 Poster: A snowHead
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bejes, There you go again! Stance foot - uphill and down hill ski (and you're talking about more advanced ski-ing. Sorry, for me you have inside and outside ski, or turning ski (the one that does the work). Also, I'm afraid I absolutely disagree with you about most people starting their turns in a wedge. maybe that's true in the States, but I don't think it's the case in Europe. In fact the majority of European skiers have a tendency to keep their skis parallel and flat and turn their bodies into the turn (rotation) . Not that I think this is a good idea (in fact it's a terrible idea). You say HH slags PSIA - but read his stuff - he refers to all or most other instructors - he doesn't qualify it by "american". He then seems to frequently suggest that we teach rotation, foot turning, outer hip rotation and lots of other things that have been defunct in Europe for a long time. I can't speak about the PSIA, except in the most general terms, and it's true that many of their "Full Certs" do have an A frame. Perhaps this is what you're referring to? If so - don't tar us all with the same brush please! Anyone with even a hint of an A frame would not even be allowed to take a European (meaning the cartel) National exam.
RobertC, You said it - 25 years ago. The stepping motion came from two sources - the stem christie which was a step out and step in movement (along with rotation and counter rotation), or possibly from racing turns - stem step (not to be confused with stem christie), parallel step and skating step. These are still done occasionally in racing to gain height, and I find the stem step brilliant in crud. For an explanation on the different teaching techniques today, please see my earlier post. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, bejes, I may well be missing the point here, but when I looked at HH's site following his last mention here there seemed to be very little difference between what he was saying and other "modern" dogmas - and the amount of heat generated seemed far out of proportion. As a simple example, ane problem I've recently had sorted out was the outside ski slipping out part way through the turn, which was down to me pressuring the outside ski fine, but not shortening the inside leg enough to allow the lower body to angulate without reweighting the inside ski, and so any extra pressure on the outside ski just caused a skid. Sorting this out (shortening the inside leg) sounds very much like the "phantom move" to me - but was taught entirely within the context of modern (slalom) carving technique. I'm sure I've seen exactly the same major point about rolling the inside knee into the turn in both strategies too.
Maybe the big deal all about the order in which stuff is taught - as easiski and I have already disagreed before about the worth of a snowplough as the first turn you learn (but I freely admit I've only got my own limited experience to go on, not 30-odd years of professional expertise).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, Inside outside, downhill uphill ski, i think you know what ski im talking about. You have to call the ski something...Maybe ill describe it as stance foot and free foot if thats clearer.
Well maybe in europe thats true, but in australia and canada, where i spent 5 weeks this season most skiers ski like that. I also observed many instructors, and what they were teaching, very big on the up unweighting move to begin a turn, contrary to PMTs.
Are you saying candian instructors are way different to european? Quite possibly true, i dont know.
Im only going on my experience, as anyone does. Most of HH criticism is of the PSIA as a methodology, not the individual instructors.
Talk to a few people who have done a harb camp. They arent running back to traditonal lessons in a hurry.
As i said before, if you arent teaching and emphasisng the importance of a release i dont think students will work this out on their own, and carry on regardless with a wedge entry in their turn. (If you say big toe, thats what they are going to think. Jam that big toe edge in.)
Keep in mind this can be very subtle and hard to spot, and to many will look like parallel skiing. video analysis helps, certainly has in my skiing.
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easiski,
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In fact the majority of European skiers have a tendency to keep their skis parallel and flat and turn their bodies into the turn (rotation)
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Is this not just a progression from the big toe to big toe movements which they learnt in the snowplough. The skier pushes off, changes direction in a parallel drift, and then re-engages. The skis are now parallel, rather than wedge, but it's a skid.
It's my impression that a wide stance helps disguise a big toe to big toe move too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I took a look at the Harald Harb site last time his name came up here a few months ago. Reading between the lines, I came to the conclusion that he's promoting the cult of his own personality, the better to extract fees. This is coupled with claims of some mystical knowledge, the key to all skiing, that will be revealed upon production of any major credit card. Straight out of the tele-evangelist marketing handbook.
Reading the site, I was reminded of what someone said to me about a guy giving a marketing presentation (in a technical forum) who made large claims without saying anything about how his gizmo worked: "it was like going to a strip club where the girl prances around but doesn't actually take off any clothes".
I'm sure he's a great skier, not half bad as an instructor, and has plenty of adherents - but then most people are positive about any sustained instruction they receive.
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laundryman, Well said. I've got loads of HH stuff on the PC, and have just spent a whole hour going over it - too much to quote here. I was looking for a particular article which I remember as being almost impossible to understand, but it must now be in the archive. The gist is, that lots of it's gobbledegook (IMO), and in many cases he seems to say "this is wrong" but not explain why, or "this is what's taught by traditional methods", but he's either speaking about the US or he's thinking back to his father's day in Europe - neither of which are particularly helpful, or truthful. 
I've just read articles where he advises advancing the inner ski, and others where he advises advancing the outer ski (during a turn). Articles where he says hip rotation is bad, and articles where he says the hips should move round in line with the skis (square). Articles where he claims all other instructors teach very wide (shoulder?) stance, that you should close your stance, and then that you should not!
If you like this stuff, by all means go on his courses, but why not also try good European courses too? I'm sure that NewGen, Warren Smith, myself. skiPro and many, many others (too many to list) do not teach what he suggests we do, and do not fall into the traps that he claims for all people taught by non PMTS methods.
That's it - I'm off this topic now. I posted earlier exactly why I think snowplough is important, and how I teach beginners. We already had a long and heated thread about PMTS.
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Well as a non-instructor, but as a client who has spent a considerable amount of time in "lessons" (90 days last season and plenty before that) - I can safely say I don't give a monkeys what letters the instructors have, just what I learn from them.
One of the best coaches I've had was the one getting me doing sort of snowploughs to help with carving - I think he refered to them as powerploughs, and that _really_ helped. I think he happens to be a CSIA 4 and CSCF something or other (which makes him a pretty top end coach!), though the coaching methods employed (along with many used by the Dave Murray coaches) don't seem like they come from the CSIA manual - if you've done a DM course you'll know what I mean! 
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I was taught the snowplough during lessons but often found they didn't completely stop me. Something that it's very important to know how to do as a beginner.
A couple of points that I learnt myself to improve the normal snowplough:
1. Getting the tips of the skis closer together increases the wedge shape and increases the stopping power.
2. Angling the skis against the snow more also increases the stopping power.
I often use a snowplough when on a narrow steep path. I know I can be completely confident in it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
| bejes, I can't speak about the PSIA, except in the most general terms, and it's true that many of their "Full Certs" do have an A frame. |
i see.
i was a little....shall we say, surprised by that statement. 
now i know that BASI is much further along than any of us in the USA, however, would you care to delve into what, in the world, would cause you to make such a statement?
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Rusty Guy, I really don't want to get into this again, but I say that because every full cert I've ever watched ski-ing has. Now it may be that I've been unlucky in the full certs that I've watched or the videos I've seen, but that's the truth. One of them was a guy from Winter Park (long time ago now), who was promoting the resort all over the UK! Honestly, this really is the case over about 20-25 years. Now it may all have changed, but HH claims that PSIA encourage skiers to follow their skis with their hips, which would, of course, produce a slight rotation, which would lead to an A frame.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, and we all know how much HH loves the PSIA...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Which is why I don't want to get back into it again - we should just agree to disagree. Rusty Guy, and I are coming from the same place on lots of things - best leave it alone now. BTW how's your PSB planning coming - you've gone quiet lately?
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You know it makes sense.
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my question was use of the term "many"
we have 6000 members of PSIA in the Rock Mountain division of PSIA There are about 30,000 nationally. Approximately 30% are full certs.
I guess you get where I'm headed with my analysis.
I am certain easiski is aware of this, however, I must be honest that it was new to me. Last winter, it was pointed out to me by one of our divisional ed staff, that in addition to rotation of the hips leading to A-framing, counter rotating can have the same result.
Are there "full certs" from the US who show A-framing? Certainly. Just as they do in other countries. Is it something intrinsic in PSIA teaching? No.
One guy from "years ago"? Geeeeze
As stated I just didn't understand either the reference to PSIA or use of the term many. I don't think easiski has yet warmed up to Yankee ski instructors. Please come visit us easiski.......we'll play nice! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Rusty Guy, only if you have some serious muscle under the hood . . . you need to scope her wheels. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Rusty Guy, If every European instructor you'd watched ski had the same fault would you not conclude that this was the norm? I was particularly mentioning that guy because he was from Winter Park, may still be there and you may be able to find out who he is. (Wnet all round the UK publicising Winter Park, I met him at Hillend near Edinburgh). I have met and watched around 10-12 full certs in person, and these are the guys who come over here, therefore there is also a certain assumption that they are ambassadors of their country/body. Do you think this is unreasonable? I've also watched a great many videos, read books, looked at websites etc. and it seemed to be a theme throughout.
BTW why don't you come here? Summer maybe? Our season in LDA is end Nov - end April, mid June - end Aug + All saints week for the Mondial - not much time for visiting!! (+, sorry, waiting for you guys to kick a certain person out of power).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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i have always wanted to ski in europe. i have a 12 year old daughter and plan to wait a few more years until she is old enough to fully appreciate the trip.
we'll both come over and a-frame for you.
if i saw 12 european instructors and they all a-framed i might well come to the same conclusion. it would, however, be flawed.
are you suggesting books, videos, or websites associated with PSIA advocate a-framing? which ones? you say there are a "great many".
listen I'm not trying to paint you into a corner, however, your assertion is fallacious. you seem prone to use the term "many" and "great many". 12 instructors is not many among 30k. you also admitted the WP instructor was a "long time ago now".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Rusty Guy, I have watched a great many videos etc that were made in the states - didn't mean that PSIA advocate - it just seemed to be a common thing (in the pix). Of course my experience is limited as you rightly point out - but I couldn't inspect all your full certs could I? I am quite prepared to believe that everything has changed and this (apparent) issue has been resolved. Not many american ski teachers come to europe, so OK 10-12 is not many over the 30 years I've been doing this... but these are the only ones I have encountered! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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it reminds me of our friends to the north. folks down here (USA) like to talk about canadian instructors skiing in a pronounced crouch with very round shoulders. I say hogwash. i lived in canada for three years and it is merely my two pence worth that there is no nexus between nations and professional skier's styles.
do we have ski instructors who a-frame either due to alignment issues, rotation, etc.? Yes. Is it systemic or related to teaching? Not in my mind.
I think the biggest fraud being perpetuated today is "women specific" skis. Do some women have a greater q-angle and as a result physiological differences? Some. That can be addressed individually. Ban me from that topic.
do you feel austrian ski instructors ski differently than swiss? than italian, french?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 26-09-05 5:04; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Rusty Guy,
Well they always USED to say..." ah, see you learnt to ski in Austria". And the French used to be obsessed with feet together, but that was years ago..!!
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Rusty Guy, The Portes du Soleil is a large area of 12 interlinked stations, some French some Swiss. IMHO, the French and Swiss instructors have noticeably different styles. The Swiss appear less elegant but perhaps more efficient looking (and oddly, from an aesthetic point of view more race influenced). The French are more elegant, fluid and clearly more adept at skiing bumps with a cigarette out of side of mouth and small glass of pastis in one hand. Legs too close together too.
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Rusty Guy, Absolutely agree about the "women's skis", but Elizabeth B recently tried some that actually did perform and were not like squelchy tomatos!
Yes there are differences in Europe (no difference in the WC racers). Many of the older French do ski too close together, but the young guys have now gone the other way and are totally into the whole carving/slalom thing. The swiss have changed their whole system to adapt to the carving revolution, but to my knowledge the austrians have not yet gone the whole hog. BASI has gone modern with oldy inserts!! The italians are very forward in their upper body and tend to ski longer skis and stiffer boots than the resrt - very elegant, but a little "posed" - that's just their culture though. The French think the italians are too studied, the italians think the french are too relaxed and not correct enough (they really don't care what they look like on the whole), they alol think the austrians need to move with the times!!!!
I like to watch italians ski-ing, but I love the relaxed attitude of the french (and while they might not always look 100% correct - boy can they ski). I haven't been in switzerland recently enough to see what they're really dfoing, but the austrians are still very keen on "face the walley"
David Murdoch, Swiss - efficient????  when are they not!!
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| but the austrians are still very keen on "face the walley" |
Reminds me of when Hannah's friend Louisa - also of the DHO - and Hannah came back from a day on the slopes in Pitztal. All the DHO trainers are Austrians, and have been for some years now. Although Louisa's English is better than Hannah's they have considerable trouble understanding the trainers at times.
Caroline (Louisa's mum) asked if they'd understood everything, to which Louisa replied "most of the time, except he kept saying 'huppabottydowndewalley'..."
It took us a while to work it out!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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as i read all this i think of the expression "you can't change a tiger's stripes". now to make sense of that.......isn't everthing observed largely dependant upon the age of the instructor?
we have 60 and 70 year old PSIA members still trying to do the "slow dog noodle".
can any one say "jet stix"?
at epicski there is a video loop of a 70 something instructor named Ott Gangle wedeling. mention that word to a 20 something instructor and you'll get a blank stare.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 26-09-05 5:05; edited 1 time in total
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easiski, we can discuss this over a wee glass of pastis ourselves at the PSB, but note I said "aesthetically" - they definitely have an aggressive air about them, but when you see them racing...would put my 10 francs on the french anyday.
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