 Poster: A snowHead
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I still have my Salomon SX94 rear entries. Perfectly happy with them. Very comfortable and good enough for my level of skiing. Can have them buckled up all day. Don't even unbuckle for lunch.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I've got an old pair of rear-entries, Nordica 857 I think, my first pair of boots ever! They're at the in-laws in Madrid and if I ski in the local ski stations there I still use them. Not exactly performance boots but fine for a weekend of not too taxing skiing!! I also have an old pair of long straight Salomon Equipes there, which still ski pretty well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| JT wrote: |
The intermediate plateau definitely exists IMO. It is where a skier gets competant on red and blues and can get a lot of mileage ( literally ) from their holiday.
However, they struggle on anything tricky or technical. This is because they have hit a comfort zone where they can surely get around the mountain but have got lazy and can or will not push themselves anymore. This does not mean this is bad as the skier might be quite happy here. It only becomes an issue if the skier wants to push on and for that there will be some hard work involved. |
From my experience (keen 2-week skiier), that's not true at all - I realise some people may fall into a "comfort zone", but for me personally, the excitement in skiing is in trying to do something just a little beyond your reach. So when fast blues were becoming comfortable towards the end of my first week, I wanted to know how to handle the icy reds.. Then when i got more comfortable on that kind of slope, it was all about hitting the steeper & moguled runs (although Epaule du charvet on my first day in Val D this year was possibly a bit too optimistic  ). Now i'm the first to admit that my technique isn't flawless - but it's solid enough to keep me in control, and what works on the blues seems to work on the blacks. And that just gives another challenge - learning to do the same things more smoothly and stylishly.
I think a large part of the "plateau" is not knowing what you want to do with your time on skis, and pheraps not having the confidence to try something a bit harder than what you're used to.
Rob
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Could someone please tell me what the intermediate plateau is ? I'm an intermediate and am happy to cruise reds and blues. I'd like to do some off piste, but don't want to expend much more energy! I noticed this year (from last year) that there was a huge jump in the ski school standard. For instance going from group 4 in Lech to group 3b, meant we had to ski a lot faster and do a lot of jumping into deep snow. Is this the jump to advanced skiing? Is it really only the domain of the young and super-fit, or can a feeble 42yr old get there ?
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erica2004,
I think the intermediate plateau that people speak of (and if you read back down this post you will see lots of interpretations of it) is not so much not wanting to push yourself as you are happy doing what you do, it is more wanting to improve but feeling you have reached a learning plateau, ie. you're trying to get better but don't seem to be making much progress.
Teaching and sports psychologists speak of peaks, troughs and plateaus - different stages in your training / learning. Ie athletes will aim to peak for a major event. When learning many sports there tends to be a very steep initial learning curve - for example in your first few weeks skiing you go from nothing to basic parallel in a short space of time, after which the learning curve flattens out and it takes longer to make less noticeable improvements. I believe this is the "intermediate plateau" of which people speak - it is not neccessarily a bad thing, just a natural stage in your learning progression. Of course, good instrution will help you progress more quickly, whatever stage you are at.
Above all I think it depends more on mental attitude, and what you personally are hoping to achieve. If you are happy to cruise reds and blues and would rather not be jumping into deep snow, then do what you enjoy, skiing is after all about having fun. Although you are in a sense choosing to stay at the intermediate level and not push yourself further, that does not mean you are not capable of advancing, and so is not a "learning plateau" as such.
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Hi beanie - I did read all the posts and I don't understand why you would reach a 'learning plateau.' With skiing you just learn more as you go along. If you keep having lessons, you keep getting better. My point was that the jump to true advanced skiing requires you to get a lot more physical, as you venture off piste and take on the mogul fields. As a 7 week skier I have started tackling all this harder stuff, but can't quite make up my mind if I really want to. It's not so much a matter of 'can't' , but more like 'can't really be bothered'. The steepness of slopes isn't really an issue because if you can ski a blue 'properly', you can ski a black.
I think a major leap for me was when I stopped throwing my upper body and arms forward (when the ski instructors shout 'get your weight forward') and started standing taller and relaxing. I also stopped forcing the skis to turn and let them do it on their own. I also stopped holding my arms in front of me. I stopped 'facing the valley' and started looking where I was going. I stopped worrying about where to turn and started looking for bumps to turn around/jump over. I'd like to practice at this level for a bit, and go gently into off-piste, but I worry about taking clinics/lessons at my level because they are either a)too aggressive b)too easy. So, what's the answer?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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erica2004,
You do learn more as you go along - but as you progress to more advanced levels of skiing the speed at which you learn more slows down. Think back to how long it took you to go from not knowing how to put skis on, to being able to link turns on a gentle slope - probably only a few days. But to progress from being able to ski a blue with relatively good technique to being able to ski almost any slope with ease and excellent technique is going to take considerably longer.
More advanced skiing definitely does require you to be more physical - you certainly can't cruise the moguls, particularly not when you are learning! Being able to progress to this more advanced level probably has a lot to do with finding the right instrutor. If you find yourself with a "gung ho" and over confident group, whilst you feel a lot more cautious, it could understandably be quite off-putting. Whereas being in a group where you do not feel pushed enough is equally frustrating.
A solution would probably be to invest in some private lessons with a sympatheitc instructor. Then you can concentrate on what you choose, at the best pace for you. Not cheap though!
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| I worry about taking clinics/lessons at my level because they are either a)too aggressive b)too easy. So, what's the answer? |
Easy!
Click the link in my profile.
Go to a clinic where there are groups of very keen students, of differing abilities.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks - good advice 
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erica2004, just to clarify on easiski,'s and others well considered posts. I posed the thread because someone elsewhere posted an "I'm stuck on the intermediate plateau," comment and I've heard the same or similar from others - but stated at though this was an effect/region/etc. that was out of their control (and hence an excuse for not progressing, etc.)
A common situation would be a comment like, "Oh, I'd be out there in the park/powder/bumps/cliffs/et al. but I can't because I'm stuck (sic) on the I-P."
I just wanted to measure the depth of opinion as to whether this was a. a reasonable thing to refer to or b. not.
As easiski and others say, as long as you're having fun doing your thing on the mountain, getting what You want out of "our" sports, then fantastic. If you're not, then practice and, better, lessons are almost certainly the answer. Nothing too clever or smart there, but also no free lunches!
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
A common situation would be a comment like, "Oh, I'd be out there in the park/powder/bumps/cliffs/et al. but I can't because I'm stuck (sic) on the I-P."
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It now seems there are two IPs..
1. The one you mentioned above. The person who is MENTALLY stuck on the IP - they would like to progress, but lessons etc, just haven't clicked for them, the brain keeps saying "can't". Sometimes they take lessons, and will pick up something that will stick with them for a few days, but then they'll have a bad run or two, and go back to their "can't" mode of before.
2. The "I'm happy where I am"/"I don't need any more lessons" people. They will spend most of their ski trip on blues/reds, maybe do one or two blacks, and they believe they are great skiers. They don't want to admit weakness and have lessons - cause lessons are for beginners! Yet, perhaps if they had a couple of good privates/small group lessons it would mean they could ski more slopes better, using less energy to have more fun. They would also say that they are not on the IP, because, in their eyes, they are an advanced or expert skier.
At a guess, 75% of British skiers with more than 10 weeks under their belts probably fall into category 2. (some will come up with excuses for not taking lessons, such as not having the time, etc, but it is actually a lack of desire to improve that limits them)
For those in category 1, I believe part of the solution will come by breaking away from their problems. They need to try a new resort, a new instructor, and new friends! If you always stick with the same resort, the same ski school, the same friends, then you'll end up stuck in the same rut. By stepping away from your current comfort zone, you have new possibilities to improve - the new resort doesn't have that one black run you never ski well, your new friends aren't trying to go down the same runs, nor are you picking up their bad habits, and the new instructor may put a different light on your problem areas, and they may be able to say the right words which just click into place, or show the move that really works for you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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6-8 weeks...!!! Thank god for that, I hope I'm passed it.
Slopes and runs are really just about what you fancy skiing and if you have what you need to ski it.
It shouldn't be a competition, it you want to push on and learn something new then fine, but it will probably take some sort of effort
and committment on the skiers part. The most restrictive part of skiing is not trying things, fear can be an issue as can fitness or inclination.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, I do agree with most of what you say, but I feel that it's a shame that the majority of British skiers go to a different resort every time, and therefore never get to know the locals or the mountain well. I skied in Wengen once (and frequently twice) a year from age 3 to age 20 (first job ski teaching). I've been back twice since and it was great! After a 10 year gap I can walk into a shop and the owner knows me, welcomes me and sends me into the back to see his brother!! You never find this if you change all the time. I also like to know the mountain, then you can go the run you feel like when you feel like it. I've been here 15 years and while there aren't any pistes I haven't skied, by the same token there are loads of off piste routes I've never done. Comfort level??? Not sure about that.
ps: many of my client-friends go off every other year to another resort, have lessons and then have to come back to re-build the confidence/technique that they lost last year!!! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, my concern is twofold:
1. The familiarity of a resort - fears/memories can be a stumbling block.
2. Why always go to the same place year in, year out, when there's hundreds of other places worth exploring? (unless you're the kind of person who doesn't want to risk finding somewhere better than where they are?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, I don see your point, and certainly if you have concerns about certain runs in certain resorts, then it's probably best to take a break from that resort. However, if it's just exploring I can see new places being fun, but there's a lot to be said for "belonging" as well! I don't say NEVER go to another resort, but rather, that it is great to get to know the locals and the area really well, which you certainly can't do in a week or two. I now have many client-friends who've bought apartments here, and love it. They come back, their favourite bar tenders are pleased to see them ditto restaurants. They know which to go to. Their neighbours invite them for drinks/dinner - they're beginning to belong here. I have one friend who's very short, and buys lots of clothes in one particular shop here - she's welcomed like a long lost cousin. All this is really nice, and until you've experienced it you can't compare - ask DGOrf or CrazySkierJules etc. They just love certain places - as I do, and it's a shame that national habits should prevent so many other people from having the same pleasure.
ps: from the coaching point of view it can be a major pain if someone goes off and has lessons that you don't agree with. Many instructors don't think long term, because of the resort-jumping, but I'm sure most good teachers/coaches try to take the long term view with most people.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, I guess I'm just someone who likes to be adventurous, to see new places, and learn new things. It means that when someone asks "where is a good resort", I can base my opinion of one resort on how it compares with others. I've read threads in forums where someone will champion one resort, and say how it is the best in the world. Then you ask where else they've been, and you discover the answer is nowhere!
It's like people who always buy the same brand of car, or always order the same wine, or same meal at restaurants.
That's not the kind of person I am. Yes, I have food and wine that I like, but I also enjoy trying new and different things. I guess some just stick to Chicken Maryland and Chateau Neuf du Pape.
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| erica2004 wrote: |
| I have a hankering to go somewhere where I can practice some off piste on gentle slopes. If I was given a huge snowy bowl to play in for a fortnight I'd be a happy bunny. But I don't know where to find one! |
Vail will give you 5 snowy bowls to play in, Snowbird/Alta will give you Mineral Basin, Whistler will give you Harmony bowl, Sunburnt bowl, Winter Park has Timberline bowl, Copper has a couple of back bowls. All pretty snow sure, and all with plenty of blue/red terrain. (and steeper stuff not too far away)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wear The Fox Hat, Hmmm, as ever thought provoking.
I think I agree with your cat 1. - The I-P as a "limiting belief". "I don't get better quickly enough so I can't get better". As you say, if you always do the same things you're going to get the same outcomes. However, what you change I guess depends on the individual. I agree with Easiski that if you find somewhere you like, then often knowing the routine can help. Equally, all thee valleys and no argentiere makes Jack a dull boy.
For me, Morzine has been a spiritual home for a long time. I know when I haven't had enough of a fix of it. However, I love exploring new places and try and get at least one or two new stations or areas in each year. But I'm lucky enough to be able to devote a lot of weekends to alpine commuting and to have a partner who is as passionate about skiing as I am. If I was restricted to one or two 7 day package holidaysper winter perhaps I would behave differently; I can understand why people often don't go back to the same place. That said, nearly as bad a crime as claiming I-P-itus are folks who comment, "We were in such and such a place last year. The snow was crap. We're never going back."
I'm not so sure about your category 2. I have observed many people in that mode of behaviour, but that's not the I-P I'm thinking of, in that they're not using it as an excuse for not being better.
erica2004, in Europe you often have to be just plain lucky to get really good and easy off piste, but an easy to ski and easy to find snow type is spring snow. So, when the snow's good, try it out. Take an off piste lesson. Grab little just off piste stashes whenever you can. You'd be amazed at how much fun you can have just to the side of the slope. Or even just at the edges of the piste itself!.
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It sounds alot to me like those suggesting it is nothing more than mental, are correct. I get the strange feeling that anyone who is confident and loves to try harder and harder terrain will not claim to have hit a plateau until they actually hit world number 1 where they cant get better!
Adam
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's pretty plain from all the posts that an intermediate plateau does exist for many, but only because they allow it to through lack of inclination/opportunity/commitment to progress. But as David Murdoch posted, he was asking if there was such a zone/phase one passed through when despite inclination/opportunity/commitment one simply stagnated for a while before (hopefully) continuing the journey (*if I've understood correctly*). I think there might be for some people. However, I think my progress is stepwise. Not much then a significant step, not much then another step up. More intermediate terraces than intermediate plateau. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, I agree about needing the home away from home. Although we love heading off to new resorts, we also love just as much the trip to Serre Che.
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slikedges,
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More intermediate terraces than intermediate plateau.
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Do those terraces have deck chairs with waiter service? 
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| That said, nearly as bad a crime as claiming I-P-itus are folks who comment, "We were in such and such a place last year. The snow was crap. We're never going back." |
I'll always try to give a resort two holidays before I'd write it off. As yet, I can't think of any resort I've spent a week in that I wouldn't go back to, but I would sooner return to some than others.
| David Murdoch wrote: |
I'm not so sure about your category 2. I have observed many people in that mode of behaviour, but that's not the I-P I'm thinking of, in that they're not using it as an excuse for not being better.
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Yeah, they aren't people who use it as an excuse. They are happy to be where they are, believing they are great skiers, and would feel insulted if someone suggested they take a lesson to improve - this occurs in people who have learned on straight skis, and now own more shaped ones, but still ski with their boots locked together and skidding most turns. It's not a case that they are skiing badly, but they could ski so much better, if only their ego would let them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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snowbunny, Aahhh! Now those terraces I try never to leave.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| They are happy to be where they are, believing they are great skiers, and would feel insulted if someone suggested they take a lesson to improve - this occurs in people who have learned on straight skis, and now own more shaped ones, but still ski with their boots locked together and skidding most turns. It's not a case that they are skiing badly, but they could ski so much better, if only their ego would let them. |
I'm sorry I think that's just plain unfair. I've met just as many people who learnt on carvers/parabolics who suffer from the same stupid misconception, and they're usually the ones who're a danger to others on the slope. That's not an intermediate plateau, the people you're talking about aren't plateaued in their minds at all. They think they're brilliant and spend every evening boasting about their prowess in the pub!
In point of fact a great many very experienced skiers who learn't "old school" are keen to learn how to deal with carving skis.
In general two technical faults cause a plateau: rotation and failure to flex the ankles, causing standing on the heels, flat skis, weight too far back and the resultant loss of balance. Mostly these faults result from lack of lessons (or poor lessons) at an early stage, and the consequent lack of understanding.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| easiski wrote: |
I'm sorry I think that's just plain unfair. I've met just as many people who learnt on carvers/parabolics who suffer from the same stupid misconception, and they're usually the ones who're a danger to others on the slope. That's not an intermediate plateau, the people you're talking about aren't plateaued in their minds at all. They think they're brilliant and spend every evening boasting about their prowess in the pub!
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OK. Fair point. But I still believe these people (no matter what ski they learned on) are plateaued - they could improve, but are not prepare to.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Yes the weight too far back problem is very common, you can see it all over the place, what's wierd is that so many people do this, you'd think that even the worst instructor would have spotted it and corrected the stance, but it just does not happen
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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D G Orf, I wonder how many people are in the back seat due to poorly fitted/adjusted boots?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think a lot of this stems from being told to "bend ze knees" and not having that qualified. If you bend only your knees (which is possible in ski boots) you look like you are sitting on the loo!
However, if you try this without ski boots on you find it is impossible to maintain your balance whilst bending only your knees - you have to flex your ankles also. This is where skiing with your boots totally unbuckled can help - though obviously only with skiers who are good enough not to injure themselves whilst trying!
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Wear The Fox Hat, At least some I would imagine
beanie1, I always tell people to bend the ankles but to keep the body upright, that almost always works
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Wear The Fox Hat, Why would leaning back be initiated by poorly fitting boots? Only interested in that as a beginner I still do it but assumed my stance was all to cock as instructors tell me to lean forward more -- just looking for a different excuse really!
Personally I will be delighted to reacxh the intermediate plateau ... seems a long steep climb from where I am.
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eEvans, if your feet are not a perfect shape (and whoose are ?) you may benefit by having the boots altered to give you a better fit, e.g I have flatish feet and find I get a much better stance and more comfort with heel lifts under the insole
Also some people have too stiff a boot for their strength which forces their leggs to remain upright
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eEvans, Telling people to lean forward, without explaining HOW to lean forward is not remotely helpful. The ususal result is shoulders forward and down and bottom back and down - worst thing possible. You need to keep your hips forward and stand up as D G Orf, says, but flex the ankle.
Wear The Fox Hat, I don't think badly fitting boots will cause leaning back, but too stiff boots certainly can. Also, many people have just never been told what to do - sorry indictment on my profession. 
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Isn't leaning back caused by fear of the steep (to a beginner) slope?
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FAQ
snowHeads 
And I imagine that other relative newcomers to the sport don't fit into these catagories either. It is different for us because we have skied the 'new way' from the get-go. We haven't had previous years of skiing a different way. And frankly, I'm tired of being pushed to the limit all the time, without being able to take stock and practice what I've learned. However, looking back, I'm glad the instructors I've had have been tough. (e.g. 'You don't need to stop to go to the toilet - it's just a habit...!! and 'I think it is necessary that you do theeese'.
The 'Consolidation Phase' (aptly named by easiski) 