in edge and angulation and the resultant reaction to the forces being generated. They are not, per se, a goal in themselves.

Now, I'm going to be a bit of an apostate here and state that I don't think that is the entire answer either. When with Warren Smith in Verbier, we were taught a lot of technique with regard to using the whole hip to ankle region - solid central core, correct weight distribution, using the feet to initiate when needed etc. Essentially, you don't have to carve every turn - an understanding that was, to me, a great relief. Phil Smith (have I got that right?) at Snoworks talks predominantly about "pushing snow", saying that if you can move it you can ski it - and is very keen to dispel any notion of the correct style, rather focussing on enjoyment and control.

Are they all correct? I rather think so, it's just that we need to get the basics right, including the snowplough and the side slip (they give you the confidence that you can always get down) and then find the mix that works for us. I'm speaking here of recreational skiers, of course - you professional chaps and chapesses will just have to keep practicing!!

Merry Christmas all, I'm off to refresh my G&T...

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Hi folks, I've only skimmed this thread but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is that of all the movements we make flexion/extension is the one that blends all the others together and makes the whole smooth and graceful - consider this: as already mentioned it has the effect of managing pressure, but also it has a direct mechanical effect on steering/leg rotation, ability of the legs to incline or create angles and is arguably the single most important movement in establishing rhythm.

One comment on snowplough: apart from the obvious effects on controlling speed one reason skiers make a plough shape at turn initiation is because they don't yet have the confidence to flatten both skis simultaneously, ie making a plough shape whilst facing across a slope at the end of a turn is one way to flatten the new outside ski whilst retaining the security of the downhill ski. Some skiers of very steep terrain use a plough or wedge opening to initiate a turn for this very reason.

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Raceplate, completely agree about slush - initially hated it, but now it's what I imagine surfing to be like, but without the salt. Mind you, next morning after the freeze, it's a different story!

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Perhaps a little beside the point by this stage, but I believe that along with the revision of the BASI manual they realigned their views on how the central theme should be taught, and in particular that right from snowplough turns the focus should be on teaching to soften the inside leg while keeping the outside strong as opposed to a general flex. The idea behind it was to have fundamental skiing technique to be as closely matched as possible from very beginners to high performance.

Also perhaps interesting, biomechanically, I believe it is easier to turn a flexed leg than an extended one, so for intermediate skiers where the focus will be more on steering the ski for speed control, a flex can help finish off a steered turn, whereas an extension can be used as a less aggressive method of releasing the old inside edges to initiate a turn, a movement that can be redirected laterally with increase in confidence and experience for a higher performance turn.

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SkiRider, had 2 hrs of focusing on pretty much just that last night without poles, although the focus was more about softening the new inside leg going into the turn, there is still an "unfocused extension" of the new outside leg of course. The goal is the same, but changing the point of focus works pretty well, It's also easy to see those who are in fact actually softening the inside leg compared to someone attempting to apply pressure with the outside leg.

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Hmm, I wonder if I'm going to learn high performance turns in a single two-hour session at Hemel...?

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Why do we teach skiers to move up and down?

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