 Poster: A snowHead
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Depends on the resort - in some, the itineraries are avalanche controlled, in other they aren't. You need to check with the pisteurs to be sure
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| snowball wrote: |
| Even if a slope is not groomed skiers' tracks tend to compact it and make it safer. |
"Skier stabilised". What the guide said to me just moments before this happened - http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=85907#1970246
To be fair to him - the "stabilised" slid as a nice cohesive whole.
The absolute bug with statistics is if you're in the 0.00001% of the time that general advice breaks down. |
Well yes. I only said safer, not safe.
The time `I was in an avalanche the last person in the group set the slab off onto the rest of us. He rode it like a raft for a few yards before it broke up and went down 300 yards, gathering us all on the way.
The slope was under 30º and it was fairly old snow the guide had thought was quite safe.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| off piste starts where the grooming stops |
Almost all black pistes in Les Arcs are "ski natur" (as is Malgovert red) Are they off piste?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Grezzo wrote: |
Wow, thanks for all the replies/opinions. I didn't know these forums were quite this active!
So I guess the general consensus is that I am off piste no matter how far off I go and don't really know anything about reading the snow conditions, which can be very dangerous. I guess at least I'm now a bit more informed about it not being quite as safe off the edge of the pistes as I thought it was.s
I'm certainly not gonna buy all the gear this year (I could barely afford to go this year as it is) and I don't have time to learn much about reading the snow conditions before I go, so I guess I'll just stick to the piste a lot more this trip and perhaps try to learn a bit more for next season.
At the end of the day, most of what we do is a calculated risk, skiing/snowboarding is a fairly dangerous pastime, just like rock climbing is (my main hobby). If we were all trying to be as safe a possible, most of us wouldn't ever go near a road...
Out of interest, how hard is it to be a "safe" (perhaps I mean "informed") back country snowboarder? I know about most of the gear (beacon, pole, shovel, avalung, airbag, etc), just not sure (apart from going to henry's talks) what kind of training is available. Do ski schools do off-piste/backcountry training rather than just guiding? |
This book is excellent:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/offer-listing/0898868092/ref=sr_1_1_olp?ie=UTF8&qid=1328302828&sr=8-1&condition=new&tag=amz07b-21
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Grezzo, one of the best-value ways to go is to go on one of the specialist off-piste courses run at a number of UCPA centres in France, marketed through Action Outdoors in the UK.
they are incredible value, and offer top tuitition/guiding at different levels. There are a number of enthusiastic reports about them on Snowheads. The courses are all-in, include everything, and tend to cost around £600 a week. Much cheaper than most of the alternatives.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Arctic Roll wrote: |
| Quote: |
| off piste starts where the grooming stops |
Almost all black pistes in Les Arcs are "ski natur" (as is Malgovert red) Are they off piste? |
No.
If the "piste" is marked with piste markers and open then it's controlled. As are itineraries.
Whilst they've not been mentioned, you should always treat closed runs as off-piste. (Your insurance company certainly will!)
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| snowball wrote: |
Well yes. I only said safer, not safe.
The time `I was in an avalanche the last person in the group set the slab off onto the rest of us. He rode it like a raft for a few yards before it broke up and went down 300 yards, gathering us all on the way.
The slope was under 30º and it was fairly old snow the guide had thought was quite safe. |
Yikes, that sounds well scary!
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
Whilst they've not been mentioned, you should always treat closed runs as off-piste. (Your insurance company certainly will!) |
No they will treat them as closed (that old "skiing against resort / LA advice) and might refuse you any cover at all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Arctic Roll wrote: |
| Quote: |
| off piste starts where the grooming stops |
Almost all black pistes in Les Arcs are "ski natur" (as is Malgovert red) Are they off piste? |
Do they machine compact the snow? No? Then yeah, off-piste. All you're doing is skiing a lift accessible slope that gets skied a lot and I'd guess is avi controlled.
The retarded thing about this conversation is the absolute view of everything. The world doesn't work that way and there is no thing as being 100% safe. That doesn't mean your situation is all that dangerous though. The important bit is knowing what the current conditions mean in terms of your risk.
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The last time I fell off a drag lift [don't ask how] I stood there for ages because snow ploughing down down the narrow drag lift strip was not an option. Nearest piste was not far but there was a bit of "off the piste" in between. Despite it seemed there was nothing challenging or unsafe to it, I kept thinking "is my insurance going to cover me if I somehow break my leg going back to the piste??"
| livetoski wrote: |
I am not sure what happens else where, but I have seen French instructors from ESF taking kids off piste and not just down the side of the runs, I have shuddered a couple of times in the last few years seeing this happen, no avi gear and seems to be late afternoon on sunny days to finish the lesson off. OK avi risk was low but it really does surprise me that they are allowed to do this.
Anyone else seen this happening?  |
I thought it's quite common in France. It seems all UCPA groups (apart from the beginners groups) would do some of these "off piste" during the week. I always just trust the instructors know what they're doing and have the local knowledge to choose somewhere safe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Voice of Treason states that "10 times more people die in avalanches with a tranceiver and gear etc than die without a tranceiver and gear etc". Do you have any statistics to back up your statement?
A study of avalanche fatalities in the U.S. between 2000 to 2007 found that 64% of the victims were not wearing beacons. The study is cited in the book "Staying Alive in Avalanche Terrain".
Sarcasm and cynicism can be dangerous when it endorses irresponsible behavior.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Even the 4 year olds do a bit of "off piste" here. There's a particular bit of through the trees where they can avoid a slightly steep top to an otherwise gentle blue run down to the village. The kids love it. I'm sure it's safe from avalanches. Certainly instructors might sometimes make a poor judgement call - and fully qualified high mountain guides get killed in avalanches too. But at the level I ski I'd certainly not question an instructor who took me off piste during a lesson.
easiski (Charlotte Swift) takes even beginners off piste - she doesn't approve of them being only able to ski corduroy. 
If you ski with a qualified "expert" when you're very inexpert yourself, I think you just have to trust to their expertise. But that doesn't mean you think they are infallible.
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Grezzo, hello and welcome to snow heads!
A dangerous first question.
Two really good things about it; first you didn't get flamed and second you asked the question.
This question is quite often asked (with or without a bit about SCGB reps skiing in a similar way) and usually results in abuse directed at the OP. But is is a good question and as your asking it you are having a think which is a good thing.
Anyone who has skied anywhere in Europe will know that a huge number of people ski in the way you describe almost every day at every resort. And it is almost always fine.
Everyone has a different degree of risk the they are prepared to tolerate in their lives, I suppose the thing to do is at least have an idea of what you are doing and how to spot when things just might be way out of your comfort zone.
Have a look at the piste hors web site- it is fab, perhaps some youtube videos and avalanches, go to a talk in resort if there is one, get a book (staying alive in avalanche terrain is really very good indeed). Well some of these.
Look out for; new snow, wind, rising temperatures, cracks, natural avalanches/slides, collapsing snow underneath you, untested slopes; look at the avalanche report and flag, watch out for places you could get buried even by a small slide (terrain traps- hollows which if you fell in you'd easily be buried in). THink about a course/ off piste holiday.
Dare I say ski with better skiers / join a club (SCGB and ski a bit with reps......((ducks and runs for cover)).
Or go skiing /boarding where there is lots of unlisted inbounds snow-
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Even the 4 year olds do a bit of "off piste" here. |
Too right Pam. You saw the between the pistes I was doing with junior last weekend on the Small French Resorts Thread. I wouldn't think twice about it. There is loads of stuff close to pistes that has zero risk from avalanches. As for the other dangers, well you are more likely to get hit by some rocker skiing helmeted nut on piste to be honest.
We don't have the same issues with insurance companies that Brits have though. If you take carte/carre neige you are covered for rescue and the rest is done on the health service.
I have seen a lot of confusion this season on snowheads between natural avalanches and skier triggered avalanches. We've had a lot of natural activity this season due to the large dumps of snow but they are relatively easy to avoid if you don't ski down avalanche couloirs (where there is no escape) during periods of high risk. 95% of avalanche victims are caught by avalanches they or someone on the slope has triggered. The circumstances needed for such an avalanche are: cohesive snow (may still look like powder and nearly all powder is cohesive after a few hours), a sliding plane, a weak layer (depth, surface hoar, graupel or even fresh snow in some circumstances) and sufficient angle for the snow to slide. Skiers break up the weak layers as does avalanche control work etc which is why just off piste snow is less prone to avalanche. So I will stick to what I said earlier, if you are skiing off to the side of blue runs (about 15 degrees gradient) with no steeper slopes above and the off piste is the same grade as the blue then you are pretty safe. The kind of scenario is the hill with two blues running down and an unpisted section in between.
Regarding statistics, most victims are people who live in or next to the mountains not tourists. That's maybe obvious as they are the people who ski most and perhaps take most risk because they know the area well (see all the work on heuristic traps: familiarity etc).
Interestingly the Chambery Court and the ESF have just lauched a DVD to inform ski instructors of their rights and responsibilities when skiing off piste.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ed123 wrote: |
Look out for; new snow, wind, rising temperatures, cracks, natural avalanches/slides, collapsing snow underneath you, untested slopes; look at the avalanche report and flag, watch out for places you could get buried even by a small slide (terrain traps- hollows which if you fell in you'd easily be buried in). THink about a course/ off piste holiday.
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Also convex slopes are less stable than concave.
It is lee slopes when there has been strong wind that are most dangerous, Most avalanche deaths are caused by windslab formed by snow deposited by the wind on lee slopes. It makes a cohesive slab which doesn't bond properly to the snowpack and tends to slip in one piece when broken (by a skier for example). If more snow falls on top of it it may still be dangerous. (The avalanche I was in was probably old windslab). Consequently it is good to know from which direction the wind blew. Most commonly North or East facing slopes are lee slopes in the Alps.
Take note of any recent avalanches around. Similar slopes elsewhere are suspect.
If in doubt try to ski down ridges rather than down hollows and valleys.
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Poster: A snowHead
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davidof,
dude
spot on
many places between pistes
are safer than the pistes themselves
like Le Chaux and Savoleyres in Verbier
ok bye
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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davidof, I don't know why I totally trust your advice, because I've never even met you. But I do. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The important thing to remember is, the avalanche doesn't know if you are an expert or not.
Here is the totster in today's extreme off-piste action
biggest risk today was hypothermia, or hitting a tree (as someone previously mentioned)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, who won? Totster or tree branch?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| abc wrote: |
| davidof knows what he's talking about more than the average poster here. |
He does, although sadly he won't be there to help you, or me, take informed decisions on the day.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| davidof knows what he's talking about more than the average poster here. |
He does, although sadly he won't be there to help you, or me, take informed decisions on the day. |
I'd be happy to ski / ski tour with anyone who is down Grenoble way though.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| davidof knows what he's talking about more than the average poster here. |
He does, although sadly he won't be there to help you, or me, take informed decisions on the day. |
No one dose. Not even your avi course instructor.
As soon as you finish the course, you're on your own.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sat 4-02-12 23:35; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think that kind of sums it up for me. "Off the piste" can be a perfectly fun and safe place to take your child or friends or could suddenly become a very complicated place to be with unexpected and uncomfotable (if not necessarily mortal) hazards.
It all depends on where it is and perhaps more importantly your ability to make a sensible assessment of the risks (and in terms of specific risks of unknown off piste to off the piste you are encompassing such a broad range of different environments it's impossible to give generic advice over an Internet thread).
By and large the risks on piste are less to do with piste and snow condition (by and large the piste will be well prepared the terrain predictable). What may be a lot less predictable will be the way you might react to the piste (eg steaming down at high speed), and what definitely is much less predictable is how others will ski on the same piste. Or indeed how many people you will be sharing the piste with.
Off piste different hazards become more important. This may of course depend on where you are skiing.
But probably most important is your ability to correctly assess the risk (including if it exists at all), and deciding how you will react to that risk and what impact it has on your decision making. On or off piste.
(and picking up on Davidof's point, it's worth understanding that a lot of these decisions are made at a subconscious "heuristic" level. Which is good, bad and inevitable. But worth knowing).
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Sat 4-02-12 23:46; edited 1 time in total
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| abc wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| davidof knows what he's talking about more than the average poster here. |
He does, although sadly he won't be there to help you, or me, take informed decisions on the day. |
No one dose. Not even your avi course instructor.
As soon as you finish the course, you're on your own. |
Exactly right. I'm simply saying that a simple guideline such as skiing within sight of a piste providing it is the same slope and aspect is not a good way to assess how safe the off-piste is.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| davidof knows what he's talking about more than the average poster here. |
He does, although sadly he won't be there to help you, or me, take informed decisions on the day. |
No one dose. Not even your avi course instructor.
As soon as you finish the course, you're on your own. |
Exactly right. I'm simply saying that a simple guideline such as skiing within sight of a piste providing it is the same slope and aspect is not a good way to assess how safe the off-piste is. |
So what is?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Avalanche education, so you can make informed decisions. So, read a book (the Bruce Tremplar one is a good one), read the avalanche bulletins at the resort you're skiing (before and while you;re there), use the online resources (PisteHors, I think Glenmore Lodge has some resources, no doubt loads of others), attend some talks by organisations such as HAT, ski with guides and ask lots of questions, even do an avalanche course. Plenty of ways to improve your knowledge.
No of this guarantees risk-free off-piste skiing, but it will help you to make much better decisions.
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Did that
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use the online resources
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Did that
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even do an avalanche course
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Did that
I still come to the conclusion skiing side of the piste on the same slope and aspect is about one of the safest.
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You know it makes sense.
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abc, you have totally missed the point about snowpack stability.
there is a reason why in lots of US resorts, patrollers and volunteers will bootpack a base tighter in early season in some off-piste areas to prevent slides later.
You might have the same aspect and slope as the adjacent piste, That is not the same as the same snowpack.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, stoat of the dead,
| Quote: |
So I will stick to what I said earlier, if you are skiing off to the side of blue runs (about 15 degrees gradient) with no steeper slopes above and the off piste is the same grade as the blue then you are pretty safe. The kind of scenario is the hill with two blues running down and an unpisted section in between.
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So, are you saying that this statement from davidof is wrong? Or has this turned into an argument about what he might mean by 'pretty safe'?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
| That is not the same as the same snowpack. |
If it were "the same", it's would be AS SAFE as the piste, which was not what I said.
Still, I come to the conclusion it is one of the safest.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pedantica, 15 to 20 degrees in the right place, no worries. 30-40 degrees totally different.
That's the difference between his and ABCs approach. Guess which one I'd rather ski with...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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stoat of the dead, are blue runs often in the 30-40 degree league?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stoat of the dead wrote: |
| Pedantica, 15 to 20 degrees in the right place, no worries. 30-40 degrees totally different. |
Whatever the angle, if it's next to the piste, it will slide into the piste when it goes. So the patrol would have set it off before openning the piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abc wrote: |
| stoat of the dead wrote: |
| Pedantica, 15 to 20 degrees in the right place, no worries. 30-40 degrees totally different. |
Whatever the angle, if it's next to the piste, it will slide into the piste when it goes. So the patrol would have set it off before openning the piste. |
You're still talking about terrain by the side of the the piste, or are you now talking about terrain above it?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Pedantica, in her initial post abc never quantified what slope angle she was happy to ski by the side of the piste. If she amends her opinion to say low angle slopes, such as blues, I would say that's a much better approach to deciding what's safe. I'd ski gentle terrain under most circumstances, regardless of whether it is beside the piste or not. But steeper terrain could be unsafe just to the side of the piste, no matter what abc says. BTW, a 40 degree slope is proper steep, steeper than many (if not all?) black pistes.
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rob@rar,
dude
do you ever take your instructees
in to side of piste snow
without avi gear
cos looks like you do
from photos on your sites etc
and if so is it safe
ok bye
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rob@rar, sorry, for some reason I had assumed that abc was talking about shallow slopes. That's the trouble with lawyers, they're not good at detail... I did, however, realise that 40 degrees was proper steep!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| abc wrote: |
| Whatever the angle, if it's next to the piste, it will slide into the piste when it goes. So the patrol would have set it off before openning the piste. |
abc, I don't necessarily disagree with your point that off-piste next to piste is on the safer end of off-piste to ski.
But what's dangerous is offering a generalisation as advice to others that is based on, what is at best, bad assumptions and generalisations.
It's simply not true that all off-piste next to a slope "will slide into the same piste when it goes" and it's simply not true that "whatever the angle" the ski patrol bomb will have "set it off before opening the piste".
The ski patrol do not control all off-piste next to the piste. They control what their risk-based assessments and experience suggest need to be controlled based on natural, historic avalanche paths. Even that control isn't always successful.
The only thing you can safely say is that the condition of a particular piste is not a proxy for the safety of the adjacent off-piste.
I did a circuit of the PDS yesterday skied through Morgins, Champoussin and Les Crosets. Amongst the things we saw:
- three places where avalanches that had run out across pistes
- glide cracks right up to the edge of pistes
- lots of avalanche debris from control above the piste that will have been cleared from the piste, but had been left on the off-piste
- a slab avalanche within 50m of a piste which had tracks into it.
I regularly ski off-piste next to the piste without arva kit and do so on the basis of my own risk assessment.
But I would never offer a blanket generalisation that it is safe to do so.
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| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
| Whatever the angle, if it's next to the piste, it will slide into the piste when it goes. So the patrol would have set it off before openning the piste. |
abc, I don't necessarily disagree with your point that off-piste next to piste is on the safer end of off-piste to ski.
But what's dangerous is offering a generalisation as advice to others that is based on, what is at best, bad assumptions and generalisations.
It's simply not true that all off-piste next to a slope "will slide into the same piste when it goes" and it's simply not true that "whatever the angle" the ski patrol bomb will have "set it off before opening the piste".
The ski patrol do not control all off-piste next to the piste. They control what their risk-based assessments and experience suggest need to be controlled based on natural, historic avalanche paths. Even that control isn't always successful.
The only thing you can safely say is that the condition of a particular piste is not a proxy for the safety of the adjacent off-piste.
I regularly ski off-piste next to the piste without arva kit and do so on the basis of my own risk assessment.
But I would never offer a blanket generalisation that it is safe to do so. |
QFT
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FAQ
