 Poster: A snowHead
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| A tyre will be warm to touch after use, even on a very cold day and the effectiveness of the tyre is its ability to key into the surface. You can often see steam coming off wet tyres, on very cold days. The temperature of that surface, provided it is dry, has little effect once that once the tyre has warmed up. |
So which ski resorts have forever dry roads in Peak winter season? When you're not moving very fast in winter conditions there isn't so much heat generated and snow / ice /slush cools the tyre down hence the need for a softer rubber compound and different tyre tread pattern / depth.
Snow doesn't hang around for long in the UK but here in the alps it can be below freezing for months and roads can be covered with compacted snow for weeks. Winter tyres are not a gimmick or a trend / fashion.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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robboj,
You might consider a smaller diameter alloy rim, say used on the lower spec of the same car, when getting a set of alloys and tyres. Large diameter alloys are design to reduce the lateral stiffness, by having a shorter rubber wall so that it deflects less, when you cornering hard. This feature is needed for summer driving but could be suicidal in the winter. Also winter tyres are not designed to travel at ultimate high speed of the vehicle so downgrading the speeding rating by one class is actually equally safe.
Ultr low profile tyres and big alloy rims are bad news for travelling on snow and icy ground.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| saikee wrote: |
robboj,
You might consider a smaller diameter alloy rim... Also winter tyres are not designed to travel at ultimate high speed of the vehicle so downgrading the speeding rating by one class is actually equally safe.
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Whilst everything you say here is true and commonsense, unfortunately you'd better check with your insurer before doing any of this. Mine said they wouldn't insure me for smaller rims despite being the manufactuers advice if you wish to fit snowchains and they said as the manufactuer used V rated tyres that's what I had to use. 
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saikee,
The 18" *is* the smallest diameter rim that fits the new shape X5, which is what roboj has.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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V grade tyres are rated to cope with speed up to 150mph and the manufacture warrant their vehicles compatible with such speed if the car has been designed for it. Thus if an owner wanting to travel at the maximum speed of the vehicle he/she must ensure every equipment matches the speed.
Since v rated or higher speed winter tyres are not available for many high performance cars with big alloy rims so according to the insuring companies these cars should not be used in snow winter condition.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
unfortunately you'd better check with your insurer before doing any of this.
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That's why I went with OEM wheels. That is the only thing my insurance wanted to confirm. i.e. not aftermarket wheels and the car can be purchased from the dealer with the same wheels (whether as an option or not). Also they didn't hit me for an extra "admin" payment, which was a refreshing change. The weird thing is they do want to know when I switch back to summer tyres.
Which insurance company wouldn't cover you for smaller wheels? Just so can avoid them.
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Update on the fines scenario:
This is a summary taken from the Oberbayerisch Volksblatt from yesterday 11.11.2010
Austria: Winter tyres from 1.11 to 15. April - Law and enforced.
Fines: min. 35 Euro but up to a MAX. 5000 Euro if you have some how caused/contributed by your negligence to an accident.
France: In the mountain areas where the blue road signs indicate "Pneus Niege" the use is mandatory. Max speed with chains on: 50kph
Fines: 90 Euro for no winter tyres and 35 Euro for not having any chains!
Czech Republic: winter tyres OR summer tyres with snow chains from 1.11.10 to 31.3.11 (period is set each year). Max speed with chains on 50kph
Fines: 80 Euro
Italy: Similar to France EXCEPT for the Aosta valley (Mont Blanc Tunnel route) where they have a local regulation requiring winter tyres from 15.10 to 15.4
Fines: 78 Euro but apparently about to be raised (according to the ADAC)
Switzerland: no general rule but some roads have a requirement of at least having snow chains available. Max speed with chains on 50kph
Fines: 70 Euro
Germany: No date yet fixed BUT winter tyres are going to be compulsory through Germany for the first time this winter. General consensus is that it will probably be 1.11 to March-ish but no decision has been taken yet.
Fines: Currently 20 Euro rising to 40 Euro if you cause a hazard. Already published that they will rise to 80 Euro as soon as the law is ratified.
Some interesting summaries are available on the ADAC web site, but unfortunately only available in German.
Hope this helps some of you. I'll update when the law is ratified. Up to the ratification you can obviously take your chances and hopefully have no problems. Just let us all know when you are taking to the road in your "safe" summer tyres and we'll make sure we avoid your route! 
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It's interesting that winter tyres are being advertised in the UK - on Classic FM - so consciousness is being raised. Seems unlikely that they'll be made compulsory but maybe more widely used, which would be a good thing.
In France the business about the blue signs is a bit of a farce, really, as they don 't seem to take them down in the summer - I drove past quite a few on nice sunny days in October. So in practice, what the signs mean is "this is a road on which you will be expected to be carrying winter equipment when it's snowy and will sometimes be required to use them" (ie the police sometimes stop cars and ensure everyone has chains on).
If I was French God I would consider making it mandatory to use the proper chaining areas too - rather than adopt a common approach which is "drive blithely past the chaining area, crossing the fingers, then booger up the entire road by slithering to a stop 200 yards up the hill and putting the damn things on in the middle of the road". So any car causing an obstruction by chaining up in the wrong place could be fined on the spot.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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It's really dangerous when the traffic has a mix of winter and summer tyres. People with summer tyres can't stop as fast, drive as fast, go round corners as fast and need to put traction devices on earlier. With mixed traffic, winter tyre drivers get frustrated and try to overtake summertyre drivers (esp when the summertyre driver is stuck in the middle of the road trying to get his chains on). Summertyre drivers often don't realize that their car can't go round corners as fast or take longer to stop.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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robboj,
I've been trying to get some Vredesteins tyres but the dealers listed on the Vredstein website say they don't deal with them any longer as they had supply and communication issues with Vredestein.
Does anyone know where I can get some 205/70 15 Snowtrac 3 tyres? I've looked at the usual websites but all seem to be out of stock.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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tafflondon,
Have you tried tyremen.co.uk?
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robboj, http://www.prestigetyres.co.uk/ stock Vredstein. Asked them about the winter tyres earlier this year when I was getting some new tyres. Good prices too. Probably worth calling them to get a price and see if they have in stock. Based in Busby so not too far from sunny Paisley
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You know it makes sense.
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tafflondon, I got mysnowtrac 3's 195/60 15 from tyremen.co.uk last week no problems and great service
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
France: In the mountain areas where the blue road signs indicate "Pneus Niege" the use is mandatory.
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Not quite. 
The blue sign indicates that chains must be used. There may be a rectangular sign underneath saying 'pneus neiges admis', which means that snow tyres will suffice and you don't have to go grovelling about in the slush.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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boabski, Cheers, I'll give them a call.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Do they have a "sauf (pour) pneus niege" sign underneath the blue sign then?
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Yes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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UPDATE:
the law was ratified on Friday 26th November and comes into effect tomorrow, 29th November. It is not "dated" as per Austria, it is related to the prevailing weather conditions.
Fines: STARTING at 40 Euro and one penalty point. But if you cause an obstruction (not necessarily an accident) then the fines start from 80 Euro. I'll translate and update the details later and post them. Those who can read German there is an excellent summary on the ADAC home page.
As I drove back from the UK last night, non-stop, getting back here at 08:30, I'm knackered and am too tired to even attempt it!
Now where is that yawning smiley Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm getting my winter tyres put on this week as I've got a couple of trips to do to Germany in the next month and although 40 euros is a drop in the ocean, the weather is most definitely on the turn and they'll hang me out to dry if they catch me!
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@Samerberg Sue: *looks at the changed threat title: Anything in particular against Dutch people?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fly in Munich in February booked a hire car via Carhire 3000. Can I take it as fact that a German car hire company (third party company they will used by Carhire 3000) comply with this new law?
Also a general question about hire car’s? Booked a Ford Mondeo estate which has the option of ski rack? Does anyone know what this is? A rack for the skies to clip into or what I need the roof rack bars to load my Ski/Snowboard equipment onto? No description available from Carhire!
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You know it makes sense.
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altis, Skeg289, question it if they list it as an EXTRA as they are obliged to offer only vehicles that comply with the local (i.e. in this case German) legislation. They cannot for example give you a vehicle that does not have valid insurance or no TÜV (German MOT) and charge you extra for having these as they are legal requirements for a vehicle to be on the road.
I suspect the charges will just go up "in line with inflation and other ongoing costs", in which case you will just have to suck it and see!
Skeg289, with regards to the rack - send them a mail and ask. All the personnel have to be able to read and speak English so it does not matter if you do not have any German. I would suspect it is a bog-standard fitting on to the roof rails if it has them. Assume otherwise that it is not lockable and that you should not leave your stuff on there unattended. It may be a Thule type with a lock, they seem fairly common here and hereabouts.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Skeg289 wrote: |
| Fly in Munich in February booked a hire car via Carhire 3000. Can I take it as fact that a German car hire company (third party company they will used by Carhire 3000) comply with this new law? |
You cannot be sure that the car will have winter tyres unless you have arranged that with the hire company (and probably paid extra). Cars don't have to have winter tyres in Germany (all the time) - only when conditions are wintry. I suspect that car-hire companies will not have equipped their whole fleets with winter tyres, certainly not in this first year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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espri, the law has changed and is in power as of today!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Samerberg Sue, The law has changed, but it does not say you are required to have winter tyres. You only need to have them, if conditions make them necessary (e.g. snow, ice)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Eyeopener,
I believe it should be perfectly legal to keep a car in Germany with only summer tyres. Just don't take the car out when there is snow or ice. If one gets caught then the law will apply. It is all to do with the owner ensuring having the right equipment for the condition.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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As usual people outside of a country trying to interpret the laws of others to suit their needs and desires! If you can read German (I know the majority of Dutch can, I can read Dutch sufficiently to get the gist of things if not the fine details due to the similarity in the languages) may I refer you all to the ADAC (German motoring association akin to the AA/RAC) home page:
http://www.adac.de/reise_freizeit/aktuelle_nachrichten/detail.aspx?ItpId=5362&PagingIds=wucNachrichtStartseite&ReturnUrl=rfPi2tRi1UXY3GyU3GyZrTTi3MNaDBgOwtRXEA__ (sorry for the long link, I've forgotten how to hide it)
An extract and translation for those without any German (or Dutch):
Definition der Wetterverhältnisse
Schneeglätte, Schneematsch, Glatteis und Reifglätte zählen zu den winterlichen
Wetterverhältnissen, die die Verkehrssicherheit beeinträchtigen und auf die der Gesetzestext Bezug nimmt. Verursacht werden diese Wetterverhältnisse z. B. durch Schneefall (inkl. Schneeregen und Schneegriesel), Eiskörner, Eisregen bzw. gefrierenden Regen, gefrierenden Nebel und Schneeverwehungen. Diese Wetterlagen können auch bereits bei Temperaturen über dem Gefrierpunkt auftreten und so zu einer verpflichtenden Verwendung von Winterreifen führen.
Definition of Winter Conditions
Hard-packed snow, slush, black ice and hoar frost count as being part of the winter conditions listed as having an impact on vehicle safety and to which the text of the law refers. These weather conditions are caused by, for example, snowfall (including sleet and snow/ice grains) ice particles, freezing rain, freezing fog and drifting snow. These weather conditions can also occur at temperatures above freezing and therefore lead to the obligation to use winter tyres.
This is taken from the ADAC web site and is a summary, not the exact letter of the law.
Anyone attempting to travel by car, motor bike, HGV or any other wheeled motorised transport, through Bavaria or any of the other mountain areas of Germany (Black Forest, Harz, Eiffel, Mittelgebirge) without winter tyres during the winter months, i.e. to go skiing, is looking for trouble. You will also be stopped on entering Austria by the police who love issuing their little "Billets doux" to car owners/drivers, particularly those with German and Dutch number plates. While the Germans declined to go down the dated path, the Austrians did - it's law to have winter tyres on your vehicle if you are using it on their roads between 1st November to 15th April, as well as carrying snow chains if you are going into the mountains proper.
However, if you feel you don't need winter tyres or chains and your driving style matches your ego, go ahead and try it. At least issue us with a general warning and plans of your intended route so we can avoid the chance of your car meeting with one of our cars 
I'm not going to argue the toss any more with any outsiders, i.e. non-German residents, any more. I have kept my promise to update and keep those interested/affected informed. What you now choose to do is your right, but please do not try and convince others that you are right and the rest of the German-speaking world is wrong.
If the conditions I experienced at the weekend in SW England are typical of what is in store for you in general in the UK this winter, I would be looking at getting winter tyres fitted ASAP. I was glad to have them in icy, snowy hilly Bristol and so were my passengers whose car could not cope with the conditions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Samerberg Sue, I can't help thinking that having a date boundary avoids any confusion as to whether they are required or not 
But don't worry I have my winter tyres on and my route doesn't go via Germany.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Here is a Google translation of the ADAC news page:
Linky
Samerberg Sue, there is no reference to a start and end date. Instead there are definitions of winter conditions and winter tyres - which, apparently, have not been mentioned in German law before. As I read it, if there's snow etc on the ground then you must have winter tyres. But if there isn't then they're not mandatory.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 29-11-10 23:24; edited 1 time in total
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| espri, the law has changed and is in power as of today! |
Yes, Sue, and what I wrote describes the current situation.
| ADAC wrote: |
Generell gefordert werden Winterreifen auch in Zukunft nicht. Eine ausdrückliche
Pflicht wird aber für denjenigen gelten, der mit dem Auto bei „Glatteis,
Schneeglätte, Schneematsch, Eis –oder Reifglätte auf der Fahrbahn“ unterwegs ist. |
= Winter tyres are not required generally in the future. An explicit duty (to have winter tyres), however, applies to anyone driving a car when there is "ice, hard-packed snow, slush or frost on the road".
There is no law which means that car-hire companies must put winter tyres on their cars. The responsibility lies with the driver who is required to have the winter tyres when the conditions are "wintry" or not use the car at such times.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
While the Germans declined to go down the dated path, the Austrians did - it's law to have winter tyres on your vehicle if you are using it on their roads between 1st November to 15th April, as well as carrying snow chains if you are going into the mountains proper.
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Sue, this isn't true in Austria. There the law is "situative", as now in Germany. In Austria, as in Germany, winter tyres are only required (by law) when the roads are "wintry" (as you described). There is also no law I know of about snow chains (except that you must not use them if they would damage the road surface). There may be roads with temporary requirements for chains, depending on the conditions. I doubt very many Austrians carry chains around with them (I do - though I've never used them).
It is certainly sensible to have winter tyres when driving to a ski resort. If you don't have them, you may not be able to use the car (legally). However, winter tyres are not a panacea for all driving problems in winter. My car regularly skids, despite winter tyres and four-wheel drive. What is essential is to adapt your driving to the conditions and your equipment.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Samerberg Sue,
Hi
I have only driven in Germany a few times as it's not on the normal routes that I use. But - hope you can help - what signs do the German police look out for.
The normal Snowflake that is put on car/suv/4x4/etc tyres is almost impossible to get for vehicles over 4 tons. I have just bought a fleet on minibuses and have put (at a crazy cost) Michelin Alpine Aglis tyres on them all. The minibuses are custom made Italian Irisbus (17 seaters) which are much bigger and heaver than the standard minibuses you see flying around the UK, eg. Renault or Ford type which weight in around 2 to 3 tons. I got the Irisbus's as there are lots more garages for them in Italy than other busses so spares and repairs are much simpler if needed.
I did write to Michelin before I bought the busses and this is the answer I got.
Thank you for your enquiry about Agilis Alpin Winter Tyres.
The Agilis Alpin is marked M&S for Mud & Snow - so for Europe this marking is acceptable.
There is no legal requirement at the moment in Europe.
This is the mark they have on the tyres
Are they legal in Germany ???
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Wayne, your tyres will be OK (I think). The ADAC web site says:
| ADAC wrote: |
"geeignete Bereifung": Nunmehr bezieht sich das ausschließlich auf Winterreifen mit
entsprechender Kennzeichnung (M+S bzw. das Schneeflocken-Symbol). Dazu zählen
auch „Ganzjahresreifen“! |
i.e. M+S or snowflake is OK (or All-Year-tyres). Actually, the official (German?) snowflake symbol is different from the one in your picture; it has snowflakes and mountains.
The law for heavy vehicles is anyhow a different one than that for cars, though I think that both are now effectively the same (previously there was already a requirement in Austria for winter tyres for HGV -from 3,5 tons- and for having chains available - see this site; I believe Germany is much the same, haven't checked though).
I also feel that Samerberg Sue is rather exaggerating the police's interest in the whole matter. If your vehicle doesn't cause a traffic jam or accident, I doubt there is more than a 1 in a 1000000 chance of you being checked (occasional special actions excepted) - even if you're Dutch
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FAQ
