 Poster: A snowHead
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in fairness to the French we had a meal at teh Pizza Pasta place about the Lognan mid station in Chamonix and- it was really good and not expensive. Kids had a bowl of pasta / pizza, drink and youghurt for about €9 which was reasonable I thought- and the pasta was fresh- the service was actually good - the BQ looked good too. And cool music.
Much better than the €20 sag bol and salad I hated so much la Rosiere.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes, both the mountain restaurants at Argentiere are really great - good food, salad bars and very reasonable prices. Apparently they are run by the lift company. Pity other French resorts can't copy their example.
holidayloverxx, out of interest, where did you chose in VT and what was "the other place"?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 2-05-11 7:53; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So,the resorts in France offering best value for money are?? 
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SkiTurk, Monetier (SerreChevalier) was pretty good in March this year, I thought - bearing in mind the value of the £.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Agreed achilles, Find Val T expensive in comparison
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| greg66 wrote: |
Years ago, I had the following insights given to me by a couple of brothers who had worked a few seasons (3 Vallees & Portes du Soliel):
- most resorts are controlled by a few families, who control the local council, own most of the shops/hotels/restaurants/rental shops and the lifts.
- the resorts are run for them, not the guests.
- they charge what they do because they can.
- they charge what they do because they make no effort in the summer season, so have to make a year's income in half a year.
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I don’t think this has happened in France yet, or even if it will, but in Italy major companies are starting to diversify and expand their operations by opening very large mountain restaurants in some ski resorts.
In our area in Madonna di Campiglio there is a new (2 years old) one called Cafe Fiat and the top station on Passo Groste has just (again 2 years ago) been bought by BIASA – they just demolished the old place and built the new, 3 storey, cafe that’s there now. From start to finish the whole project took just 8 months – just shows what can be done with a “mega” budget. Mind you they utilised their 4 company helicopters in the construction project, converted from carry executives to carrying cement slung underneath. Both of these places are of a MUCH higher standard than the old owners could have afforded to build. Cafe Fiat (on the top of Monte Spinale) is probably the best cafe I’ve been to in the mountains and I have been to many, it does have a restaurant as well, but I tend not to have time between lessons, so I just pop into the cafe.
Both of these new mega cafes have brought the standards of ALL the local mountain restaurants as they have introduced professional service and catering standards that you don’t normally get in the mountains. The other cafes fully understand that if you can’t compete, you close. They have also forced down the prices over the whole area as, of course, they don’t have to worry about paying the mortgage.
Unless you are a mega company is almost impossible to start up a mountain cafe in the Dolomites from scratch. It’s not that the costs would be extremely high but also there would be opposition from the established owners (families), so a bank balance of at least a few hundred million does help a little. Even the planning regs in a national park can be nudged a little with the help of some very large (and expensive) Rome based law firms
Maybe this will happen in France one day
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 2-05-11 9:12; edited 1 time in total
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| Quote: |
Maybe this will happen in France one day
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What, bribing and bullying people to break planning regulations in a national park just to open a caff? I sincerely hope not. 
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| What, bribing and bullying people to break planning regulations in a national park just to open a caff? I sincerely hope not. |
If it brings down costs, improves service and induces people to come (or return) to a resort, "pourquoi pas"?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
France will only change if people vote with their feet. Absolutely ski season in France tends to take advantage, I guess cos they can. Personally I find Italy and Austria better overal value.
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I agree with Bob here. Myself and Mrs M had some great holidays in Val D'Isere. Tignes, 3V approx 30-35 weeks I'd say over a 15 year period, and in last 5 years we've been only once (and felt so ripped off we'll not be going back until things change). We now ski in Austria and Switzerland where we feel our hard-earned cash is appreciated and we are dealing with real people who have a vested interest in their resort, rather than sadly people either more keen to rip you off, or young seasonnaires who are only interested in partying and dont the meaning of the word service. IMO France has lost its position as market leader 10 years ago, and is now very much second division for the following reasons:-
(a) Lack of investment in lift system in recent years (last proper investment was for the Olympics in 1992), apart from World Champs in 2009 (?) when Val built Les Laissants lift. I can not recall any other significant investment - a classic here is Meribel/ Mottaret, antiquated lift system, compare this to sat Arlberg area which is continually reinvesting.
(b) Road infrastructure, poor access, queues/ tolls etc, poor service stations
(c) Undersized, dated and often unclean, and over-priced accommodation, smelly corridors, poor ski/ boot rooms in large blocks and a 1970's feel to much of the accom
(d) Poor mountain facilities, dirty toilets, overpriced restaurants, couldnt care less attitude of thois manning them, charging for use of the toilets (even when eating there)
(e) Overpriced parking charges
A classic poor service, rip-off culture from what i have seen and paid for, same reason I dont fly with Mr O'Leeery.
IMO its about value, so far the French Alps have lost about £20,000 of my money, and many others I speak to share the same views and dont go anymore, rather go to other areas that provide a better experience.
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Find France disproportionately expensive; hotels, restaurants can be poor value. Switzerland is expensive but the quality of service and accomodation is higher, and thus is better value. Austria is relatively cheap - Italy is a bargain by comparison; great food, service and spotless accomodation.
I've taken my family to France, Austria (twice) and Switzerland (twice) - enjoyed them all; this year we went to Italy (fifth time). Next year I'll be taking my young family to Italy again!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stephen buck wrote: |
holidayloverxx, out of interest, where did you chose in VT and what was "the other place"? |
We chose the Caribou and 2Lacs for lunch and the Chalet de Caron for lunch and apres. We had been having apres at the Montana. Part of the reason for moving to Chalet de Caron was to be at the Cairn lift before it closed and the indifferent service at Montana sealed the decision.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Glad to hear Serre Chevalier isn't too pricey since that's where I'm probably headed next season.
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As Florent Pagny (a famous French singer) said the other day (and was widely criticized for it)
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| "here in america if there is cash to be made people will be working day and night to make it, and in France? we invent the 35 hour week!" |
There is little incentive for businesses to try harder than they do.
That said, many of the small resorts offer good value lift passes and food.
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You know it makes sense.
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Ski Turk
Best value for money in France - the southern alp resorts. When I was at university in France the ski trip was to Les Orres so this is probably one of the cheapest. Puy St Vincent is cheap but limited ski area.
Chamrousse also looks good value but haven't been there yet.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| achilles wrote: |
| SkiTurk, Monetier (SerreChevalier) was pretty good in March this year, I thought - bearing in mind the value of the £. |
How much is the serre chevalier lift pass? I'm sure it isn't one of the cheapest.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Markymark29, one more time ........ Espace Killy and the 3V are not the only ski areas in France. 
Wayne, I see no reason to reply to such a piece of moronic trollery.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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snowymum, £162 for next season for six days. I'm sure that's similar to what I paid in Kitzbuhel this season.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SkiTurk, To have good value for your money, it can be a good idea to take a look for the pyrenees,,,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lizzard, Really?!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| I see no reason to reply to such a piece of moronic trollery. |
Trollery? Wasn’t meant to be, it’s just that I have a good knowledge of this area, oh well.
Moronic? Again, oh well, you put your head above the parapet. It's the nature of the interweby 
My point was that by introducing a large, well funded, well run, reasonably priced new business into an area that has (or may have been) been viewed as a private fiefdom by a small cartel of people or families for decades can only be a good thing from the punters point of view.
It will bring down prices, improve service and, if nothing else, shake things up a bit.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wayne, fine. Not, however, at the expense of the protected environment of a national park thank you very much. There's more life than either skiing or commerce.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Not, however, at the expense of the protected environment of a national park thank you very much. |
Both the locations had cafes there any way. All the large companies did was demolish them and rebuild much better (IMO), cleaner, better run, lower priced, etc, cafes.
| Lizzard wrote: |
| There's more life than skiing. |
Are you sure
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard, Sorry I missed Avoriaz/ Morzine, Les Gets, La Plagne, and Risoul/ Vars off my list, all same in my experience, apologies to LDA and Alpe Duez - will give these two a try. Chamonix is a gem, IMO still a rip-off but witha access to Grand Montets and Vallee Blanche etc its well within its rights to charge appropriately, plus some great restaurants and a proper town so it does not need to be compared to other French ski resorts IMO.
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Wayne, stop being thick. I was objecting to your assertion that illegal building in a national park was fine as long as it was good for business. It was that assertion which I described as moronic trollery. Which is what it is.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| There's more life than either skiing or commerce. |
Er, not if you're a professional ski instructor, then both are pretty much your entire life. Same as many thousands of people who's livelihood is dependant on the skiing industry, and has been for generations.
What's the view like from up there in your ivory tower?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Have not skiied in France for many years and for many reasons, rip off yes or resorts run by cartel is probably nearer the mark.
IMO North America is the place if you want service and not to be ripped off, the bars and restaraunts are actully fighting to take your bucks not coherting with each other to set pricing and ensure you pay the same evrywhere you go.
France is a great place with just one problem, it is full of French people 
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I for one have given up France after discovering what those in Switzerland, Austria and Italy are like.
Apart from Mercure hotel in Briancon there wasn't a single accommodation in France we didn't feel let down. We never have a complaint with the accommodations we stayed in Italy, Switzerland and Austria. It is really that extreme!
I am sure there are nice accommodations in France but on the same price range they are at the bottom or couple of leagues lower than other Alpine resorts.
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You know it makes sense.
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France is a great place with just one problem, it is full of French people
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leedsunited, What a surprise
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Dr John, would that ivory tower be the one owned by Lizzard's employers, a well-known french ski resort?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Kel wrote: |
Is it a generalisation...
But let's look at where the tour operators go, which is probably how 90% of British skiers take there hols, remember Snowheads are the exception not the norm. They go to the French Massifs and quite frankly these places are out to bleed you dry. |
Well, (I haven't got the numbers infront of me but from memory and for the sake of some accuracy...) something like 65-70% use tour ops, the rest are DIY or property owners. And maybe 40% go to France. Austria & Italy account for another 40%, and the rest is taken up by Switz, Andorra, Bulgaria, Scandinavia, USA, Canada and up-coming destinations like Spain, Slovenia. Mustn't forget Scotland either - those 5 resorts probably saw as many skier days from UK skiers as USA.
The talk at the school gates for a few years now has been how pricey France has got yet people still keep going and that's possibly because they aren't stupid and know that the main areas of fleecing can be in bars and up the mountain. You don't HAVE to be fleeced, although fleeced is an apt word as it describes the sheep mentality that often leads to resort choice. Chalet hol with free wine and a few boxes of cheap stubby lager on the balcony, makes it no more or less affordable than anywhere else.
My problem with the place isn't the pricing, it's the poor humour with which the funds are often extracted. Most of us have no problem paying higher-than-home prices for good food/drink with good service and nice surroundings/ambience. I think the French fall down at the service end of things so it can feel like a proper fleecing - whereas the Austrians score big time on service and do it for way less. |
OK the figure I used of 90% was a bit rash, but if 40% (people going to France) of the 70% (TO travellers) that equates to 28% of people who go on a skiing holiday are going to France with a TO. Well the proportion certainly feels like a hell of alot more than that when I look around the departure hall in Manchester airport. And of the people I know it is definitely more than 28% who go to France with a TO.
Anyway none of that really matters, what does matter is that in Italy I can get a nice meal "served" to me in a nice traditional restaurant with a couple of beers for around €15 and I don't have to trawl the mountain trying to find such a place, they all seem to be more or less the same.
Yes I know I can steal a cheese and ham roll from the breakfast buffet and wrap it in tin foil and have it for lunch and I know I can get a case of Kronenbourg from the Spar and drink beer on the balcony. But you know what I don't do that at home, so why would I want to do it holiday.
Fact is I have probably spent somewhere in the region of £50k on skiing holidays (not on myself, mainly family) over the last 7 years. Most of these have been in France and of course not all this money has gone into the French economy, but a good proportion of it has. The reason I went there was because I thought nowhere could compare to the French mega resorts for the skiing experience, I was wrong. The Sella Ronda area beats them hands down IMHO as an overall holiday experience.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| freeheelskier wrote: |
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France is a great place with just one problem, it is full of French people
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leedsunited, What a surprise |
I often wondered why God gave the Alps to the French, and before anyone corrects me I know the Alps go into other countries.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Kel wrote: |
| Yes I know I can steal a cheese and ham roll from the breakfast buffet and wrap it in tin foil and have it for lunch and I know I can get a case of Kronenbourg from the Spar and drink beer on the balcony. But you know what I don't do that at home, so why would I want to do it holiday. |
I don't do that either but there are plenty of posts hidden in this forum where people advocate doing exactly that. They want French vertical and mileage and convenience (thinking that nowhere else has it) so will cut the corners necessary to deliver their trip within budget.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Dr John, I too rely on skiing to make a living. I'm just not arrogant enough to believe that my interests are more important than those of everyone else. Maybe that's because I'm not a ski instructor.
leedsunited, Mr L is French. He's very nice, as are the rest of his family. You, on the other hand, are being a git. Am I allowed to infer from this that everyone who lives in Leeds is likewise a git?
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Mr L is French. He's very nice, as are the rest of his family. You, on the other hand, are being a git. Am I allowed to infer from this that everyone who lives in Leeds is likewise a git?
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Lizzard, You have a point here
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isn't the answer that places in the big French ski factories charge that much because they can? lots of people want huge areas with great variety of skiing and are prepared to pay for it - espace killy, paradiski and the 3V are as good as anywhere for that
if you want a low key resort with reasonable prices, france has plenty of that if you can be bothered to look
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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leedsunited, Mr L is French. He's very nice, as are the rest of his family. You, on the other hand, are being a git. Am I allowed to infer from this that everyone who lives in Leeds is likewise a git?[/quote]
In a democratic world you are aloud to infer what ever you like and i will not take offence as you are probably correct, i would also say the same about the other side of the pennines, lovely part of the world just full of Lancastrians 
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Arno,
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sn't the answer that places in the big French ski factories charge that much because they can? lots of people want huge areas with great variety of skiing and are prepared to pay for it - espace killy, paradiski and the 3V are as good as anywhere for that
if you want a low key resort with reasonable prices, france has plenty of that if you can be bothered to look
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So right,,, so long skier are prepared to pay, its costs, the reason its cheaper in other places is that not alot of skiier want to pay, thats buissnes, and its have nothing with VATs and other thing to do,,
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FAQ
